Guest Zayit Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 OK we argee there. Now if you are trying to reach one of the least of his brethren, do you do it while eating a ham sandwich? ( Remember Antioch Epip). are you witnessing of the same never changing G-d? Or of another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 OK we argee there. Now if you are trying to reach one of the least of his brethren, do you do it while eating a ham sandwich? ( Remember Antioch Epip). are you witnessing of the same never changing G-d? Or of another? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That depends on the individual in front of you, I suppose Most jews I know are not kosher. They are uncomfortable around an Orthodox religious jew...and they would be very uncomfortable around a gentile who is more jewish than them. If they order a shrimp cocktail, I might get one too. I wouldn't make a big deal out of being kosher around them because that is extremely unimportant to someone who is facing an eternity in hell. I would only be concerned with showing them how much I care for them...because Yeshua has given me that kind of love. I certainly wouldn't start condemning their sins. That is up to the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zayit Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Who said anything about condemning their sins? Just because they are being defiant and rebellious does that mean you should be too? Most jews I know are not kosher. They are uncomfortable around an Orthodox religious jew...and they would be very uncomfortable around a gentile who is more jewish than them. If they order a shrimp cocktail, I might get one too. You wouldn't want them to be uncomfortable? So you condone and sin too? So if they are doing some coke, you would too? So they wouldn't be uncomfortable? Is that love? I don't agree, we are given commandments in a certain order, and G-d always comes first, we are not to forsake him to show love to another. It comes back to the scripture M4 keeps posting, If you Love ME, Keep my commandments. and this: Mt 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. You by doing so are breaking and teaching others to break at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blessed by Association Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 If the Sabbath is not so important then why is it that in Revelation that the commandments so important? Rev 12:17 17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. RSV Rev 14:12 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. RSV The commandments were given at Mt. Sinai and they never were changed. Jesus never changed them and HE had all of the authority to do so while HE was here on earth and never did. How can you call yourself a CHRISTIAN and not do the things that Christ did? If you elieve in Him then you should do as HE did and worship on the Sabbath. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 He worshipped every day. To limit this to one day is a weak faith. You guys keeps dancing around the original question so I'll keep restating it. Is someone who goes to church on Sunday instead of Saturday really considered by God to be a lesser saint? What is the penalty? You wouldn't want them to be uncomfortable? So you condone and sin too? So if they are doing some coke, you would too? So they wouldn't be uncomfortable? Sorry Z but I don't believe it is a sin or the Apostles would have made a big deal about telling the gentiles that they must be torah-observant. It's completely and utterly vain to attempt any self-righteousness according to the law. Will shrimp harm me physically? Yes Spiritually? What is the penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zayit Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Will being part of the world harm you physically? Spiritually , what are the benifits of not being part of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Will being part of the world harm you physically? NOT being part of the world physically means I don't exist. you mean spiritually? Spiritually, what are the benefits of not being part of it? Now or in the future kingdom come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail2awe Posted September 1, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 247 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2005 f the Sabbath is not so important then why is it that in Revelation that the commandments so important? The answer to this one is so obvious that it can be easily overlooked, but here it is: Revelation is a letter which is written to the tribes of Israel, who will minister to those nations of population who are 'hurt' of the second death, of who shall need to hear the word of God for a thousand years, albeit in a transfigured body. Revelation means to make known. Revelation is telling of when God again begins to work with His chosen nation and people, who are and have always been, Israel. The difference is that the church of the prison epistles is speaking to a different company of His choosing, who are a company of called out ones from all nations, who have an heavenly kingdom inheritance, whereas Israel has an earthly kingdom inheritance. When we mix these memberships together, is it because God has mixed them together as one? or is it a tradition of man? In otherwords, has God made distinctions from Israel and Gentiles? or of heaven and earth? If He has, would it be correct to honor the Lord by acknowledging these differences, even if churches teach otherwise? or should we forget what the Bible actually states, trading it for what sounds good to us now, that God gave us Israel's kingdom inheritance. If we believe that God has placed us in Israel's kingdom, then why do people think they are going to spend eternity in heaven? Israel is never said to be in heavenly places. Only