It Just Hit Me?

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Hi, Dennis   Yes, there is a lot of symbolism.  Jesus is comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to a wedding.  The bridegroom is Christ and the ten virgins are Christian maidens on their way to meet the Bridegroom.  The subject of this parable is that we are to remain a true virgin, spiritually speaking, waiting on the true Christ.  We are not to be deceived and “taken” by the antichrist when he arrives.  This parable is talking about the eleventh hour right at the end. The wise studied God’s Word and therefore, knew the signs of the times.  The foolish did not.  The foolish virgins took their lamps but took no reservoir of oil with them.  The oil is symbolic of knowledge (in their foreheads).  The foolish virgins would be unprepared and would fall for the deception of the antichrist (taken).

This could very well be where all my confusion lies? I have it in my head this parable has to do with the marriage of the Lamb, to His bride [individual believers] the church in Heaven, sometime during the tribulation and after the Bema Seat of Christ? I take it you think this is a warning pertaining to the tribulation Saints during antiChrist's rule and the tribulation? 

I'm not sure and that's what I'm seeking. There's a big difference between 'the Kingdom of Heaven' and what I have ingrained in my head, the marriage of the Lamb. Let me reread the entire chapter again in the context of it's talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and see if that clears it up for me? By the Kingdom of Heaven, are you talking about the millennium?

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Jostler said:

As I understand the general progression of a Jewish wedding, there's a betrothal to a virgin....a marriage contract that couldn't be broken except by infidelity.  After the betrothal the Bridegroom left the Bride at her Father's house and returned to His own Father's house to prepare a place He and His Bride would live.  When the Bridegroom's Father was satisfied with the preparations, the Bridegroom would take a procession (friends of the Bridegroom) to the Bride's house to pick her up and take her home to live as husband and wife.

If that's the procedure, would the Bride already be "inside" with the Groom or was He coming to pick her up?

I'm more comfortable understanding the ten virgins as the "betrothed" He was coming to pick up for the feast and consummation. 

Excellent thoughts, and perhaps that's part of where my confusion lies also. Did the bridegroom come to fetch his bride and take her to his fathers house, or was the marriage taking place there and then? I think were thinking along the same lines of the traditional Jewish wedding procedures. If I'm correct, the bridegroom goes to fetch his bride to take her to his fathers house without warning and unannounced [eloping]. These ten virgins know and are suppose to be watching for his imminent arrival very, very soon. They would be close to the house, know which direction he would be coming from, and the bride would also have to know he's on the way? Perhaps my understanding of the traditional Jewish wedding procedure is flawed; instead of the bridegroom suddenly coming to snatch his bride away unexpected and in secret, perhaps he had a procession escort him to retrieve her?  

But, if the bridegroom was coming to pick up his bride; why would he let the five wise virgins in, close and lock the door to the other foolish virgins, if he was immediately going to return to his fathers house with his bride? It strongly appears that some sort of activity was going to take place then and there with guests and witnesses?

Edited March 6, 2020 by Dennis1209

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Jostler said:

that's my understanding....they didn't miss out on salvation.  The time to develop intimacy of relationship ran out.   The time for the wedding was not going to be postponed because they were not serious about being ready. 

You seem to have a pretty good handle on this. So, for better understanding for my slow mind, did the bridegroom come to fetch his bride allowing the five virgins in and closing and locking the door. Or was the marriage going to take place then and there?

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Jostler said:

man i want to dig into this   And I promise you I will tomorrow.  It's going to take a pretty substantial post to address as thoroughly as  I want to.  I'd like to be mentally sharp when I take a shot at it.  I've been up for a while and need some sleep and I'd really like to do these questions justice.

 

I'm looking forward to it also. That's what's great about this forum, exchanging thoughts and hermeneutics to better understand things we don't know and have questions about. 

[Jostler]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'm looking forward to it also. That's what's great about this forum, exchanging thoughts and hermeneutics to better understand things we don't know and have questions about. 

