Are the 10 Commandments called "the moral law"?

[JustPassingThru]

Before his conversion Paul was a walking Bible, he "knew" the Old Testament  forwards and back, ...then the Holy Spirit sent him to his "desert" experience and Jesus "illuminated" him as to the "real" meaning, interpretation and "object" (Person) of the Old Testament, and the Holy Spirit dictated to him what to write to give us the New Testament...

Lord bless 

Edited January 9, 2020 by JustPassingThru

[Tzephanyahu]

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

We have hundreds of laws to deal with in Torah, so why limit to Sabbath?

I believe the Scriptures teach a "one step at a time" when it comes to the Torah, to those who are being grafted in or re-grafted in, as Acts 15 implies - "For Moses is read in the synagogues every Sabbath".  

Now, the Sabbath is a major command, making up part of the 10 commandments (and having the most details within the 10 in Exodus 20).    Therefore, why bother discussing the other commands when this major one is in debate?  As I said, the Torah seems to work on a hierarchy of importance.  So, if we ever get to the bottom of this one, then I'm more than happy to discuss others with you after.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Recall that the apostles didn't technically rest on Saturdays but went to the Temple courts or local synagogues for hard work at preaching and evangelism.

This doesn't contradict my point.  On the Sabbath when the apostles were teaching and performing miracles, this was technically working - Like the Messiah did.  But what is the motive here?  Is it for selfish purposes or compromising with the world?  No, it was spreading the Gospel and demonstrating it with love for one another.  These things come first and before the Sabbath,as love and serving each other (which includes sharing the Gospel) is first and foremost. That is the point of Torah.

However, if you are not helping others or working to spread the good news on a typical Sabbath, then "business as usual" should be rest.

For example, I rest on the Sabbath but I get notifications from this Website when someone posts a question.  If I see someone in need who I believe I can help with advice, then I "work" to help build them up and encourage them - rather than wait until Saturday evening.  Which would be the same as turning my face away from someone in need (for the sake of keeping a commandment) thereby missing the whole point of Torah whilst doing so.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

As a Jew, I know Torah as a path, and we Jews follow orthopraxy, "doing by living/walking" and not just "by learning doctrine".

I'm concerned that your idea of Torah maybe coloured with oral law and tradition that springs from the Pharisees - which making Torah and Sabbath observance very heavy and surrounded with limits.  If I'm wrong, please forgive me.  It's just I have other Jewish friends who shrink away from the Torah as Christians because of the past traditional methods of following.  Does that even make sense? I hope so.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

However, I disagree that righteousness is generated prior to Yeshua via Torah observance only

Then what about what Scripture says about all of those men in all those verses I cited?  

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Rather, salvation in both testaments comes from trusting God.

True. And we are saved to live righteously.  Trusting in Him also surely means that we listen to Him in all things.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

As a Jew, please understand how people retcon Noah to say he kept Torah or Sabbath, which is nonsense. People didn't rest on Shabbat prior to Moses, so be careful not to make Saturdays "magical" is my advice.

That depends on your understanding of Genesis 26:5 (before Moses of course) and your acceptance of some Apocryphal books.  But, in order to stay strictly to the canon for the peace of your mind, I'm not going to go there.  

But I don't make Sabbath "magical".  Rather, I see it in the Hebraic way of a celebration of Yahweh's glorious creation, a  weekly gift of ordained rest, and THE symbol between Creator and His creation.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

but Gentiles need not follow the Torah!

So how do you think the world will be judged and by what standard?  You could say the Noahide Covenant which was made with all nations, and that would be a fair theory.  But what about believers that aren't ignorant to the Torah and do know His ways and have chose to leave them because they don't have to follow them.  (Again, we don't have to follow them. But we are free to choose if we do.)

We read in Scripture that not all believers are seen as equal by God and that there is different rewards and states for us in the next life.  Isn't it reasonable to think that those who choose to follow with their freedom will be seen as worthy of great reward? 

To paraphrase Matthew 5 "Those who follow and teach the Torah will be called great in the kingdom of God and those who ignore and discourage others also will be called least in the kingdom of God".  BOTH groups are saved - but there is a division in their resurrection rewards.  This teaching runs throughout the Messiah's messages and parables.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

"But what about obedience. Do you think that should increase as we mature?"