the church of the mystery, as revealed by the apostle to the gentiles have any verses placing any called out company in heavenly places, so, when people think they are going to heaven, then why do they apply verses to themselves which are written to a people who have an earthly inheritance? IMO, God didn't mix things together. Dispesation of promise: Law - God working with an earthly people who shall have blessings in His earthly kingdom. Dispensation of grace: Grace, not law - God not working with an earthly people, and building up a faith based body who shall have blessings in the heavenly places. Rev 12:17 17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. Again, the obvious often just escapes us; Satan is angry that God woluld raise up a people from the flesh for an inheritance rather than the most beautiful archangel in all of creation. God gave a higher authority (potentially now, reality in that day of redemption) to the lowly and Satan's already then old man nature only saw pride and self, whereas we know (some know) that even now we do enter into His rest, even now we can be quickened in spirit. It is the new nature which lets the ego and self slide into the past, ever seeking the knowledge of God rather than things on this earth. Will being part of the world harm you physically? Yes, it causes death, for it is given for every to die once. Even the Lord from heaven Himself would come in the flesh and do this. Only those fallen angels did not come here by the water and the blood, only those fallen angels are spoken of as violating this LAW, having left there first estate (Jude). John made a big deal about the fact that Christ came by water and blood. The OT makes a big deal about the everlasting Father, God, coming in the flesh to fulfill the law of sin and death, which is really, imo, the only way to let the children learn - through direct experience, of what death is, that chosing life becomes the one important vehicle to the truth of God, who is verily love itself. The whole of the teachings are readily visible, but they are only discerned spiritually. God is Spirit, He maketh His angels spirits. When the body dies the spirit returns to God who gave it. The OT is clear on this, He knew us before we were in the womb, before we were flesh. Christ told Nico that you must physically be born from above, but this cannot be understood carnally, for spiritual things are discerned spiritually. Even the place the angels came when they left their first estate (heavenly body) is called 'the breach of the waters'. You must be born of spiritual water. The 'sea' of people, the merchants of Tyre, the ships of Chittem, the river of life, &c, &c. God reveals and we think we know? How can we know? when we don't know God? How can we trust someone that we do not know? If we do not trust that God has a perfect plan that is far reaching and blessed by grace and love wherein we are offered to enter into His rest even now, if we believe it - when we do not trust God in this: It is obvious. The reason we do not trust, is because we do not know Him. And how can this be, when He wrote His plan of the ages down for us so that we can know Him? Are we so prideful that we think we can just apply His instruction for one people to this people of the dispensation of grace? Are we so prideful that we will just foresake His blessings in the heavenly places because all we can see is what He wrote to the Nation of Israel? He told us where everyone is going to end up AND who they are, so - which letters have God's instructions in them for you? Which letter has your name on the envelope? and which letters have the name of Israel on the envelope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail2awe Posted September 1, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 247 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2005 Happy Sabbath all wub.gif , This was written in violation of the Sabbath day law. What is the Biblical penalty for violation the Sabbath day law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 The answer to this one is so obvious that it can be easily overlooked, er..uh...yea...um...right. f the Sabbath is not so important then why is it that in Revelation that the commandments so important? That is a very good question...and I don't know...but I'll tell you what I think. There are some things that are interpreted differently in light of the New Covenant...which allows all nations in by faith through grace. If there is no penalty discussed for non-observance of the torah BY the Apostles TO these same gentiles, then we really don't know if their churches resembled judaism at all. We can assume some things by Paul always going into congregations on the Sabbath, or waiting a week for the Feast of Tabernacles before traveling, etc.. And we're talking about some pretty darn carnal churches too! Rivaling even today.... Why didn't he say anything even once if it's really that important? He never once told them to stop eating pork in the entire Greco-Roman world that we can identify. He never tells them to wear tzit-tzit, have a seder, bake a cake, dance, or play songs in minor keys either. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that gentiles ever observed torah or the feasts as you know them. There is no mention of any gentiles going up to Jerusalem to keep the feasts while the Temple was still there. Why wouldn't that be mentioned if it's important? If gentiles non-observance was a problem don't you think that Paul or Peter or James or John or Apollos or Timothy or Luke or Matthew or Mark or Jude or Titus would have said something...anything???? I'm not so sure that this passage in Revelations is saying what you think it is saying...but I'm sure it is the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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