Well I'm up and coffee is kicking in   lol....the way I worded that might sound like I'm certain I got this nailed.....but that's not true.  I have spent considerable time and focus on this parable in the past, and do feel He's given me a lot more insight into it than I once had.  But I don't have it all figured out yet.  What is intimidating is the fact that SO much of my theology got overturned as I did study it in the past....it's an interwoven, complex thing to explain.   Good grief I hardly know where to start.  But i do feel like I'm being led to really dig in again, and ask more questions....and share what I believe I've been shown so far.   Let me first try to give you an idea of what I mean, why it seems intimidating to face the complexity.

At one point in my studies I ran across Hebrews 6:1-3 and ended up stuck there for months.   I know the Lord was wanting me to see, take seriously and OBEY Him in something related to those verses.  And it took literally months to follow through and DO what those verses were exhorting me (us!) to do.  As I studied the six FUNDAMENTAL "doctrines of Christ" listed there, what I learned fundamentally changed my understanding of a MYRIAD of things I thought I had "nailed" already.   I discovered a LOT of stuff I thought the Bible taught was just plain not supportable in Scripture. 

And one of the things that got modified ....overthrown really...was my perception of His plans for the end of this age.   Man....He went "cow tipping" on me   I had sacred cows getting slaughtered left and right in that season.  But, getting those six FUNDAMENTAL doctrines studied out, laid a foundation for a VERY different understanding of many things, including the parable of the ten virgins.  Two of those fundamental doctrines listed that we must MASTER if we expect to move on to maturity are "resurrections" and "eternal judgement".  What we believe about BOTH of those will directly impact our understanding of this parable.   And a lot of other things too.  I came away from that study awestruck at how poorly laid my foundation was.  And I was no novice in the Word and study of it when He pointed out the necessity of getting proficient in those six fundamental doctrines.  Anyway....i do feel drawn back to focusing on this.  I just need to find a starting place, and I trust He'll reveal one somehow if He really is leading me to dig into this for another round.  I'll pray He'll find a way to integrate this complexity that intimidates me at the moment....without adding confusion.

 

We are necessarily going to have to talk about a number of things, most of which I dread, just due to the rancor that surrounds those topics on this forum.  I haven't even TRIED to talk about the "rapture" here because i knew it would be utterly pointless to.  Might still be...dunno :/   But, let me list a few of the things He "adjusted" (understatement) my understanding of ...resulting in the understanding I have now.

1.  The rapture.  And i hate that word now.  It has been used to hide a truth from the eyes of many since it began to be popularly used.  I MUCH prefer the word "resurrection" which is what the Bible calls it.  I don't object to the word because it isn't descriptive....it is.  There IS a great catching away clearly recorded in Scripture and whether we call it a rapture or a harpazo or something else doesn't change that. 

So I don't object to it on the grounds that it is inaccurate.  I object to it because the way it's commonly come to be understood, it focuses us on a single aspect of an event (resurrection) that has two expressions.  One (rapture) describes how this resurrection affects those ALIVE when it happens, and the other expression has to do with how the event (resurrection) affects those who have already died when it happens.  But it's a single event....a resurrection.   And the word rapture has now commonly come to mean a separate event.

 

2.  The nature of and definition of the "Kingdom of Heaven" aka the "Kingdom of God".  And the centrality of the  "gospel of the Kingdom" in Jesus' ministry and teaching.  This parable begins with "Then ( at that time ) the KINGDOM will be like...."  and then He proceeds to paint a picture of the KINGDOM in a wedding parable.  If we don't know what the KINGDOM being spoken of really is, we can't get a handle on this parable at all.  We're not looking at a story of a wedding feast...primarily.  We're looking at a portrait of the KINGDOM, portrayed in a story of a wedding.  But the wedding portrait DOES still give us insight into the wedding of the Bridegroom and the Bride too  :).   It's still important to understand they're two separate subjects that happen to be closely related....just not one and the same. 

 

3.  We have to have a good handle on the millennial reign...a MAJORLY overlooked and incredibly important, necessary event. 

