Does Daniel 9:26b-27 Prophesy About End Time Events?

[WilliamL]

26 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I'm not sure Jesus said, "...as spoken of by Daniel the prophet IN CHAPTER 12..."

The literal meaning of Jesus's words are, "the abomination of desolation, the/τὸ

one having been spoken [of]/ῥηθὲν (singular aorist participle)

by Daniel..."

The Greek definite article τὸ/"the" is exclusive. Jesus was not speaking in general terms about abominations of desolation; rather, He was pointing to a specific prophecy. That being Daniel 12:11, the only prophecy by Daniel about an End Time abomination of desolation.

Edited March 4, 2020 by WilliamL

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well...

"At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate each other"

"At that time' seems to denote a specific time frame. So then at the time when there is some significant and unerring understanding of v 4-8 'many will fall away and hate'

"and many false prophets will arise and mislead many"

Go to YouTube. This is everywhere concerning doctrine in general and the rapture and return of Jesus specifically. But I don't think these prophecies are fully realized yet. Verses 4-8 are just too general and could be applied since the Fall and most certainly to the prophecies of Daniel 8 which occurred circa 500 to 160 BC. 

I think we are going to see this manifest in eye opening fashion at some point. 

"I think we are going to see this manifest in eye opening fashion at some point."

Absolutely! In my opinion it will be soon and "...as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

I am watching what is happening in Israel-mapping out (dividing) the land. The timing looks like the Israelis are planning to exert sovereignty over these annexations when it may coincide with their country's rebirth anniversary.  Certain Europeans claim they will try to force a vote in the U N on recognizing Palestine (with indefensible borders for Israel). 

Their chief has threatened the ability to send at least 1.5 million people into Israel to simply take over the areas they can. It forces the evacuation of many Jews and shows the woman of Rev. 12 fleeing to the wilderness. This will lead to conflict, one that will be joined by others throughout the region, ISIS has said their target after Syria will be Israel. These things will escalate to the point (perhaps nukes) so that the world leaders will impose a cease fire...AND a new nation-Palestine. It will have to be enforced by"peacekeepers" making Jerusalem be trodden under the feet of the Gentiles for 42 months and bringing the 2 witnesses on the scene by the Feast of Tabernacles. These witnesses will of course remain for their 42 month period, yet the anti-Christ will begin his reign a few months after their ministry begins.

Ya may not have expected all that, but we'll see soon enough, but meanwhile we keep hoping it will be quite far in the distance.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

"I think we are going to see this manifest in eye opening fashion at some point."

Absolutely! In my opinion it will be soon and "...as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

I am watching what is happening in Israel-mapping out (dividing) the land. The timing looks like the Israelis are planning to exert sovereignty over these annexations when it may coincide with their country's rebirth anniversary.  Certain Europeans claim they will try to force a vote in the U N on recognizing Palestine (with indefensible borders for Israel). 

Their chief has threatened the ability to send at least 1.5 million people into Israel to simply take over the areas they can. It forces the evacuation of many Jews and shows the woman of Rev. 12 fleeing to the wilderness. This will lead to conflict, one that will be joined by others throughout the region, ISIS has said their target after Syria will be Israel. These things will escalate to the point (perhaps nukes) so that the world leaders will impose a cease fire...AND a new nation-Palestine. It will have to be enforced by"peacekeepers" making Jerusalem be trodden under the feet of the Gentiles for 42 months and bringing the 2 witnesses on the scene by the Feast of Tabernacles. These witnesses will of course remain for their 42 month period, yet the anti-Christ will begin his reign a few months after their ministry begins.

Ya may not have expected all that, but we'll see soon enough, but meanwhile we keep hoping it will be quite far in the distance.

At least the above scenario is plausible. Some of the takes I have seen....

I have long been convinced the witnesses arrive early. It seems from the way our Father did things in the past the witnesses have to show up well in advance to warn everyone about their behavior and the consequences thereof.

I don't know how it will all shake out, I have my opinions, I do feel we are on the verge.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The literal meaning of Jesus's words are, "the abomination of desolation, the/τὸ

one having been spoken [of]/ῥηθὲν (singular aorist participle)

by Daniel..."

The Greek definite article τὸ/"the" is exclusive. Jesus was not speaking in general terms about abominations of desolation; rather, He was pointing to a specific prophecy. That being Daniel 12:11, the only prophecy by Daniel about an End Time abomination of desolation.

Uh huh...

Or Jesus was pointing to a concept; a horrific pall of appalling detestable things.

Jesus was the one giving the prophecy. In Daniel 12 there isn't a prophecy about the A of D. The Lord used the A of D as a marker; a point in time used to show a beginning of another time period. The fact of the A of D was established earlier. As far as I'm concerned Dan 12 doesn't contain a prophecy about the A of D at all. While it's mentioned the real prophecy is the answer to the question, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these things?" Daniel isn't asking about the A of D alone, he inquires about all, "...of these things..." That would send us back to a previous mention about the A of D, in Chapter 11.

