Daniel Marsh Posted March 14, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,090 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 501 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Author Share Posted March 14, 2020 "Look at how the Holy Spirit is described in Scripture: The Holy Spirit speaks. "The Spirit clearly says . . ." -- 1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit told Philip, 'Go to that chariot . . . .'" -- Acts 8:29< "While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, 'Simon, three men . . .'" Acts 10:19 "The Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart . . . " -- Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit actively teaches. "The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things" -- John 14:26 The Holy Spirit gives testimony. "The Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me" -- John 14:26 The Holy Spirit guides, hears, speaks and tells. "When he, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you. . . He will speak only what He hears and He will tell you what is yet to come" -- John 16:13 (look at all those personal persons in that passage; there's no "it" among them) The Holy Spirit forbids. "Having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the Word . . . the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them" -- Acts 16:6-7 The Holy Spirit intercedes or prays. "The Spirit Himself intercedes for us . . . The Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" -- Romans 8:26-27 All six of these characteristics point to the Holy Spirit being a person. Does "wind" or "influence" or a "force" do these things? That's not all. There are more characteristics of the Holy Spirit that demonstrate His personhood. The Holy Spirit has a mind. "He knows the mind of the Spirit" -- Romans 8:27 The Holy Spirit has active knowledge. "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God" -- 1 Corinthians 1:10. Would an "active force" be said to search all things? The Holy Spirit possesses affection. "by the love of the Spirit" -- Romans 15:30. Would an "active force" be said to love? The Holy Spirit has a will. "He gives them to each one, just as He determines" 1 Corinthians 12:11. Could an "active force" or influence make decisions like this Scripture describes? Don't these last four characteristics signify that the Holy Spirit possesses intelligence and personality? For instance, have you ever known an impersonal force that "loved" something or someone? Then, there is the fact that Scripture says the Holy Spirit can suffer personal slights and injuries. Can an impersonal force can be offended in the following ways? The Holy Spirit can be grieved. "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" -- Ephesians 4:30 The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. "The blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven" -- Matthew 12:31-32 The Holy Spirit can be insulted. "who has insulted the Spirit of grace" -- Hebrews 10:29 The Holy Spirit can be lied to. "You have lied to the Holy Spirit" -- Acts 5:3 The Holy Spirit can be resisted. "You always resist the Holy Spirit" -- Acts 7:51 One could possibly say that one or two of these do not constitute proof of the personality of the Holy Spirit." http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/jehovahh.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted March 14, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,090 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 501 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Author Share Posted March 14, 2020 Historically, concerning that text, He moved paradise to heaven thus moving all the saints in the grave to heaven. "23. But what is, You have led captivity captive? Is it because He has conquered death, which was holding captive those over whom it reigned? Or has he called men themselves captivity, who were being held captive under the devil? Which thing's mystery even the title of that Psalm does contain, to wit, when the house was being built after the captivity: that is, the Church after the coming in of the Gentiles. Calling therefore those very men who were being held captive a captivity, as when the service is spoken of there are understood those that serve also, that same captivity he says by Christ has been led captive. For why should not captivity be happy, if even for a good purpose men may be caught? Whence to Peter has been said, From henceforth you shall catch men. Luke 5:10 Led captive therefore they are because caught, and caught because subjugated, being sent under that gentle yoke, Matthew 11:30 being delivered from sin whereof they were servants, and being made servants of righteousness Romans 6:18 whereof they were children. Whence also He is Himself in them, that has given gifts to men, and has received gifts in men. And thus in that captivity, in that servitude, in that chariot, under that yoke, there are not thousands of men lamenting, but thousands of men rejoicing. For the Lord is in them, in Sina, in the holy place.. .."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801068.htm "4. Of Him it is said, He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, He gave gifts unto men. What is, He led captivity captive? He conquered death. What is, He led captivity captive? The devil was the author of death, and the devil was himself by the Death of Christ led captive. He ascended up on high. What do we know higher than heaven? Visibly and before the eyes of His disciples He ascended into heaven. This we know, this we believe, this we confess. He gave gifts unto men. What gifts? The Holy Spirit. He who gives such a Gift, what is He Himself? For great is God's mercy; He gives a Gift equal to Himself; for His Gift is the Holy Spirit, and the Whole Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Spirit, is One God." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160378.htm "The search into the greatness of the Father became to her a passion leading to destruction; but the Lord, having suffered, and bestowing the knowledge of the Father, conferred on us salvation. Her passion, as they declare, gave origin to a female offspring, weak, infirm, unformed, and ineffective; but His passion gave rise to strength and power. For the Lord, through means of suffering, ascending into the lofty place, led captivity captive, gave gifts to men, and conferred on those that believe in Him the power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy, that is, of the leader of apostasy. Our Lord also by His passion destroyed death, and dispersed error, and put an end to corruption, and destroyed ignorance, while He manifested life and revealed truth, and bestowed the gift of incorruption. But their Æon, when she had suffered, established ignorance, and brought forth a substance without shape, out of which all material works have been produced — death, corruption, error, and such like." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103220.htm https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03jbMKa_W5iMfdUCVDzyh9xmQH-Pg%3A1584217097547&ei=CTxtXof2IIuGtQXpua2oBg&q=raised+dead+site%3Anewadvent.org&oq=raised+dead+site%3Anewadvent.org&gs_l=psy-ab.3...582514.585457..586012...0.0..0.175.1273.6j6......0....1..gws-wiz.ODNu5UPnttk&ved=0ahUKEwjHnuLK5JroAhULQ60KHelcC2UQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV) 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 6 hours ago, maryjayne said: Have you attended a Jehovah's witnesses baptism? They are baptized in the name of Jehovah God, nothing else. I had a full emersion baptism as a Christian a few years after leaving the JW's. I had previously been baptized as a JW. But even under the law arrangement righteousness was imputed only by the shedding of blood. In viewing the sacrifice and ransom of Jesus we must bear in mind the plain statement of Scripture that “unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.” That is why Israel through the high priest continuously offered the blood of animals to obtain, in a pictorial sense, the yearly release from sins. But with the coming of Jesus Christ there is a great change, for “he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting release for us.” (Heb. 9:22, 12, NW) No more was it necessary to periodically offer animal blood, for the one who was foreshadowed by these animal sacrifices had come and established an everlasting release. Now it was a matter of qualifying to receive the benefit of that release by ransom. 3. In what way was the sacrifice of Jesus superior? 3 The entry of Jesus Christ to make propitiation for the sins of humankind and thus effect a release was not an entry into any earthly temple. “For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands [as the high priest of Israel did] which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. . . . the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many.” (Heb. 9:24-28) It was into the presence of Jehovah God in heaven that Christ went, following his resurrection, to offer the merit of the perfect lifeblood he had poured out, this to effect a permanent release for those of mankind who would exercise faith in the merit of that ransom. Peter confirms that it is the shed blood of Jesus that provides the ransom merit: “For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.”—1 Pet. 1:18, 19 ........................ With all due respect when someone believes that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and he offered his blood for the forgiveness of our sins......(even figuratively as in the description above).... As Jesus said: this is the blood of the new Covenant to be shed for the forgiveness of sins... IS SAVED just to start.....then we have questions and we need to examine if they are a "salvation issue"... Not all errors are fatal to Salvation.... This is from the Statement of Faith of JW. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, maryjayne said: That is what I mean about weasel words. JW's don't even have the baptism of John. According to their website they have forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ by faith...in his death on the Cross.... We do not need the water baptism.... Jesus Christ is cleansing us without the water....that what he said: "If you do not believe in me you are in your sins". The baptism is for the people....God knows the heart...he knows who believes, because anyone who believes has the Spirit of God in his heart.. The Spirit of Jesus Christ crying Abba Father together with our Spirit.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 53 minutes ago, maryjayne said: You are missing my point. They do not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The deity, the true Christ. It's like having secular Christmas and religious Christmas. They use the same name, but mean different things. They believe in a angel man called Jesus. They are not putting their trust and faith into Jesus the deity. Does that help explain the difference? This is from their website... They call Jesus the Christ. . they do not denied that Jesus is the Christ....they believe that Jesus is the Christ... That Jesus made the atonement for our sins...they do not wait for someone else to make the atonement.... THEY BELIEVE THAT THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN IS ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST .... They are not like the old Testament.... 