 

4.  We need a SOLID foundation in the FUNDAMENTAL doctrines of "resurrections" and "eternal judgement".  (Hebrews 6:1-3)  We can't really pass "go" on ANY deep subjects without all six of those doctrines well laid and secure in our foundation.

 

Anyway....that's the short list.  I'm kindof idling my motor, trying to listen for a clue on exactly where to bite this doughnut.  I'll go back and try to answer @dhchristian's post, because it truly does relate to all this, but it's not a simple answer.  Maybe that's the starting point.
 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Jostler

[Dennis1209]

21 hours ago, Jostler said:

Well I'm up and coffee is kicking in   lol....the way I worded that might sound like I'm certain I got this nailed.....but that's not true.  I have spent considerable time and focus on this parable in the past, and do feel He's given me a lot more insight into it than I once had.  But I don't have it all figured out yet.  What is intimidating is the fact that SO much of my theology got overturned as I did study it in the past....it's an interwoven, complex thing to explain.   Good grief I hardly know where to start.  But i do feel like I'm being led to really dig in again, and ask more questions....and share what I believe I've been shown so far.   Let me first try to give you an idea of what I mean, why it seems intimidating to face the complexity.

At one point in my studies I ran across Hebrews 6:1-3 and ended up stuck there for months.   I know the Lord was wanting me to see, take seriously and OBEY Him in something related to those verses.  And it took literally months to follow through and DO what those verses were exhorting me (us!) to do.  As I studied the six FUNDAMENTAL "doctrines of Christ" listed there, what I learned fundamentally changed my understanding of a MYRIAD of things I thought I had "nailed" already.   I discovered a LOT of stuff I thought the Bible taught was just plain not supportable in Scripture. 

And one of the things that got modified ....overthrown really...was my perception of His plans for the end of this age.   Man....He went "cow tipping" on me   I had sacred cows getting slaughtered left and right in that season.  But, getting those six FUNDAMENTAL doctrines studied out, laid a foundation for a VERY different understanding of many things, including the parable of the ten virgins.  Two of those fundamental doctrines listed that we must MASTER if we expect to move on to maturity are "resurrections" and "eternal judgement".  What we believe about BOTH of those will directly impact our understanding of this parable.   And a lot of other things too.  I came away from that study awestruck at how poorly laid my foundation was.  And I was no novice in the Word and study of it when He pointed out the necessity of getting proficient in those six fundamental doctrines.  Anyway....i do feel drawn back to focusing on this.  I just need to find a starting place, and I trust He'll reveal one somehow if He really is leading me to dig into this for another round.  I'll pray He'll find a way to integrate this complexity that intimidates me at the moment....without adding confusion.

 

We are necessarily going to have to talk about a number of things, most of which I dread, just due to the rancor that surrounds those topics on this forum.  I haven't even TRIED to talk about the "rapture" here because i knew it would be utterly pointless to.  Might still be...dunno :/   But, let me list a few of the things He "adjusted" (understatement) my understanding of ...resulting in the understanding I have now.

1.  The rapture.  And i hate that word now.  It has been used to hide a truth from the eyes of many since it began to be popularly used.  I MUCH prefer the word "resurrection" which is what the Bible calls it.  I don't object to the word because it isn't descriptive....it is.  There IS a great catching away clearly recorded in Scripture and whether we call it a rapture or a harpazo or something else doesn't change that. 

So I don't object to it on the grounds that it is inaccurate.  I object to it because the way it's commonly come to be understood, it focuses us on a single aspect of an event (resurrection) that has two expressions.  One (rapture) describes how this resurrection affects those ALIVE when it happens, and the other expression has to do with how the event (resurrection) affects those who have already died when it happens.  But it's a single event....a resurrection.   And the word rapture has now commonly come to mean a separate event.