"They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation." This is a prophecy of the event. This tells us who and what.

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days." This is a prophecy of the length of time from that event to an end. 

The event is prophesied in Ch. 11, where Ch. 12 uses the event as a marker in a timeline.

Even so that isn't the point. Jesus said, "When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him understand)" I do believe the understanding here is not about the physical act of setting up an idol, or multiple idols, or the sacrifice of unclean animals on the altar, or any other evil act in the house of God; it's the blasphemy and rebellion against God in His own house. It's the spiritual rebellion, usurpation of power, and mockery of our Father's exalted status that is the focus of the words of Jesus.

So when you rightly point out the definite article as distinguishing this act as a singular act, set apart from all others as in "this one and no others", it's spiritual rebellion in view. An end to the liturgy and the erecting of an idol is the physical manifestation of the evil spirit usurping the throne of God and is what the definite article points toward.

"...spoken of..." is inclusive. Whatever and whenever. It literally means 'to speak of'. So then every spoken word concerning the subject at hand is relevant. Daniel Ch.9, 11, and 12 are all important to our understanding of the A of D in answer to who, what, where, when and why. We should not discount any evidence that increases our understanding, especially when we are told to understand what is spoken of through a specific person.

It's interesting that in all 4 mentions in scripture the A of D is described the same way; horrifying detestable thing. That is an emotional response to some act, not the act itself. The Greek relates a moral horror is what the abomination elicits as the act probably does not cause a literal stench.

"When you see...standing...run..." What about this precludes relevancy of Dan 9? Nothing.

 Would not the evidence of the act from the past give insight to what thing is standing where? Yes.

 Would it matter when the past act occurred or was committed by whom? No.

 Is Daniel 9 a prophecy of the A of D at the end of times? Yes.

There is ample evidence that in the time of Antiochus IV every aspect of the prophecy did not come to pass, and the reference Jesus made was clearly about the end, and all testimony of the act is relevant  near to the return of the Lord.

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

, I do feel we are on the verge.

I did see that stuff about the re-dedication /Maccabees but I still want to find the one I saw before. The more complete explanation. I will continue looking today

[Uriah]

Yes! It is about the end time events.

Some folks around here may find this repetitive, hopefully not overly so, but the fact that Jesus declared the AoD will be seen "in the Holy place" is huge. Hence, the widespread belief in a anti-Christ temple to be built. The Jews reject this, pointing to the scriptures saying the BRANCH (Messiah) will build it. It defies all scripture to say they will accept a man who is a blasphemer of ALL that is called God or worshiped, much less allow him or anyone who is NOT a high priest to enter such a place. So, this event has not happened yet but the foreshadowing of it has indeed taken place. 

It comes about from a mis-read of Paul saying he will show himself... as God sits in the Temple of God and thinking it means a location instead of the manner of his showing/depicting of himself. 

In one dramatic scene we can see the fulfillment of the words of Daniel (on the wing (border) of the temple, Jesus (in the Holy place), Paul (as God sits in the Temple), and John (an image that can speak). Sorry, a crude artwork.

 

[WilliamL]

On 3/5/2020 at 3:29 AM, Diaste said:

In Daniel 12 there isn't a prophecy about the A of D. ... As far as I'm concerned Dan 12 doesn't contain a prophecy about the A of D at all.

Standard translation of Daniel 12:11-12

Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily/continual service shall be taken away, and an abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the 1335 days.

Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12

And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.

Taken from my blog here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

I don't see how you can't see this verse as an End Times' prophecy of an abomination of desolation. It is the only End Times' prophecy of an abomination of desolation found in Daniel.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/10/2020 at 9:43 AM, WilliamL said:

Standard translation of Daniel 12:11-12

Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily/continual service shall be taken away, and an abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the 1335 days.

I don't see how you can't see this verse as an End Times' prophecy of an abomination of desolation. It is the only End Times' prophecy of an abomination of desolation found in Daniel.

 

 

I do. It is. About the end I mean. But I see it as more of a marker than the actual event. The question is, 

“How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”

How long? We are not concerned about "what" here, but "when". The wonders were the times of distress and the resurrections in the preceding passage. The following is the answer:

 

7 "And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these things?”  

9 “Go on your way, Daniel,” he replied, “for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.

11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. 

12 Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."

I could be wrong but the passage isn't concerned about the fact of the A of D here but the duration of the 'wonders'. The angel answers and uses the A of D as a marker for the beginning of the period totaling of 1,335 days. This is more a prophecy of the duration from a point in time and not the occurrence of the time marker. 

