Hebrew Roots and Diety of Jesus/Yahshua

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Hello,

I have been looking into the Hebrew Roots movement because I am not a fan dispensationalsim and really feel the greek/roman mindset which was very antisemitic stripped hebraic roots out of Christianity, such as changing the Sabbath to Sunday and doing away the Feast that God ordained for his people to keep and by replacing some of them with pagan festivals such as Christmas, Easter.  I am in agreement with much of their teachings for the most part but eventually stumbled upon doctrinal issues that really disturbed me; chief one being the denial of the deity of Yahshua.  I am not sure if this core teaching of the Hebrew Roots movement but I have found many do hold to this teaching.   The ones I have met teach that Yahshua is a created being and lower in status to Elohim.   Some teach that Yahshua is a god but not equal to God the Father.   This has been a huge stumbling block for me to accept.   I just want to get your guys take on this and I apologize if this has already been addressed. 

Jedi4Yah

Edited February 12, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom @JasonPerkins

Welcome to the forum!

13 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

I have been looking into the Hebrew Roots movement because I am not a fan dispensationalsim and really feel the greek/roman mindset which was very antisemitic stripped hebraic roots out of Christianity, such as changing the Sabbath to Sunday and doing away the Feast that God ordained for his people to keep and by replacing some of them with pagan festivals such as Christmas, Easter.

Amen.  I agree with with you, so do a small handful of others in here!  Not many, but rarely are religious majorities right.

13 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

I am in agreement with much of their teachings for the most part but eventually stumbled upon doctrinal issues that really disturbed me; chief one being the denial of the deity of Yahshua.  I am not sure if this core teaching of the Hebrew Roots movement but I have found many do hold to this teaching. 

Ehh?  That sounds very strange.  What exactly did you hear?  I've not come across that in any "Hebrew Roots Movement".  I would stay away from anyone saying such things.

13 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

The ones I have met teach that Yahshua is a created being and lower in status to Elohim. 

Well, perhaps ask more on what they mean.  However, my understanding and of others I know teach that Yahushua IS Elohim, with the Father.  Elohim being a plural of Eloah or El (mighty one).  A big issue can come from translating this word into the singular 'God' in the English language. 

14 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

Some teach that Yahshua is a god but not equal to God the Father.

Yes, there is a hierarchy of Father and Son, as demonstrated throughout the entire Scriptures and in the words of the Messiah Himself.   However, the Son is as one with the Father and all authority is given into His hands.  So just as you would bow to the Father, you will also bow to the Son.

Look at it this way... 

In ancient Israel, when the kingdom was divided, each kingdom often had a co-regency going on.  The father (the king) and the first-born son (the prince).  Now, during the co-regency, anything the son would say and do would be as if the father said and done it himself.  They were one in name and authority.  So, in essence the prince WAS the king, although different entity to the king.

In the same way, the Son of God who is the Suffering Servant and the Messiah the King, is from His Father, Yahweh.  The Messiah would listen and repeat all His Father instructed Him, followed His will and prayed  to and praised Him (in this way, you can see the hierarchy).  But, as far as we're concerned, the Messiah rules as if the Father Himself.  Again, Yahushua's words and authority have complete power, as if the Father said them Himself.  They are one.

This is why it is said that, if you accept the Lord Yahushua, you are not just simply accepting Him alone but the Father - as to believe the Lord is to accept WHO He is and WHERE He is from.   And, anyone accepting the Father, MUST do so by the Son - who is the very image of His Father and is His anointed ruler.   (To go back to the ancient kings of Israel, the father could be away and leave all the kingdom to his son and no one could approach the father without going through the son.)

I hope this helps in someway and doesn't make the matter more confusing!

Love & Shalom

[Jedi4Yahweh]

14 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Yes, there is a hierarchy of Father and Son, as demonstrated throughout the entire Scriptures and in the words of the Messiah Himself.   However, the Son is as one with the Father and all authority is given into His hands.  So just as you would bow to the Father, you will also bow to the Son.

My understanding from Scriptures is that Y'shua is God in the flesh.  We read that in first chapter of the gospel of John were in the beginning was God and God made all things and then God became flesh and dwelled among us (Y'shua).  The bible teaches that it was Y'shua who created all things.  So when we read Gen 1 about where it says in the beginning God created heaven and earth, well that God is Y'shua.     All things were created by him (Y'shua) and for him (Y'shua).