No! I think we should sin constantly and never be sanctified! I'm joking of course

Hehe, yeah sorry.  Some of my rhetorical questions are awful *facepalm

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Sanctification to me means walking in holiness

How are you defining holiness exactly, if not by the Word?  Following the Messiah's example?  Then to what standard did He live by? (another rhetorical.. *facepalm)

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

and live better.

By what definition? the Messiah's?  Was this not based upon Torah?  He taught us how to interpret it, so we should press on.  Not in oldness of letter but newness of Spirit. Or do you go the standards of Modern Christianity? That is, the masses.

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

No, the Torah goes under the blood of Christ, I die to it, to be wed to Christ, to bear fruit for God, and then, instead of listening to a voice for my PRIMARY guidance, my primary guidance is the Holy Bible.

Well, I would disagree and say to die to the penalty of not following it.  That is, we are now dead to it. No longer to incur the wrath and curse that comes from disobedience (Praise Yahweh!).  Now, what are you going to do with your freedom?  How are you going to live for Him and show Him you love Him?

Let me put it this way, how do you love Him?  Most people will answer in ways that is actually about loving your neighbour, which is partially loving Him.  But how do you love HIM, specifically and personally?  With a prayer of thanks twice a day?  Singing a Hillsong worship song?  Is this the love He desires when we also ignore the guidance He gave us on holy and clean living, and ignoring His Sabbath?

Put it this way.  Let's imagine I say to my wife "I love you so much, more than life itself! Praise you!" but one day she responds "Can we spend one day together, away from everything, each week? It will be our special day ".  But let's imagine I reply "No.  That shouldn't be needed to prove I love you!  Anyway, I love you so much, more than life itself! Praise you!".  How do you think she would feel about it?  How can we expect the Father to feel much different?

Now, you say your primary guidance is the Bible and forgive me for being provocative here but can I question that?  Because surely you are mainly referring to the New Testament only?  What about all that Yahweh said in the Tanakh?  Do you really believe that Paul was overturning these words? Or has he been misunderstood?

Forgive me if that's too provocative.  I mean you no ill-will at all.  Just enjoying the debate.

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

he Sabbath being kept, along with some or all of Torah by Gentiles, was reproved by most books of the NT.

Hmm, I don't witness this.  As I've said, as Paul letters are difficult to understand (as Peter says), so please provide your Scriptures for this.  I certainly expect to see something in the words of the Messiah, if you affirm this, so please provide these verses (outside of the letters of Paul).

Disclaimer: I love Paul and see his letters as Holy Scripture.  But many misunderstand him easily (2 Peter 3:14-18) so I'm suggesting for debate purposes to discuss outside his letters.

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

point to Jesus as our true Sabbath since we are saved AND sanctified by grace, not works.

Lord Yahushua/Jesus was a Sabbath in TYPE.  Surely as a Jew you understand this.   He is a Sabbath in TYPE only, not actually a literal Sabbath.  Otherwise what are we saying - is he a LITERAL lamb, LITERAL lion, and LITERAL rock?  A LITERAL gate? Come on, surely you must understand this method of Hebraic teaching and relational-teaching.  Let's approach the Scripture reasonably and in context - not seeking ways to back our theology.

But yes, amen, we are saved and sanctified by grace and not works. And in the same way, faith without works is dead.  We're not saved BY service, but saved FOR service - just like Israel was from Egypt.

You've raised some great points though.

Love & Shalom

 

[Billiards Ball]

11 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

I believe the Scriptures teach a "one step at a time" when it comes to the Torah, to those who are being grafted in or re-grafted in, as Acts 15 implies - "For Moses is read in the synagogues every Sabbath".  

Now, the Sabbath is a major command, making up part of the 10 commandments (and having the most details within the 10 in Exodus 20).    Therefore, why bother discussing the other commands when this major one is in debate?  As I said, the Torah seems to work on a hierarchy of importance.  So, if we ever get to the bottom of this one, then I'm more than happy to discuss others with you after.

This doesn't contradict my point.  On the Sabbath when the apostles were teaching and performing miracles, this was technically working - Like the Messiah did.  But what is the motive here?  Is it for selfish purposes or compromising with the world?  No, it was spreading the Gospel and demonstrating it with love for one another.  These things come first and before the Sabbath,as love and serving each other (which includes sharing the Gospel) is first and foremost. That is the point of Torah.

However, if you are not helping others or working to spread the good news on a typical Sabbath, then "business as usual" should be rest.