My point is I see nothing about when the A of D occurs or who does it in Daniel. All I see is the fact it will happen. In Jesus words we are to look to Daniel for the information and we are given the insight though Jesus' prayer for understanding. In my mind then we are to glean all the information extant. This means Daniel 9, 11 and 12 no matter if the utterance of the facts are for this time or that time. It's all fact for our understanding of the A of D that will occur at the end of the age.

There's is nothing saying the A of D at the end could not be an exact twin for the one committed by Antiochus IV. In fact it likely will be. That's what Jesus is prompting us to look to, the template, not whether the A of D from Daniel 9 is the prophesied event at the end, even though I think it is. Along with Daniel 11 and 12. 

There is no doubt it's coming. And I have no doubt Antiochus IV did do that thing he did. That doesn't mean we remove Daniel 9 from our catalog of information. Besides, '...confirming the covenant for one week and the in the midst of the week..." is still out there.

[Uriah]

On 3/12/2020 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

I do. It is. About the end I mean. But I see it as more of a marker than the actual event. The question is, 

“How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”

How long? We are not concerned about "what" here, but "when". The wonders were the times of distress and the resurrections in the preceding passage. The following is the answer:

 

7 "And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these things?”  

9 “Go on your way, Daniel,” he replied, “for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.

11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. 

12 Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."

I could be wrong but the passage isn't concerned about the fact of the A of D here but the duration of the 'wonders'. The angel answers and uses the A of D as a marker for the beginning of the period totaling of 1,335 days. This is more a prophecy of the duration from a point in time and not the occurrence of the time marker. 

My point is I see nothing about when the A of D occurs or who does it in Daniel. All I see is the fact it will happen. In Jesus words we are to look to Daniel for the information and we are given the insight though Jesus' prayer for understanding. In my mind then we are to glean all the information extant. This means Daniel 9, 11 and 12 no matter if the utterance of the facts are for this time or that time. It's all fact for our understanding of the A of D that will occur at the end of the age.

There's is nothing saying the A of D at the end could not be an exact twin for the one committed by Antiochus IV. In fact it likely will be. That's what Jesus is prompting us to look to, the template, not whether the A of D from Daniel 9 is the prophesied event at the end, even though I think it is. Along with Daniel 11 and 12. 

There is no doubt it's coming. And I have no doubt Antiochus IV did do that thing he did. That doesn't mean we remove Daniel 9 from our catalog of information. Besides, '...confirming the covenant for one week and the in the midst of the week..." is still out there.

Hello Diaste,

Just a follow-up. Sorry for the delay, I've been busier than any point in my life. (I don't see it getting much better for awhile) I cannot find what I reported awhile back, I had read it years ago. Perhaps it said what I have read recently regarding the 1335 days etc. 

It seems people have confidence in the 1260 day part, even the 1290 part but they admit to assuming the 1335 reference is being when the news of the death of Antiochus would have reached them Maccabeans and their people.

[WilliamL]

On 3/14/2020 at 2:07 PM, Uriah said:

I do. It is. About the end I mean. But I see it as more of a marker than the actual event. The question is, 

“How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”

How long? We are not concerned about "what" here, but "when". The wonders were the times of distress and the resurrections in the preceding passage. The following is the answer:

The question is the relationship between the 1260 and the 1290 days, which I've answered in a blog. Here is the beginning of it. The rest of it is found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

The 1260 Days

Daniel 11:45 And he [the King of the North] shall

1) plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain…

2) 12:1 And at that time…there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation unto that same time…

Matthew 24:15 Therefore when you see

1) the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place…

2) 21 …then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world until this time…

2 Thessalonians 2:3 …the man of sin, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped…

1) sits as a god in the naos/sanctuary/holy place of God, exhibiting himself that he is a god.

These verses describe the events that lead up to and begin an unprecedented “time of trouble/great tribulation,” which tribulation commences with the placing of an abomination of desolation (idolatrous image or person) upon Jerusalemʼs holy mountain.

*          *          *

The passages below describe a time period that follows the Great Tribulation, in which there will be a persecution of Godʼs earthly saints that they must endure for 1260 days.

Daniel 12:6 Until when the end/fulfillment of these wonders?

1) 7 …unto a time, times, and a half [= 3½ times/1260 days];

2) and when the hand/power of the holy people has been completely shattered/scattered, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 7:25 And he [the Little Horn] shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall afflict the saints of the Most High, and intend to change times and law: and they [the saints/ holy people] shall be given into his hand

1) until a time and times and the dividing of time [=3½ times/ 1260 days].

2) … 21 I was watching, and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them…

Revelation 13:5 And there was given to it [the Beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and authority was given to him [the Mouth/Spokesman] to act

1) forty-two months [= 3½ times/1260 days]. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God…

2) 7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them…

The Relationship of the 1260 and the 1290 Days