[Col 1:16-17 KJV] 16 For by him (Y'shua) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

You stated that there is a hierarchy .  In the scripture just quoted said that Y'shua is the head of all things meaning He is at the very top of this hierarchy and their is no one above him.

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Jason,

Thanks for the response.  

As this is quite a "zip file" of a subject, it's probably best I respond to each of the excellent points you raised.

9 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

My understanding from Scriptures is that Y'shua is God in the flesh.

Yes and no.  Y'Shua is ELOHIM in the flesh, but not God the Father. 

Again, Elohim is plural word (mor than one El) but is translated into the singular English word "God" throughout the Bible.  For example, Genesis 1:1 reads "In the beginning ELOHIM created the heavens and the earth".  This is like the very first testimony of the Father, Son and Spirit as one. 

Now, that said, Y'Shua's presence on earth was as the same as if the Father Himself was here.  This is the oneness they have in heart and authority - as outlined in my post before.  The Messiah is the express image of His Father and so should be respected as the Father. 

9 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

We read that in first chapter of the gospel of John were in the beginning was God and God made all things and then God became flesh and dwelled among us (Y'shua). 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God".

Can you say that Jason is WITH Jason and Jason WAS Jason?  

But let's look at this sentence again with a Hebraic mindset...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH Elohim and the Word WAS Elohim".

Y'Shua was WITH Elohim (Father and Spirit) and WAS Elohim (part of the "Godhead" or "Trinity")

9 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

The bible teaches that it was Y'shua who created all things.  So when we read Gen 1 about where it says in the beginning God created heaven and earth, well that God is Y'shua.     All things were created by him (Y'shua) and for him (Y'shua).

Consider the following.  All things were created by the Word of Elohim.  But who was the Word of Elohim speaking to in the opening chapters of Genesis? 

Perhaps Y'Shua created the world by saying to His Father "Let there be light!" and so on.  Like a Son being given a new dimension to create and rule in from His Father who created it for Him and by Him.  

9 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Amen.  Yahweh, the Father, Son and Spirit, existed before all things and before time itself.

9 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

You stated that there is a hierarchy .  In the scripture just quoted said that Y'shua is the head of all things meaning He is at the very top of this hierarchy and their is no one above him.

Yes, as far as the whole universe is concerned, Y'shua is the head of all things.  But as far as Y'Shua is concerned, the head above Him is the Father Yahweh, El Elyon.  

Don't see this as a downer on Y'Shua, see it as a escalation of the Father.  The Father is above all things.  But His Son rules with His authority (see my previous post about authority in ancient Israel).

And also consider this verse...

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." - 1 Corinthians 15:24

Now, if you believe Y'Shua IS the Father, what then, does Y'Shua hand over the kingdom over to Himself? 

Or, if you believe the Father and Son are separate entities but without a hierarchy, then why would Y'Shua hand His power over to His Father after His work?

No, the Father hands all authority over to the Son who, when all has been accomplished, will hand it back to the Father, who will then be in all and over all.  

Do spend time reading the New Testament very, very closely to see how Y'Shua speaks of the Father and how the apostles do.  (Just one example: Y'shua isn't praying to Himself in John 17). And also pay very close attention to the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh and you will see the Father and Son, although one and fully unified, are separate entities.  If that's the right word!  

Again, thank you for your thoughtful post.

Love & Shalom

Edited February 13, 2020 by Tzephanyahu

[Jedi4Yahweh]

15 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Yes and no.  Y'Shua is ELOHIM in the flesh, but not God the Father. 

Again, Elohim is plural word (mor than one El) but is translated into the singular English word "God" throughout the Bible.  For example, Genesis 1:1 reads "In the beginning ELOHIM created the heavens and the earth".  This is like the very first testimony of the Father, Son and Spirit as one. 

This is the mystery of the Gospel.  That Y'shua and the Father are one and the same.  He told his disciples if you have seen me then you have seen the Father for he and the Father are one and the same..   Isaiah prophesied the Messiah would be called the Almighty God and Everlasting Father. (Isa 9:6)

15 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God".

Can you say that Jason is WITH Jason and Jason WAS Jason?  

Actually you can, because we are made in the image and likeness of Elohim.  I can say my spirit is currently with my body and same for my soul.  Those three make up one me not three persons.  My spirit communicates with my soul and body and vise versa yet they are all me and we are all together one.