For example, I rest on the Sabbath but I get notifications from this Website when someone posts a question.  If I see someone in need who I believe I can help with advice, then I "work" to help build them up and encourage them - rather than wait until Saturday evening.  Which would be the same as turning my face away from someone in need (for the sake of keeping a commandment) thereby missing the whole point of Torah whilst doing so.

I'm concerned that your idea of Torah maybe coloured with oral law and tradition that springs from the Pharisees - which making Torah and Sabbath observance very heavy and surrounded with limits.  If I'm wrong, please forgive me.  It's just I have other Jewish friends who shrink away from the Torah as Christians because of the past traditional methods of following.  Does that even make sense? I hope so.

Then what about what Scripture says about all of those men in all those verses I cited?  

True. And we are saved to live righteously.  Trusting in Him also surely means that we listen to Him in all things.

That depends on your understanding of Genesis 26:5 (before Moses of course) and your acceptance of some Apocryphal books.  But, in order to stay strictly to the canon for the peace of your mind, I'm not going to go there.  

But I don't make Sabbath "magical".  Rather, I see it in the Hebraic way of a celebration of Yahweh's glorious creation, a  weekly gift of ordained rest, and THE symbol between Creator and His creation.

So how do you think the world will be judged and by what standard?  You could say the Noahide Covenant which was made with all nations, and that would be a fair theory.  But what about believers that aren't ignorant to the Torah and do know His ways and have chose to leave them because they don't have to follow them.  (Again, we don't have to follow them. But we are free to choose if we do.)

We read in Scripture that not all believers are seen as equal by God and that there is different rewards and states for us in the next life.  Isn't it reasonable to think that those who choose to follow with their freedom will be seen as worthy of great reward? 

To paraphrase Matthew 5 "Those who follow and teach the Torah will be called great in the kingdom of God and those who ignore and discourage others also will be called least in the kingdom of God".  BOTH groups are saved - but there is a division in their resurrection rewards.  This teaching runs throughout the Messiah's messages and parables.

Hehe, yeah sorry.  Some of my rhetorical questions are awful *facepalm

How are you defining holiness exactly, if not by the Word?  Following the Messiah's example?  Then to what standard did He live by? (another rhetorical.. *facepalm)

By what definition? the Messiah's?  Was this not based upon Torah?  He taught us how to interpret it, so we should press on.  Not in oldness of letter but newness of Spirit. Or do you go the standards of Modern Christianity? That is, the masses.

Well, I would disagree and say to die to the penalty of not following it.  That is, we are now dead to it. No longer to incur the wrath and curse that comes from disobedience (Praise Yahweh!).  Now, what are you going to do with your freedom?  How are you going to live for Him and show Him you love Him?

Let me put it this way, how do you love Him?  Most people will answer in ways that is actually about loving your neighbour, which is partially loving Him.  But how do you love HIM, specifically and personally?  With a prayer of thanks twice a day?  Singing a Hillsong worship song?  Is this the love He desires when we also ignore the guidance He gave us on holy and clean living, and ignoring His Sabbath?

Put it this way.  Let's imagine I say to my wife "I love you so much, more than life itself! Praise you!" but one day she responds "Can we spend one day together, away from everything, each week? It will be our special day ".  But let's imagine I reply "No.  That shouldn't be needed to prove I love you!  Anyway, I love you so much, more than life itself! Praise you!".  How do you think she would feel about it?  How can we expect the Father to feel much different?

Now, you say your primary guidance is the Bible and forgive me for being provocative here but can I question that?  Because surely you are mainly referring to the New Testament only?  What about all that Yahweh said in the Tanakh?  Do you really believe that Paul was overturning these words? Or has he been misunderstood?

Forgive me if that's too provocative.  I mean you no ill-will at all.  Just enjoying the debate.

Hmm, I don't witness this.  As I've said, as Paul letters are difficult to understand (as Peter says), so please provide your Scriptures for this.  I certainly expect to see something in the words of the Messiah, if you affirm this, so please provide these verses (outside of the letters of Paul).

Disclaimer: I love Paul and see his letters as Holy Scripture.  But many misunderstand him easily (2 Peter 3:14-18) so I'm suggesting for debate purposes to discuss outside his letters.

Lord Yahushua/Jesus was a Sabbath in TYPE.  Surely as a Jew you understand this.   He is a Sabbath in TYPE only, not actually a literal Sabbath.  Otherwise what are we saying - is he a LITERAL lamb, LITERAL lion, and LITERAL rock?  A LITERAL gate? Come on, surely you must understand this method of Hebraic teaching and relational-teaching.  Let's approach the Scripture reasonably and in context - not seeking ways to back our theology.

