The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Now, if I said that we (humans) would still be driving gasoline powered automobiles 200 years from now, and it came to pass that we were still driving gasoline powered automobiles 200 years from now, would that make me a prophet, or merely a historian?  I'm trying to think of any historian that has ever given an account of history to come.  I guess it could be said of such a person that he or she would be considered a historical prophet.  But, isn't that kinda what all true prophets are?

When we think of what Jesus prophesied, why should it seem odd that some of what He said would take place had taken place before?  Consider afresh this post of mine from over a year ago...

The question I have posed never seems to be answered. If it was I didn't see it. I'm not saying it's you specifically that didn't answer it, no one has. Here it is again:

If Matt 24:4-8, "“See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains." are the signs of the end, but have not only been happening since the 1st century but also since the distant past some 2-3000 years before Christ, what differentiates Matt 24:4-8 from 4-5000 years of history so that we know it's the lead up to the end and the terminal generation per Matt 24:34, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened"?

If you are saying Matt 24:4-8 is the history of the church from the 1st century to today, what context is used for the same events occurring in the 2000 or 3000 years prior to Jesus of Nazareth? Wars, earthquakes, famine plague and pestilence occurred throughout history long before Jesus. In fact two examples from ancient Egypt emphasize the point: the 10 plagues and the 7 year famine, both well before the Olivet Discourse and both exceedingly brutal. There are many, many such examples of Matt 24:4-8 in ancient times

In my mind then Matt 24:4-8 doesn't stand out as future prophecy at all if it's retroactive to the 1st century. And if we assign it such a length of time them we must assign it a further span of time all the way back to Cain.

I think what's missed is this important feature of Matt 24:4-8

"“There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.""

This idea of various is 'kata' as follows:

kata: down, against, according to

Original Word: κατά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: kata
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ah')
Definition: down, against, according to
Usage: gen: against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of.

HELPS Word-studies

2596 katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" (J. Thayer).

This is far the natural bent of the evil heart of mankind and the common trials of a fallen creation, this is rained down from on high and is a constant strain on the earth. 

In a proper sense down from above referencing the impact on the end point?

This is so far out of the realm of natural disaster and mankind's proclivity for death and destruction I'm dumbfounded you would think otherwise. 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

It would have been easy for the followers of Christ to hope, or even suppose, that things would be different after Christ's resurrection, and especially after what happened on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  In hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus, in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some Christianity-specific ways.

Think about it---Things could have been such that none would even presume to regard themselves to be some kind of Messiah, or Christ, but many have since that time, and several have in our own generation, like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Father Divine, David Koresh, and others whose names I can't remember. 

Concerning wars, Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that these would, in our generation, be considered something of the long distant past, but it's not quite that way, is it?

Also, modern man (with much pride) could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of the earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.

Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established. Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Isn't that something?

Things could have turned out such that of Jesus Christ, history would bear out that He didn't know what He was talking about.  What do you think?  I think Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  Shouldn't surprise us, He being THE DIVINE CARPENTER!

Early in what we now call the Church Age, our brothers and sisters in Christ might not have made all the connections, but now we have the perspective of retrospect.  As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and some 2000 years of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that Jesus did indeed speak of things very relevant to the Church.  Think about it:  What He said for openers (e.g. Matt. 24:4-11) has fit every century of the Christian era, if not every decade, if not every year.  The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!

Now, after the rapture, I certainly believe that there will be an escalation of things---in the same category of which Jesus spoke---and even to the point of running rampant---but this happens in connection with the sounding of the trumpets.  For example, during that time, deception will run rampant, even to the setting up of the kingdom of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:1-5ff).  Secondly, during that time we have an account of some kind of war, wherein one-third of the population will be killed (Rev. 9:15-18).  There has never been this kind of war.  Thirdly, the catastrophes (and resultant poverty) of that time will be on a scale that seems unimaginable (Rev. 8:6-13).  And fourthly, there will be no limit to the persecution and martyrdom that will take place during that time, for all who will not succumb to the rule of the Antichrist will be subject to death (Rev. 13:11-15ff).  From another angle, for those who can accept that the four horsemen have been riding since early in the Church Era, the tribulation they have already caused is just a precursor to what they and/or their cohorts will effect after the Church is gone.