15 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Yes, as far as the whole universe is concerned, Y'shua is the head of all things.  But as far as Y'Shua is concerned, the head above Him is the Father Yahweh, El Elyon.  

Don't see this as a downer on Y'Shua, see it as a escalation of the Father.  The Father is above all things.  But His Son rules with His authority (see my previous post about authority in ancient Israel).

And also consider this verse...

The  Col 1:16-17 says that Y'shua is above of all things to include those that are in heaven (where God dwells) and on earth.    The mystery of the Gospel is that God took on the form of man to pay the debt for all of man sins, to destroy the works of Satan and to restore his kingdom on earth.  

[Phl 2:6-11  Though he (Y'shua) was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal's death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Paul teaches us that Y'shua was not just apart of the Godhead but that in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead.   Meaning in Y'shua is fully Elohim(plural).  Just as the scriptures said he is the Almighty Elohim and Eternal Father in bodily form.

[Col 2:9 NKJV] 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
 

Y'shua is not a mini-God with delegated authority over some divided section of God's dimension.  He is all God and over all things in  both Heavenly realms and Earthly realms.   

Edited February 14, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Jason,

Thanks for the response.  Sorry for the delay in replying.

14 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

This is the mystery of the Gospel.  That Y'shua and the Father are one and the same.  He told his disciples if you have seen me then you have seen the Father for he and the Father are one and the same..   Isaiah prophesied the Messiah would be called the Almighty God and Everlasting Father. (Isa 9:6)

This does not contradict anything which I've already written in my previous posts.  So there's not much point of me repeating it.

14 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

Actually you can, because we are made in the image and likeness of Elohim.  I can say my spirit is currently with my body and same for my soul.  Those three make up one me not three persons.  My spirit communicates with my soul and body and vise versa yet they are all me and we are all together one.

I think you are trying to re-imagine Yahweh in our image, and this is causing the 'problem' in understanding.

Jason, as a whole, is you.  Therefore Jason cannot also be WITH you - unless there is another Jason.  Now, you can try and stretch the interpretation of this philosophically or theologically - but in the simple way of understanding things - The Word was WITH Elohim and the Word IS Elohim means that "The Word is Elohim with "the rest of Elohim".

Y'shua is Elohim with Yahweh.  But El Elyon is Yahweh the Father and Messiah is the Son.  They are united (echad) but they aren't literally just one entity.  How do you think the universe survived if God the Father died for three days?  No, Y'shua wasn't praying to Himself (which would be mad) or crying to Himself (in Gethsemane) or referring to Himself as the Son one minute and the Father the next.  

It seems you are getting confused with the idea of the oneness of Elohim and the shared authority of the Father and Son.  

14 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

The  Col 1:16-17 says that Y'shua is above of all things to include those that are in heaven (where God dwells) and on earth.    The mystery of the Gospel is that God took on the form of man to pay the debt for all of man sins, to destroy the works of Satan and to restore his kingdom on earth.  

You're getting stuck on one Scripture without considering it all.  But let me give you this in reply.

1 Corinthians 15:27 

"For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."

How do you explain that verse?

14 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

Phl 2:6-11  Though he (Y'shua) was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal's death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I think you've contradicted yourself in this post as it proves what I am saying. 

"he humbled himself in obedience to God"

"Therefore, God elevated him"

"Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"

I don't know why you think this proves that the Son is actually literally the Father.

Y'shua is His image, His authority and power.  To see Him is to see the Father and you don't go through to the Father, except by Y'shua.  But that doesn't mean that Y'shua is actually literally the Father.

14 hours ago, JasonPerkins said:

Paul teaches us that Y'shua was not just apart of the Godhead but that in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead.   Meaning in Y'shua is fully Elohim(plural). 

No.  It means that Y'shua is Elohim, with the Father and the Spirit, with the head above all being Yahweh, the Y'shua, then the Ruach HaKodesh.  

Y'shua comes in the fullness of Elohim meaning all authority of Elohim is with Him.  He isn't just a messenger angel or just a man.  The fullness of Elohim is with Him.  But that doesn't mean there is not Father and Spirit of Elohim.  Again, see my post on co-regency.

I think you need to reconsider your stance as, if you are not careful, you will start to ignore the Father entirely.   

It would be too much of an arduous task for me to list all the verses that clearly show there is a Son and a Father.  Take it back to zero, and re-read the NT with no preconceived ideas.