But yes, amen, we are saved and sanctified by grace and not works. And in the same way, faith without works is dead.  We're not saved BY service, but saved FOR service - just like Israel was from Egypt.

You've raised some great points though.

Love & Shalom

 

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

In sum:

1) Not one Gentile was observing the Sabbath (or many of the other 613 laws in Jesus's day, or the apostles' day). Gentiles getting saved who were proselytes or in Jewish congregations would meet on Saturday night ("early on the first day of the week") to share money offerings and Christian worship, often secretly, so in Jesus's day the church wouldn't meet on the Sabbath but on Saturday night (Sunday). Why should Gentile Christians observe the Sabbath since they didn't in NT times?

2) Why do people do some of the specific Torah laws (not oral traditions or Talmud) while ignoring others? Can you think of scriptures where it was said that some of the Law died with Christ or some of the Law cannot save, but some can?

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom friend, 

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Not one Gentile was observing the Sabbath (or many of the other 613 laws in Jesus's day, or the apostles' day)

Please cite your source for this. And there are not 613 laws, as mentioned a few posts ago. 

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Gentiles getting saved who were proselytes or in Jewish congregations would meet on Saturday night ("early on the first day of the week")

Yes, they did gather separately to honour the Messiah. So you think that proves they didn't honour the Sabbath? That's like saying "there's a church meeting every wednesday - so I guess that means I will no longer go on Sunday..." 

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

so in Jesus's day the church wouldn't meet on the Sabbath

Nonsense. Where's your source for this? 

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Why should Gentile Christians observe the Sabbath since they didn't in NT times?

Again, spurious. Unless you are aware of when in Scripture it says this. I no of not one verse that backs up that claim. 

I'm not having a go at you though friend. Just envouraging you to question what you "know" and question what you have been taught - always. I used to think somebof these things until I went back to Scripture with no preconceived ideas, external teachings or pressure from masses say something long enough and loud enough. Let Scripture speak for itself. 

However, if I have missed a verse which back up your claims as above, please let me know. 

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Why do people do some of the specific Torah laws (not oral traditions or Talmud) while ignoring others? Can you think of scriptures where it was said that some of the Law died with Christ or some of the Law cannot save, but some can?

Great question!  To do this briefly, as I can ramble on if you hadn't noticed :), the Spirit of Yahweh guides us in Torah and expounds ot for us.

It's not a question of ignore this and do that and most of the Torah applies in certain situations. 

For example, if you're at your Pc typing you are not breaking the speed limit on the highway (hopefully). Are you therefore ignoring it and not obeying it? 

But that's another conversation in itself. For now, let's keep things simple and talk only of the 10 commandments. Surely most Christians would agree they would naturally follow all of them, but if that were true, they would have a natural desire for thr Sabbath. Now, you can't say you keep the 10 and hate God, or commit adultery. Most would agree that would be a fail.  But suddenly most get really lenient and relaxed over the Sabbath - getting wishy washy with it. Talking about how Sabbath is any day you want, or everyday or that Messiah is the actual Sabbath. Which one of these theories is right? They cannot all be right, but this are the common responses. 

But when you read Exodus 20:8, there is more wrotten about it than any other commandment (except perhaps idolatry) and He makes it very clear its a day and its the seventh day and its for rest. 

So how do you answer Exodus 20:8 in your conscience as you read it? 

A) that was for Israel back then

B) that was just to point us to the Messiah

C) that doesn't apply any more as it was nailed to the cross

D) all that mattets is that we love God and our neighbour, He doesn't care if we observe Sabbath. 

These are the common obejections. Which one do you choose, or maybe you have another?  I will expand on this according to you answer (Yahweh willing). 

Love & Shalom 

[Billiards Ball]

45 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom friend, 

Please cite your source for this. And there are not 613 laws, as mentioned a few posts ago. 

Yes, they did gather separately to honour the Messiah. So you think that proves they didn't honour the Sabbath? That's like saying "there's a church meeting every wednesday - so I guess that means I will no longer go on Sunday..." 

Nonsense. Where's your source for this? 

Again, spurious. Unless you are aware of when in Scripture it says this. I no of not one verse that backs up that claim. 