The way I see it, we have compelling evidence that the first four seals were opened early in the era of the Church (as early as late first century), and represent not future judgments of God that pertain to Daniel's 70th Week (as so commonly interpreted), but present liberties that have been granted to Satan (he would have NONE otherwise!) to ply his craft post-Cross.  I can almost see Satan negotiating with God for these liberties.  I again submit that these seals reveal the spiritual realm activities of Satan---and his henchmen, the four horsemen---to bring about tribulation during the centuries of NT Christianity.  As I see it, the four horsemen have been riding all this time and have left their trails down through the corridors of Church history, even unto our present day.

I'm unmoved. This is just too subjective. We serve a mighty King and it's His word we cling to, not personal belief.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Before moving on Diaste, as I see it, the thing of forecasting what tomorrow holds is too big for me (other than it won't be any different than what Jesus spoke 2000 years ago).  I could easily imagine the Caesar's thinking that it wouldn't be too long till there wouldn't be any further war, for the empire's subject peoples would eventually realize that it was in their best interest to cease resisting Rome.  Hey, with America's bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the subsequent end of World War II, it could have been logically surmised that the threat of nuclear war would be a deterrent to any further wars.  I mean, why didn't pacifism take?  Well, we know Diaste.  I'm just saying that things could have been a lot different.  I mean, what if atheists had been right, and it was found that we did indeed evolve from lifeless muck?  It could have been that we annihilated ourselves in the 70's---then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Or, it could have been that the aliens that seeded our planet with life way back yonder made the scene at the turn of the century and now we are back and forth with them through worm holes doing space exploration at warp speeds...

It's not convincing. I've read all the novels dealing with the imagination of mankind. They are an escape at best but not serious study nor valid conclusions. We will all see soon enough.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

 It's in our face.

Not just yet.

[Diaste]

On 3/30/2021 at 8:54 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I believe when you have replied to me in the past with words like, "Except dispensationalism is a farce,"  you were convinced that I was a dispensationalist with some kind of agenda connected thereto.  I had thought that of late you were probably beginning to realize that I'm not a dispensationalist after all.  I guess I was mistaken.  I do understand that dispensationalists are big on the use of the phrase Church Age.  But, does my use of that phrase to describe this period of post-cross history of which we are a part, as it connects with what Jesus said that He was going to build, which was added to on the Day of Pentecost---and continues to be added to---make me a dispensationalist?  What part of what I just said is a farce?

As far as I'm concerned any reference to some change in the way of salvation or approach to God or the existence of Christ and His profound being and character is dispensational at it's core and is incorrect doctrine. When Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures to prove the words and concepts Paul spoke were accurate they were searching the Pentateuch and the prophets.

This means the Gospel is proved by the OT and was always there from the beginning. There is no change, only that which was obscured is now plain as day. In fact most of the NT is made up of quotations from the OT. The most important speeches by Peter have many references to ancient prophets. They all knew. The arrogance of contemporary Christianity won't allow for this truth however.

On 3/30/2021 at 8:54 PM, not an echo said:

You know that there was a time in my experience on this forum when I determined to no longer use the word "age" connected with the Church, because of its dispensational connotations---and mostly because of you !!!  Instead, I began to use the word "era" to denote the post-Cross period of history of which we are a part.  For some months, any use of the word "age" on this forum by me has been rare, with qualifications, and only because of its familiarity.  Moreover, the subject of dispensationalism has never succeeded in keeping my interest.  I've already said more about the subject than I intended to.  But, I guess I've said what I've said to ask this:  What terms do you think would be preferable to use when speaking of this post-cross era of which we are a part, as it connects with the institution that Christ said that He was going to build, which was added to on the Day of Pentecost---and continues to be added to?

