Justin Adams Posted March 5, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,609 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2020 Perhaps some theology 101 is in order here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douge Posted March 6, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 354 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 964 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 181 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 23 hours ago, Justin Adams said: Baptism does not save any more than circumcision saved the Israelis. https://carm.org/baptism-and-1-pet-321 1 Pet. 3:21 says, "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This is the only verse that says "baptism now saves you." But, is it teaching that we must be baptized in water to be saved? No. But, but to rightly understand it, we need to look at its context. "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him," (1 Pet. 3:18-22). The above translation in verse 21 from the NASB is a good translation: "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. It is what the NIV translates as "symbolizes," the NASB as "corresponding to that," and the KJV as "like figure." Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "baptism corresponds to what?" If we look at the context, an interesting possibility arises. What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family - the flood or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith, and he was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Also, Peter consistently refers to the flood waters as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6) - not the salvation of Noah and his family. Rather, it was the Ark that saved - the ark that Noah entered by faith. It may very well be that baptism refers to the Ark - not the waters which may be why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God," which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where he equates baptism with being circumcised of heart. In other words, Peter clarifies that it isn't the water baptism that saves but the appeal to the heart. But, to be fair, the Greek seems to imply that the baptism is referring to the water - not the ark. Still, we need to consider this and make some observations. If we were to look at the flood waters as the thing that removed evil from the land, we could say that "correspondingly" the waters of baptism removes the sin from our hearts. Though this reading seems a bit more natural, it, too, as problems. The water of baptism is not what saves us; the sacrifice of Christ does which we receive by faith. We read numerous verses about justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), salvation by faith (Eph. 2:8), etc., not justification "by faith and baptism" or salvation "by faith and baptism."1 The fact is that salvation is received by faith. Peter, not wanting to declare that baptism itself is what saves us, quickly adds, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." Water baptism, then, must accompany the work of the Holy Spirit in the person. Peter's explanatory comment shows us that the act of physical baptism is not what saves but the "baptism of appeal to God." This appeal to God is by faith the same as Noah's faith in God led him to build the Ark, enter it, and remain in it. It was the Ark that saved Noah - not the flood waters. The flood was for Noah a type of baptism even as the passage through the Red Sea was a type of baptism for the Israelites. "I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same supernatural food 4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ," (1 Cor. 10:1-4). The "baptisms" of both Noah and the Israelites served as types of a transition; that is, they moved people from the old world to the new - from the old covenant to the new covenant. It is not the water that saves but the spiritual thing associated with that water that saves. For Noah, it was faith in God. For Moses, it, too, was faith in God. But some may say that the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of baptism are simultaneous - that the Holy Spirit works in and through baptism to bring regeneration. But this cannot be the case since the Bible tells us that salvation is by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8). Besides, we have a clear instance in scripture where people are saved before their baptism. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16 says that Israel would be saved by believing and baptism. They were baptized for the remission of sins in Mark 1:4 and Acts 2:38. Israel was required to be baptized to be cleansed to be priests in the kingdom of God on earth (Exodus 19:5-6 Exodus 29:4). Of course it was based on the shed blood of Christ and faith. By the way, the like figure in 1 Peter 3:21, I take as being water. They were saved by water in verse 20. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted March 6, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,609 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2020 Baptism does not save. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douge Posted March 7, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 354 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 964 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 181 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2020 On 3/6/2020 at 11:09 AM, Justin Adams said: Baptism does not save. This would be to disregard Mark 16:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted March 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,609 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, douge said: This would be to disregard Mark 16:16 Baptism and circumcision never ever saved.. There will be no Baal worshipers in Heaven or those Baptized that chose other faiths either. BELIEF and LOYALTY is what salvation is all about. 30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” If anyone adds to Salvation, they are in grave danger of misleading people.. Edited March 7, 2020 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douge Posted March 7, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 354 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 964 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 181 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Justin Adams said: Baptism and circumcision never ever saved.. There will be no Baal worshipers in Heaven or those Baptized that chose other faiths either. BELIEF and LOYALTY is what salvation is all about. 30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” If anyone adds to Salvation, they are in grave danger of misleading people.. Now let me be clear, baptism never saved to eternal life...that was always by grace through faith. The baptism for Israel in Mark 16:16 saved them physically to be delivered to enter the Davidic kingdom on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted March 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,609 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, douge said: The baptism for Israel in Mark 16:16 saved them physically to be delivered to enter the Davidic kingdom on earth. So wrong. There is NOT a single item that separates the Saved. All are Israel that believe. There is no Jew or Greek or male or female. Scripture is VERY CLEAR ON THAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douge Posted March 8, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 354 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 964 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 181 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, Justin Adams said: So wrong. There is NOT a single item that separates the Saved. All are Israel that believe. There is no Jew or Greek or male or female. Scripture is VERY CLEAR ON THAT. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. This is what you are citing, but this was revealed to Paul in this dispensation of grace, not before: this is only true of the church today, the body of Christ. Before Christ formed the body of Christ there was separation of Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:12) The body of Christ is not Israel as you say but a new man (Ephesians 2:15) The remnant of Israel will in the future reign with Christ in the kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:4). Edited March 8, 2020 by douge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted March 8, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,609 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, douge said: dispensation of grace Dispensationalism is a flawed theology. Deeply flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted March 10, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,095 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 501 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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