I'm not having a go at you though friend. Just envouraging you to question what you "know" and question what you have been taught - always. I used to think somebof these things until I went back to Scripture with no preconceived ideas, external teachings or pressure from masses say something long enough and loud enough. Let Scripture speak for itself. 

However, if I have missed a verse which back up your claims as above, please let me know. 

Great question!  To do this briefly, as I can ramble on if you hadn't noticed :), the Spirit of Yahweh guides us in Torah and expounds ot for us.

It's not a question of ignore this and do that and most of the Torah applies in certain situations. 

For example, if you're at your Pc typing you are not breaking the speed limit on the highway (hopefully). Are you therefore ignoring it and not obeying it? 

But that's another conversation in itself. For now, let's keep things simple and talk only of the 10 commandments. Surely most Christians would agree they would naturally follow all of them, but if that were true, they would have a natural desire for thr Sabbath. Now, you can't say you keep the 10 and hate God, or commit adultery. Most would agree that would be a fail.  But suddenly most get really lenient and relaxed over the Sabbath - getting wishy washy with it. Talking about how Sabbath is any day you want, or everyday or that Messiah is the actual Sabbath. Which one of these theories is right? They cannot all be right, but this are the common responses. 

But when you read Exodus 20:8, there is more wrotten about it than any other commandment (except perhaps idolatry) and He makes it very clear its a day and its the seventh day and its for rest. 

So how do you answer Exodus 20:8 in your conscience as you read it? 

A) that was for Israel back then

B) that was just to point us to the Messiah

C) that doesn't apply any more as it was nailed to the cross

D) all that mattets is that we love God and our neighbour, He doesn't care if we observe Sabbath. 

These are the common obejections. Which one do you choose, or maybe you have another?  I will expand on this according to you answer (Yahweh willing). 

Love & Shalom 

Please cite your source for this. And there are not 613 laws, as mentioned a few posts ago. 

1) You want my source that only Jews and proselytes (Gentile synagogue attendees) were observing the Sabbath in ancient times? Of course, the Gentile world took a Sabbath centuries later when Rome made it Sunday. And as a Jew, I can tell you we think there are 613 or 623 specific Torah laws. Here's the list: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm - and if you respect me as a Jew you will please stop telling me the 613 "don't exist": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

Yes, they did gather separately to honour the Messiah. So you think that proves they didn't honour the Sabbath? That's like saying "there's a church meeting every wednesday - so I guess that means I will no longer go on Sunday..." 

2) I didn't say the church meeting Saturday night disdained the Sabbath. The Jews would go to Saturday service also, and wash their hands, and eat and go to the bathroom, too, but none of those activities made them "closer to God". Trust me, as a Jew, a lot of the old Saturday shul magic disappears when you get saved.

Nonsense. Where's your source for this? 

3) You need a source the church wouldn't meet on the Sabbath? The early church was mostly Jews and later, proselytes (Gentiles who attended synagogue on Saturdays). It caused great uproar to share Jesus in synagogue and the Bible records the believers met on Saturday night as a) they handled money which you don't do on Shabbat b) there was feasting and drinking (Saturday night) and c) no non-Christian Jews trying to hurt them in person! If you were an ancient Jewish Christian, you didn't meet Sunday morning, you met Saturday night in someone's home for fellowship, after a day of Sabbath activities that you either wanted to do from the heart, or had to do, to avoid being excommunicated from synagogue and shunned from Jewish life and family.

Nonsense. Where's your source for this? 

4) Gentile Christians who were proselytes of course kept the Sabbath. But as the witness increased greatly through Paul, there was NO reason for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath in non-Christian synagogues where they would be unwelcome, and even excluded as Gentiles! They would join the Jews in house worship on Saturday night, and later, Sunday... do you not understand that a Gentile off the street could get saved but not sit down in synagogue to do the Sabbath with Jews?

Why should Gentile Christians observe the Sabbath since they didn't in NT times? ---Again, spurious. Unless you are aware of when in Scripture it says this. I no of not one verse that backs up that claim. 

See above. Trust me, as a Jew, it's very hard for me to preach Christ in shul on Saturday. There are multiple clues in the scriptures that the house churches met starting on Saturday night, as above.

But that's another conversation in itself. For now, let's keep things simple and talk only of the 10 commandments. Surely most Christians would agree they would naturally follow all of them, but if that were true, they would have a natural desire for thr Sabbath.