 

2.  The nature of and definition of the "Kingdom of Heaven" aka the "Kingdom of God".  And the centrality of the  "gospel of the Kingdom" in Jesus' ministry and teaching.  This parable begins with "Then ( at that time ) the KINGDOM will be like...."  and then He proceeds to paint a picture of the KINGDOM in a wedding parable.  If we don't know what the KINGDOM being spoken of really is, we can't get a handle on this parable at all.  We're not looking at a story of a wedding feast...primarily.  We're looking at a portrait of the KINGDOM, portrayed in a story of a wedding.  But the wedding portrait DOES still give us insight into the wedding of the Bridegroom and the Bride too  :).   It's still important to understand they're two separate subjects that happen to be closely related....just not one and the same. 

 

3.  We have to have a good handle on the millennial reign...a MAJORLY overlooked and incredibly important, necessary event. 

 

4.  We need a SOLID foundation in the FUNDAMENTAL doctrines of "resurrections" and "eternal judgement".  (Hebrews 6:1-3)  We can't really pass "go" on ANY deep subjects without all six of those doctrines well laid and secure in our foundation.

 

Anyway....that's the short list.  I'm kindof idling my motor, trying to listen for a clue on exactly where to bite this doughnut.  I'll go back and try to answer @dhchristian's post, because it truly does relate to all this, but it's not a simple answer.  Maybe that's the starting point.
 

EDIT: Upon additional study by other knowledgeable Bible teachers; my thoughts below my be incorrect so disregard. The kingdom of Heaven vs. the kingdom of God may well be interchangeable and synonymous with each other. Again, it all goes back to whom you study and your own personal hermeneutics of scripture. 

Hi Jostler,

Thank you for giving us your understanding and well said. Like I previously mentioned, I'm trying to get a handle on it and trying to understand the parable. As you said, it can be so complex to grasp the full meaning. I'm hesitant to bring this up and get side tracked [rabbit holes], but I think it might be a foundation to understanding it? 

There are eight kingdoms represented in the Bible; each looks like they are distinct and separate. It's my thoughts the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven are not interchangeable, but two separate and distinct kingdoms? To be extremely brief; these two kingdoms constitute the central message of the New Testament.

The kingdom of heaven is linked directly to the visible or physical heavens, just as the kingdom of God is linked to the invisible God. The kingdom of God is God ruling in the hearts of men and other created beings, and the kingdom of heaven is intended to be God ruling through men in the earth and the heavens - which includes all kingdoms, powers, principalities, and dominions. 

Perhaps I'm making this more complex than it needs to be and getting more confused?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Dennis1209

[Jostler]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You seem to have a pretty good handle on this. So, for better understanding for my slow mind, did the bridegroom come to fetch his bride allowing the five virgins in and closing and locking the door. Or was the marriage going to take place then and there?

That right there is one of my own questions.  At this point I don't know.  It does sound to me like the Bridegroom showed up, He and the five prepared virgins went inside while the five unprepared went to try to buy more oil.  By the time they returned, the door had been shut and they were too late.  We're not told the Bridegroom had taken them back to His Father's house at this point....so was the "location" the Bride's house?   Right now I think that's the most likely answer for several reasons, but maybe He'll nail that down for us as this conversation unfolds.  Where does the wedding FEAST take place in a Jewish wedding?  At the Bride's house or the Groom's house?  Is the marriage consummated at the same place as the feast?   Not sure of the answers to those questions yet.

[Heleadethme]

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

That sounds reasonable, however; for all practical purposes and legally in the eyes of Jewish law, they are already legally married when they are betrothed, even before the formal marriage and consummation.

Yes....betrothal is legally binding.  The thing is to understand how it applies as a parable speaking to us as followers of Christ.

[Dennis1209]

2 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes....betrothal is legally binding.  The thing is to understand how it applies as a parable speaking to us as followers of Christ.

Exactly, and the reason for the post...

[Heleadethme]

20 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This Whole back and forth between you and @Heleadethme is definitely "worthy". Good stuff.

How does this fit in Using your called, chosen, and faithful?

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev. 17:14)

And this? 

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:7-9a)

 

Praise the Lord for His light unto our path.  I am not sure if this answers what you are asking here, but I believe this is a matter of GROWING into the full stature of Christ.....and we are building on the foundation so we keep ADDING to what we have already attained, so to speak.