13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: But even under the law arrangement righteousness was imputed only by the shedding of blood. In viewing the sacrifice and ransom of Jesus we must bear in mind the plain statement of Scripture that “unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.” That is why Israel through the high priest continuously offered the blood of animals to obtain, in a pictorial sense, the yearly release from sins. But with the coming of Jesus Christ there is a great change, for “he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting release for us.” (Heb. 9:22, 12, NW) No more was it necessary to periodically offer animal blood, for the one who was foreshadowed by these animal sacrifices had come and established an everlasting release. Now it was a matter of qualifying to receive the benefit of that release by ransom. 3. In what way was the sacrifice of Jesus superior? 3 The entry of Jesus Christ to make propitiation for the sins of humankind and thus effect a release was not an entry into any earthly temple. “For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands [as the high priest of Israel did] which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. . . . the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many.” (Heb. 9:24-28) It was into the presence of Jehovah God in heaven that Christ went, following his resurrection, to offer the merit of the perfect lifeblood he had poured out, this to effect a permanent release for those of mankind who would exercise faith in the merit of that ransom. Peter confirms that it is the shed blood of Jesus that provides the ransom merit: “For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.”—1 Pet. 1:18, 19 ................. This is from the Statement of Faith of JW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 38 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: According to their website they have forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ by faith...in his death on the Cross.... We do not need the water baptism.... Jesus Christ is cleansing us without the water....that what he said: "If you do not believe in me you are in your sins". The baptism is for the people....God knows the heart...he knows who believes, because anyone who believes has the Spirit of God in his heart.. The Spirit of Jesus Christ crying Abba Father together with our Spirit.. When I did my Paper for my Soc. of Religion class We visited a Kingdom hall, and interviewed the elders etc. within that church, what struck me most is how similar they were to the little Baptist church I was brought up in, and even sung some of the same hymns we did back then. But when you actually study their writings of the watchtower society and dig deeper you see how they have coopted the language the Church uses putting their spin on that language. This I believe is what @maryjayne is referring to as "weasel words". They may say some of the "right things" but they mean exactly the opposite of what they say. I Posted an article of two former elders of the JW's in the apologetics section and it is worth reading if you have time. This will show you some of these things. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249587-testimony-of-former-jehovahs-witnesses/?tab=comments#comment-3160432 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, dhchristian said: When I did my Paper for my Soc. of Religion class We visited a Kingdom hall, and interviewed the elders etc. within that church, what struck me most is how similar they were to the little Baptist church I was brought up in, and even sung some of the same hymns we did back then. But when you actually study their writings of the watchtower society and dig deeper you see how they have coopted the language the Church uses putting their spin on that language. This I believe is what @maryjayne is referring to as "weasel words". They may say some of the "right things" but they mean exactly the opposite of what they say. I Posted an article of two former elders of the JW's in the apologetics section and it is worth reading if you have time. This will show you some of these things. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249587-testimony-of-former-jehovahs-witnesses/?tab=comments#comment-3160432 Someone is not Saved with what someones elses understands... They have Jesus as their Christ... You cannot take that away from them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said: This is from their website... They call Jesus the Christ. . they do not denied that Jesus is the Christ....they believe that Jesus is the Christ... That Jesus made the atonement for our usins...they do not wait for someone else to make the atonement.... THEY BELIEVE THAT THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN IS ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST .... They are not like the old Testament.... 34 minutes ago, maryjayne said: Are you a Jehovah's witness? After you read my post... You still need to make this kind of question!!! why do you believe you have the Spirit of Christ.... What the scriptures say...the other doctrinal issue as the water baptism is not a Salvation issue....as the water baptism is for SAVED PEOPLE... PS I did not bring up any other of their doctrines... Only how they believe they have forgiveness of sins....and the scriptures to support it...Hebrews and Peter's letters written at a matured age.... Judge for your self... Edited March 15, 2020 by Your closest friendnt Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morrow Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 376 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1955 Share Posted March 15, 2020 UNDERSTANDING FROM WHO --- AND WHY DONT YOU HAVE IT PSALM 56:4 in GOD I will praise --HIS