This would be valid if one assumes Pentecost was the first time the Spirit came upon people. What do you do with the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11? Elijah, Elisha, David, Enoch, Joshua, Moses and others too many to number all had the Spirit of God in and one them. To conclude the Spirit only came to men 50 days later is unbiblical.

On 3/30/2021 at 8:54 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "replacement theology is worse than that,"  I'm thinking .  Why would you saying something like that in your reply to what I've put forth?

Concerning the rest of your post, wherever did you get the idea that I was believing that there has been an A of D "post ascension, or post 70 AD"???  In strict accord with how you worded the last paragraph of your reply, I agree.

It's the insistence on the pretrib scenario. In my experience here and researching  every pretrib adherent is both dispensational and supersessionist. They have to be. The 'church' must have a special status under pretrib doctrine in that it is more holy than everyone else, that the Jews alone are the object of punishment, that the extant 'church' avoids all ills while lesser beings do not, and receives a secret imminent exit unavailable to their Jewish brothers, who only deserve punishment, and the potential believers in Jesus who must endure what pretrib classifies as the wrath of God.

Dispensationalism and supersessionism are the bedrock of pretrib and both are false. Know how I know that? Raised pretrib. Spent many years increasing my knowledge of pretrib. Know what else? The doctrine has changed to combat the pressure of scriptural assaults the doctrine can't ignore. Know what doesn't change? Jesus words. The comparison is the death of the pretrib doctrine.

I don't think I said you believe there had been an A of D. I'm pretty sure I'm asking when did it happen. This goes back to Matt 24:34. When did all this happen in the span of a single generation?

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/31/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

I keep getting the impression that there is an undercurrent with your replies to what I have put forth that connects way more with your rejection of the common pre-trib view than it does with anything that I have actually said.  I feel that it is needful for me to keep reinforcing that mine is A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation.

Still pretrib though. Can't make a gold ring from dross.

On 3/31/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

Whereas the common view would have the seals as being inseparable from Daniel's 70th Week, I don't see any evidence of Daniel's 70th Week until Revelation 11:1-3.  I believe Scripture and history consistently bears out (and will bear out) that the seals pertain to the post-cross era, which will continue until the NT Church is raptured.  This means that I understand all seven seals as pertaining exclusively to this era.  How in?

I understand the first four seals as being opened before the close of the first century, and the activity of the four horsemen as having continued from then even until this very day of 3/31/21.  When understood within the bounds that Scripture affords, the 5th, 6th, and 7th Seals can be opened today, 3/31/21.  If today were the day, the 5th Seal could have been opened this morning (on any given day, I see it as being open), with the cry of the martyrs appropriately replied to in accord with the narrative.  After this, the 6th Seal could be opened (even as I am now typing), and the Sign Appearance of Christ (which includes the rapture) could take place---easily.  Within the next hours, or even the next minutes, the 7th Seal could be opened as well.  There is no Scriptural bound that prohibits such a view.

Joel disappoints here. The 1st and 3rd trump have sounded by the time of the A of D. The idea the 6th seal is the nest to open puts us already past the midpoint of the week as the 6th seal is the sign of Jesus coming. Per Matt 24 this is only after the A of D and the GT. 

On 3/31/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

As I see the Seven Sealed Book being all about the Day of the Lord, I believe an appropriate title for this book could be THE DAY OF THE LORD.  In accord with my understanding of the seals, I see the seals as representing what will take place leading up to the Day of the Lord.  When it is understood that the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, this makes the cry of those left behind in Revelation 6:17 true indeed:  "For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?"

Left behind? There's that dispensational supersessionist Hal Lindsey, Walvoord doctrine again.

On 3/31/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

Now, let me see if I can go a little further before having to sign off this afternoon.  There is also no Scriptural bounds that would prohibit the understanding that the first four trumpets can be sounded the same day as the Seven Sealed Book is opened.  Of course, the "third part" destruction that occurs with the sounding of these four trumpets is huge.  But, if this third part destruction is hemisphere specific---and the hemisphere is our Western Hemisphere---huge is an understatement.  If you have been able to read my other threads, I have pointed out that the geography of our Western Hemisphere represents the third part of the earth to within less than one-percent.  When you stand back and look at the possibility that both the Church and what is in our Western Hemisphere can be taken out of the picture on the same day, the prophetic implications of this are immense.  Consider:  This would mean that as the Church and what is in our Western Hemisphere were not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 Weeks of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy, neither will these be a part of the 70th Week.  Talk about a STAGE RESET!