I thought I was clear, I don't follow the 10, they are small, almost nothing. I don't say, "I'm a huge Christian because I neither murder nor commit adultery." Jesus needs me to work on much harder laws avoiding mere anger and lust!

Exodus 20:8

A) that was for Israel back then (YES unless you avoid wearing clothes of two fabrics and kill pigeons when you sin also, because James says you have to do it all if you're going to break one or some!)

B) that was just to point us to the Messiah (YES, which is a SCRIPTURAL argument, although there are more applications that "just" to point)

C) that doesn't apply any more as it was nailed to the cross (I was nailed to the cross, not the Law, so that I would die to being married to the Law as a Jew, to be wed to JESUS, who ROSE FROM THE DEAD, to bear REAL fruit for God, as in Romans 7).

D) all that mattets is that we love God and our neighbour, He doesn't care if we observe Sabbath. (Jesus said all the Law/Laws have to do with these things, yes. And no, God never commanded Gentiles to observe the Sabbath, so He doesn't care. I agree.)

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/8/2020 at 7:37 AM, Billiards Ball said:

Note the council asked Gentiles to observe only a few laws, none of which were "rest on Sabbath". Note also that you and I cannot say "some days are holier" logically means "just the Sabbath" or "just not the Sabbath, fasting days". "Some days of the calendar" could be every seventh day, right? That would be "I observe some days".

The first directive sent out by the Jerusalem Council spotlighted those things which would make joint worship (Jews and Gentiles) possible.  Jews could not worship with idols, or blood sacrifices away from Jerusalem, or fertility rites involving fornication, etc. etc.

Acts 15:20 and 21  "but we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.  For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 

The Jerusalem Council expected new believers to hear Moses every Sabbath. 

On 1/8/2020 at 2:57 AM, Betha said:

 Sun day worshippers are not tuned into the God of Israel whose HOLY DAY is 7th day Sabbath

I don't think I could judge anyone else, to say he/she was "not tuned in to the God of Israel".  There have been many born again, sincere servants of God, who just didn't understand that HIS DAY is the 7th Day.  Always has been.  Always will be. 

Jesus rested on the Sabbath (even in death).  I seriously doubt the Jewish people have lost track of which day is the Sabbath. 

The morning/evening sacrifice "covered" sins committed in ignorance UNTIL such time as the sinner realized that he had sinned against the LORD.  THEN he was to bring a "sin offering".  That tells me prophetically, that the blood of Christ covers sins of ignorance. 

An old friend of mine once told me that it took her 7 years (from first notice to final conviction) to finally surrender to LORD concerning His Day.  Now, was she "lost" all those years.  I don't think so.  She was studying and praying all that time.  The pressure on her was heavy from family (her father was a Church of Christ minister) and friends.  She had a lot to lose - of her social support network.   She told me that she finally realized the scale was tipped waaay over towards the Sabbath.   That's when she decided to rest on that Day. 

[Billiards Ball]

1 minute ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The first directive sent out by the Jerusalem Council spotlighted those things which would make joint worship (Jews and Gentiles) possible.  Jews could not worship with idols, or blood sacrifices away from Jerusalem, or fertility rites involving fornication, etc. etc.

Acts 15:20 and 21  "but we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.  For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 

The Jerusalem Council expected new believers to hear Moses every Sabbath. 

I don't think I could judge anyone else, to say he/she was "not tuned in to the God of Israel".  There have been many born again, sincere servants of God, who just didn't understand that HIS DAY is the 7th Day.  Always has been.  Always will be. 

Jesus rested on the Sabbath (even in death).  I seriously doubt the Jewish people have lost track of which day is the Sabbath. 

The morning/evening sacrifice "covered" sins committed in ignorance UNTIL such time as the sinner realized that he had sinned against the LORD.  THEN he was to bring a "sin offering".  That tells me prophetically, that the blood of Christ covers sins of ignorance. 

An old friend of mine once told me that it took her 7 years (from first notice to final conviction) to finally surrender to LORD concerning His Day.  Now, was she "lost" all those years.  I don't think so.  She was studying and praying all that time.  The pressure on her was heavy from family (her father was a Church of Christ minister) and friends.  She had a lot to lose - of her social support network.   She told me that she finally realized the scale was tipped waaay over towards the Sabbath.   That's when she decided to rest on that Day. 