WORD-- in GOD I have put my trust -- I will not fear what flesh can do unto me --56:5-- everyday they wrest MY WORDS all their thoughts are against ME for evil *******2 TIMOTHY 2:7 CONSIDER WHAT I SAY AND THE LORD GIVE THEE UNDERSTANDING IN ALL THINGS******* 1 JOHN 5:20 AND WE KNOW THAT THE SON OF GOD IS COME AND HATH GIVEN US AN UNDERSTANDING THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE AND WE ARE IN HIM THAT IS TRUE ---EVEN IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST--- THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE COLOSSIANS 1:27 to whom GOD would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles which --IS CHRIST IN YOU--the hope of glory ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ***is it not true that it is JESUS CHRIST that is in the brethren and children of GOD and therefore the holy spirit also is in you*** JOHN 6:63 it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words --THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU--they are spirit and they are life PROVERBS 15:4 A WHOLESOME TONGUE IS A TREE OF LIFE BUT PERVERSENESS THEREIN IS BREACH IN THE SPIRIT JOHN 14:6 JESUS saith unto him --I AM THE WAY--THE TRUTH--AND THE LIFE-- NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *******PROVERBS 21:16 THE MAN THAT WANDERETH OUT OF THE WAY OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL REMAIN IN THE CONGREGATION OF THE DEAD******* ECCLESIASTES 12:11 the words of the wise are as goads and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies which are given from --ONE SHEPHERD JOHN 10:16 and other sheep I have which are not of this fold them also I must bring and they shall hear MY VOICE and there shall be one fold and ---ONE SHEPHERD--- JOHN 10:11 I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD THE GOOD SHEPHERD GIVETH HIS LIFE FOR THE SHEEP HEBREWS 13:12 WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO THAT --HE-- MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD SUFFERED WITHOUT THE GATE 1 PETER 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge ---OF GOD THE FATHER---through sanctification of the spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of JESUS CHRIST grace unto you and peace be multiplied 1 CORINTHIANS 1:30 BUT OF HIM ARE YOU IN CHRIST JESUS WHO OF GOD IS MADE UNTO US WISDOM AND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND --SANCTIFICATION-- AND REDEMPTION JOHN 17:17 SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THY TRUTH THY WORD IS TRUTH ACTS 20:32 AND NOW BRETHREN I COMMEND YOU TO GOD AND TO THE WORD OF HIS GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO BUILD YOU UP AND TO GIVE YOU AN INHERITANCE AMONG ALL THEM WHICH ARE SANCTIFIED ACTS 3:22 for moses truly said unto the fathers --A PROPHET SHALL THE LORD YOUR GOD RAISE UP UNTO YOU OF YOUR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO ME HIM SHALL YOU HEAR ---IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU--- ACTS 3:23 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT --EVERY SOUL-- WHICH WILL ---NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET--- WHICH WILL NOT HEAR--- THAT PROPHET SHALL BE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE PROVERBS 17:15 HE THAT JUSTIFIETH THE WICKED AND HE THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST EVEN THEY BOTH ARE ABOMINATION TO THE LORD LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 15, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2020 15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: But even under the law arrangement righteousness was imputed only by the shedding of blood. In viewing the sacrifice and ransom of Jesus we must bear in mind the plain statement of Scripture that “unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.” That is why Israel through the high priest continuously offered the blood of animals to obtain, in a pictorial sense, the yearly release from sins. But with the coming of Jesus Christ there is a great change, for “he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting release for us.” (Heb. 9:22, 12, NW) No more was it necessary to periodically offer animal blood, for the one who was foreshadowed by these animal sacrifices had come and established an everlasting release. Now it was a matter of qualifying to receive the benefit of that release by ransom. 3. In what way was the sacrifice of Jesus superior? 3 The entry of Jesus Christ to make propitiation for the sins of humankind and thus effect a release was not an entry into any earthly temple. “For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands [as the high priest of Israel did] which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. . . . the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many.” (Heb. 9:24-28) It was into the presence of Jehovah God in heaven that Christ went, following his resurrection, to offer the merit of the perfect lifeblood he had poured out, this to effect a permanent release for those of mankind who would exercise faith in the merit of that ransom. Peter confirms that it is the shed blood of Jesus that provides the ransom merit: “For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.”—1 Pet. 1:18, 19 ........................ With all due respect when someone believes that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and he offered his blood for the forgiveness of our sins...belongs to God...is not in his sins... This is from a JW website... Your statement in your post is as follows: . 28 minutes ago, maryjayne said: They don't believe that Jesus bought salvation. According to their website this statement is incorrect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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