Moreover, if the only remaining population of the earth at the end of Daniel's 70th Week exists in the hemisphere of which Israel is a part, this takes all the mystery away for how that "every eye" will simultaneously behold Christ at His Second Coming.

Concerning the 5th Trumpet and part of the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-21), I see these connecting with the final preparations of the stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  As soon as the stage is fully ready, the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" (Rev. 10 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10), and the curtain is opened to reveal the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:1-3ff).  Consider again Revelation 11:1 with Matthew 24:15 and II Thessalonians 2:3-4.

There are a lot of assumptions here born of arguments from silence. There would have to be two or three thread to deal with them. 

However, both Joel and Matthew contradict the above. Trumps sound before the A of D or in conjunction with. Any scenario that has the first 5 seals opened put us past the midpoint of the week.

On 3/31/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

 

For me, this understanding is in such harmony with Scripture that it is Divine.  I mean by this, that it came from God, through the leadership of His Holy Spirit, in accord with what Jesus said to His first disciples in John 16:13, the night before He was crucified.

Show me something that is more from God Diaste...

Okay...because the claim is made it came from God is nothing short of sloganeering in this case. Every one that adheres to some doctrine claims the same thing and it's not any kind of proof. Written documentation is proof. Every rapture doctrine says the same thing. That's a real problem, don't you agree? Most telling for me is the dogged reliance on personal belief. Most just say, "I believe...." and then to them it takes on the weight of holy writ. You're convinced. I see that. 

 

The Bereans searched the scriptures for proof, they didn't believe Paul's claims until the written word confirmed; and Paul used the same words as you did above. So have hundreds of others. 

[not an echo]

On 3/29/2021 at 4:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I know, I know.  Did Jesus mean this, or did He mean something else?

I think of the opening verses of The Revelation, as recorded in chapter 1:

 1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS;  and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

 2  Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

 3  BLESSED IS HE THAT READETH, AND THEY THAT HEAR THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, AND KEEP THOSE THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN THEREIN:  FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

I know, I know.  Did what John record mean this, of did it mean something else?

I'm pretty sure I said this before but a close look at the ideas of the words for 'at hand' and 'shortly come to pass' are not the same as we define it today. And if  'at hand' meant NOW and 'shortly come to pass' meant 'soon' then why did only some of Revelation come to pass? Why did 5 seals take 1988 years to unroll effects but 2 waited nearly 2000 years? That's not 'soon' or 'now'.

Hello Diaste (and all),

Hope everyone has had a blessed Easter. 

When the opening three verses of The Revelation are understood in the basic sense of this prophecy being at hand to begin to be fulfilled, everything comes together much better than anything else that I have ever seen put forth.  For most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.  And Diaste, concerning what you say, "but a close look at the ideas of the words for 'at hand' and 'shortly come to pass' are not the same as we define it today",  this all depends on what definitions of the words you choose to embrace or dismiss.  I would encourage you to look again at whether the meanings you have embraced are as straitjacketed as you have supposed.  A couple of sites that I have liked for word studies are biblehub.com and blueletterbible.org.  I find these to be especially user friendly, which is especially important for someone who is old school like me!  For comparison, I would be fine with looking into a site that you may prefer as well.  Also, I know you will realize that the matter of the translation of any sentence or paragraph is more involved than the definition of any of its constituent parts. 

Concerning your two questions, while I don't think it necessary to our correct understanding of The Revelation, it can be rightly argued that 2000 years are like a couple of days from God's perspective (I Pet. 3:8).  Once more, the better understanding comes with the realization that what John was shown was at hand to begin to be fulfilled.  The Revelation was as relevant to the seven churches in Asia as it has been for any church since.  There is no 2000 year disconnect for the beginning of it's fulfillment.  The first four seals were opened way back yonder, and the four horsemen have been riding all this time.  Their trails can be traced throughout the annals of Church era history.