Yes, the council was very early in the history of the church, and the Gentile proselytes (interested in synagogue attendance) would of course hear Moses weekly in shul. If you are taking this as proscriptive, however, you would have to logically say that all Christians need to study the Penteteuch weekly on Saturdays, too, but one of the biggest problems Jesus faced (and I still face) is how Jews take Moses way above all else in the scripture! I know Job and Daniel and Isaiah, for example, teach the resurrection, but Moses doesn't clearly, so Jesus had to exegete Exodus 3 to get the point across. Do you, today, expect Gentile Christians to convert to Judaism, so that they are allowed in religious synagogues to obey to hear Moses each and every Saturday?!

I've never said the Sabbath isn't Saturday. I've rather said the Sabbath is eternal! So? It's not salvific nor sanctifying to rest on that day of the week. You can rest any day you please.

And are you saying Jesus rested in the tomb for 24 hours only, in death, on the Sabbath? Isn't that heresy since He was "in the belly of the Earth three days and nights"?

I hear your zeal for Saturday. Romans says enjoy that zeal. But Christians don't sin by going to church Sunday (or Monday... or Tuesday...)!

[Resurrection Priest]

14 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

All Of this “ parsing” in regard to a section of the Law that in its entirety is “ weak,beggarly, and useless” is the very definition of something  that is “ small potatoes”

Hebrews 10:4-10  “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
        Therefore, when He [Jesus] came into the world, He said: ‘Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.   In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.’
        Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come-- In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God.’
        Previously saying, ‘Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them’ (which are offered according to the law),
        then He said, ‘Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.’ He takes away the first that He may establish the second."

Hebrews 7: “For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law” (v.18). “For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, (v. 19) for the law made nothing perfect.  On the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.”

What "commandment" was annulled?  Which one was "weak and unprofitable"?

The "weak and unprofitable" commandment" was "the blood of bulls and goats" and the ministry of justification through a sinful human Levite priesthood.  Hebrews is NOT SAYING that the TEN COMMANDMENTS were "weak and unprofitable". 

The ONLY thing I see specifically "changed" was the sacrificial system. 

The perfect death of Yeshua, and His perfect ministry as our Priest has replaced the system of animal sacrifices through the Levite priests. 

[Resurrection Priest]

51 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

And are you saying Jesus rested in the tomb for 24 hours only, in death, on the Sabbath? Isn't that heresy since He was "in the belly of the Earth three days and nights"?

I can PM you a link to a study I wrote on that one.  I believe Jesus was "in the heart of the earth" from the moment He was arrested in the Garden, to dawn of the First Day of the Week.  Jerusalem was "the heart of the earth".  "The heart of the earth" was evil.   Jesus was thrown overboard into the evil, just like Jonah was thrown into the sea.  HINT:  Jesus could not "rise the 3rd day" and be dead for three days and three nights.   

[Resurrection Priest]

57 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Yes, the council was very early in the history of the church, and the Gentile proselytes (interested in synagogue attendance) would of course hear Moses weekly in shul. If you are taking this as proscriptive, however, you would have to logically say that all Christians need to study the Penteteuch weekly on Saturdays, too, but one of the biggest problems Jesus faced (and I still face) is how Jews take Moses way above all else in the scripture! I know Job and Daniel and Isaiah, for example, teach the resurrection, but Moses doesn't clearly, so Jesus had to exegete Exodus 3 to get the point across. Do you, today, expect Gentile Christians to convert to Judaism, so that they are allowed in religious synagogues to obey to hear Moses each and every Saturday?!

At that time - Moses was read every Sabbath, in the synagogues.  At that time - the first disciples were Jews.  Paul sought out the Jewish synagogues first - in every city where he traveled.  He taught there first.  Sometimes they kicked him out.  Sometimes not.  Once they kicked him out, did he tell all the Gentile believers to meet him on Sundays?  No.

In Antioch Paul worshiped in the synagogue, on the Sabbath (Acts 13:14-16). When the Jews had left the synagogue, the Gentiles begged Paul to preach to them “the next Sabbath” (13:44).  He didn't tell them to meet him on Sunday.  And almost the whole city came to hear him.

In Philippi, where there was no synagogue, Paul went out by the river “where prayer was customarily made.” He went there to worship on the Sabbath (Acts 16:13).  

In Thessalonica “Paul, as his custom was, went in (to the synagogue) to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures” (Acts 17:2).   

At Corinth he “reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath” (Acts 18:4,11).

But we find no passage where Paul expressly states that He now rested on Sunday, and we find no passage where Paul states that working on the Sabbath is now acceptable or lawful.