In summary, as per my posts above: All the authority is given into the hands of the Son, by the Father.  They are one in name and authority.  They are Elohim.  Y'shua is the mighty El, and Yahweh is El Elyon.  Together, with the Spirit, they are Elohim.  One, unified, but distinct from one another.  It's a co-regency between Father ans Son, like the kings of the old testament (as mentioned in previous posts), until all is accomplished and the Son hands the authority back to the Father.

It's tricky.  I wanted to keep this post brief so as to not bore you.  But, in doing so, I think it might come across a bit argumentative/abrupt.  I have come across the misunderstanding before and it ultimately comes down to our English word "God", which is singular.  It causes many issues of comprehension over the Messiah and the Trinity.

I hope something  in my response above helps you.  I hope I haven't offended you in anyway.  It's not my way to outright disagree with another, unless I see the matter is clearly addressed in the Scriptures, and not fuzzy.  I'm not debating for the sake of it - that's not my style.  Rather, I'm offering you the truth in peace.  If you do not see it as the truth, hopefully you can still receive the peace.

May Yahweh bless your studies with Wisdom in the name of our Lord Yahushua.

Love & Shalom

Edited February 14, 2020 by Tzephanyahu

[Jedi4Yahweh]

9 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

On 2/13/2020 at 1:17 PM, JasonPerkins said:

Phl 2:6-11  Though he (Y'shua) was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal's death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I think you've contradicted yourself in this post as it proves what I am saying. 

"he humbled himself in obedience to God"

"Therefore, God elevated him"

"Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"

I don't know why you think this proves that the Son is actually literally the Father.

No brother.   Its not contradicting its just our lack of understanding.  How can Paul say that Y'shua is God and in the same scripture say he submitted himself to God.  Its sounds contradicting, unless you understand that Y'shua is fully God in the flesh, just as the scriptures stated.  While he was in the flesh he humbled himself as man and took off his divine nature and was considered less than God even though he was God.  He did this for an example as to how we are to live for God.   After Y'shua was crucified and was raised from the dead, he returned to his rightful place as God Almighty.  This is why the scriptures says we must believe that HE 'came in the flesh' or we are not of God.   

Edited February 14, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Tzephanyahu]

Hmm, you've only commented on one part of my post, which is a shame. 

I guess we won't able to agree on this matter @JasonPerkins. Oh well, all the best for your studies.  

[dhchristian]

On 2/11/2020 at 3:06 PM, JasonPerkins said:

Hello,

I have been looking into the Hebrew Roots movement because I am not a fan dispensationalsim and really feel the greek/roman mindset which was very antisemitic stripped hebraic roots out of Christianity, such as changing the Sabbath to Sunday and doing away the Feast that God ordained for his people to keep and by replacing some of them with pagan festivals such as Christmas, Easter.  I am in agreement with much of their teachings for the most part but eventually stumbled upon doctrinal issues that really disturbed me; chief one being the denial of the deity of Yahshua.  I am not sure if this core teaching of the Hebrew Roots movement but I have found many do hold to this teaching.   The ones I have met teach that Yahshua is a created being and lower in status to Elohim.   Some teach that Yahshua is a god but not equal to God the Father.   This has been a huge stumbling block for me to accept.   I just want to get your guys take on this and I apologize if this has already been addressed. 

Hi Jason,

This is a good read on the Hebrew roots movement. 

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/january-2014-bewitching-believers-hebrew-roots

[Jedi4Yahweh]

5 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Hi Jason,

This is a good read on the Hebrew roots movement. 

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/january-2014-bewitching-believers-hebrew-roots

@dhchristian

Thanks for the article, but I honestly have to say I dont agree with it.  The premise of that article suggest gentile believers should not impose Jewish/hebrew practices on non-Jewish/Hebrew believers.  That argument has a lot of holes and grounded in antisemitism that was prevalent in Greek and Roman world.   The Hebrew roots movement does not impose Jewish practices but rather biblical practices that Y'shua himself lived by and taught.  Yes, there are a lot of non-biblical Jewish practices (traditions of men) that Y'shua even rebuked, but his is not what Hebrew Roots movement teach.   Y'shua and the early church all kept and taught the commandments, sabbaths, and feast of God.  These are not 'Jewish' practice but rather commandments given by God to his people to follow.