For those who may be new to this discussion, this thread is part of A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 3/29/2021 at 4:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I think of the last chapter of The Bible and what we find recorded there, in chapter 22:

 10  And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:  FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

I know, I know.  Did the angel mean this, or did he mean something else?

So if we are to interpret this as 'now' then you have to do the same with the other instances where 'eggus' occurs; Matt 24:33 for example. So where is Jesus? It's been 1988 years. So he is near? Right at the door? According to you those things have been happening. 

No, according to what I have said, the generation living at the time of the event of Christ's "Sign" Appearance (Matt. 24:30) will be the generation for which Christ's Second Advent will be at hand.  None of those of 1900 years ago, or 1400 years ago, of 300 years ago, etc., that experienced what Jesus warned of in the opening of His discourse were a part of the generation of His "Sign" Appearance.  Those who are a part of "This generation" (Matt. 24:34) of which Jesus speaks will have seen some of the activity of the four horsemen, the event of Christ's Sign Appearance, and the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.

For example, if the 6th Seal were opened today, Christ would make His Sign Appearance and the Church would be raptured (Matt. 24:29-51 with Rev. 6:12-7:17).  Diaste, the generation of which we are presently a part would be upon the earth for this event.  PLUS, the generation of which we are presently a part would have seen the results of the activity of the four horsemen up till this day.  PLUS, the generation of which we are presently a part would see the rise of the Antichrist and the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  PLUS, the generation of which we are presently a part would behold Christ's Second Advent as King of kings and Lord of lords.  WHICH MEANS, the generation of which we are presently a part would "not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt. 24:34).  One would not have to be more than a teenager to be a witness of all the foregoing.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/29/2021 at 4:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

In accord with what God's Word bears out and the history of God's World bears out, if any of the above means anything else (than what has been realized), it means this---what the above was written concerning was about to BEGIN for New Testament children of God.  AND IT DID!

Further, what the above was written concerning has not been something that has been fulfilled, but rather, it has been BEING fulfilled, and this will continue to be so, until it is fully fulfilled.

For me, when I began to understand things this way, all the prophetic puzzle pieces began to come together in a remarkable way.  And so far, in my experience of sharing and explaining my understanding on this forum, my understanding has only been further confirmed, IMHO.

It seems odd to me that the prophecies can be split apart willy nilly. Some of it has been happening the rest has not. Five seals and a portion of the Olivet Discourse are not only near but fulfilled in millennia of existing conditions but the rest, not so much. Where is the justification in scripture for this?

The foremost justification is in The Revelation.  There we see the first possibility of what was to be "hereafter" (Rev. 1:19/4:1) with the opening of the first seals, the first four of which (and the anytime possibility of the fifth) dovetails with Jesus' opening warnings (Matt. 24:4-14).  THEN, we see the 6th Seal opened, which dovetails with the day of the event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture (Matt. 24:29-51).  THEN, we see the evidences of Daniel's 70th Week beginning to be fulfilled several months later (as soon as the world's stage is fully reset), in the time frame of the 6th Trumpet, at Revelation 11:1-3ff, the capstone of which will be Christ's Second Advent as King of kings and Lord of lords (Matt. 24:15-28).  Solid.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/30/2021 at 3:36 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/28/2021 at 8:34 PM, not an echo said:

Hey again Diaste, 

At the time I had to leave for my bus route the other day, I didn't have time to really reflect on my reply to you as I would have liked.  You had indicated something with these words---"I try not to assume what another person means until they explain"---that I had aimed to clarify for you, but I failed to.

When I said this...

"And, while you may not like my song, I submit that it is in tune with Scripture---and a lot better tune than some other songs I've heard.  I was thinking of saying a tiny something more, but our Father said enough is enough.  I will wager once more that you know right well what I was thinking..."

I really don't think like that. I was abused in that manner, a person thinking they knew what I meant but never asking, and seemingly not caring either. It's a shameful thing to do to others. So I honestly avoid it, consciously.

I can understand.  I hope you have perceived that.

On 3/30/2021 at 3:36 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

...what I was meaning was just a little humorous something, to the effect that I feel my song is in tune with Scripture---and a lot better tune than some other songs I've heard---even yours!  What's in bold is that "little something more" that I was alluding too.  I said what I said from the perspective of feeling that you no doubt feel the same about your song.

Mine? I don't understand. I thought we were all getting the words from Jesus? 

Diaste, Diaste, Diaste, you've got to know that all I am talking about is our respective interpretations of Scripture.  As a song finds its inspiration in many ways, our interpretations find their inspiration in our understandings of Scripture and what we feel Christ's Spirit reveals to us (Jn. 16:13).  My understanding of Scripture is my song, if you will, and your understanding is your song.  Of course, a difference is that our songs aren't yet set to music, at least, mine isn't.  All I have so far are the lyrics.  But, one of these days!   Hmmm, that's sure gonna be a long song!

On 3/30/2021 at 3:36 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I have always been prayerful about my replies and mindful of the importance of replying with Christian charity (I Cor. 13).  When I add the little emojis, please don't think that I am playing games or anything.  It is just an effort to keep things on a loving family of God level...and I do like humor and to carry on some. 

As I believe I told you once upon a time, one of these days when you're standing by the Crystal River (Rev. 22:1), I'm gonna sneak up behind you and give you a good shove...

Just because a person is unswerving doesn't mean they have neither love nor compassion. And you better push hard, I'm kinda fat!

Hey, I like that first sentence.  If we just keep maintaining love and compassion, the Good Lord will bring us right along to where we all need to be in our understandings---at least as far as He can get us till He calls us home.

And, on your last little revelation, I'll just bide my time (I'll have all eternity ) till you're least expecting it.  I might even motion for Paul to sneak over and help me!  Then, we'll holler, Holy Tsunami 

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/2/2021 at 11:32 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Now, if I said that we (humans) would still be driving gasoline powered automobiles 200 years from now, and it came to pass that we were still driving gasoline powered automobiles 200 years from now, would that make me a prophet, or merely a historian?  I'm trying to think of any historian that has ever given an account of history to come.  I guess it could be said of such a person that he or she would be considered a historical prophet.  But, isn't that kinda what all true prophets are?

When we think of what Jesus prophesied, why should it seem odd that some of what He said would take place had taken place before?  Consider afresh this post of mine from over a year ago...

The question I have posed never seems to be answered. If it was I didn't see it. I'm not saying it's you specifically that didn't answer it, no one has. Here it is again:

If Matt 24:4-8, "“See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains." are the signs of the end, but have not only been happening since the 1st century but also since the distant past some 2-3000 years before Christ, what differentiates Matt 24:4-8 from 4-5000 years of history so that we know it's the lead up to the end and the terminal generation per Matt 24:34, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened"?

If you are saying Matt 24:4-8 is the history of the church from the 1st century to today, what context is used for the same events occurring in the 2000 or 3000 years prior to Jesus of Nazareth? Wars, earthquakes, famine plague and pestilence occurred throughout history long before Jesus. In fact two examples from ancient Egypt emphasize the point: the 10 plagues and the 7 year famine, both well before the Olivet Discourse and both exceedingly brutal. There are many, many such examples of Matt 24:4-8 in ancient times

In my mind then Matt 24:4-8 doesn't stand out as future prophecy at all if it's retroactive to the 1st century. And if we assign it such a length of time them we must assign it a further span of time all the way back to Cain.

I think what's missed is this important feature of Matt 24:4-8

"“There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.""

This idea of various is 'kata' as follows:

kata: down, against, according to

Original Word: κατά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: kata
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ah')
Definition: down, against, according to
Usage: gen: against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of.

HELPS Word-studies

2596 katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" (J. Thayer).

This is far the natural bent of the evil heart of mankind and the common trials of a fallen creation, this is rained down from on high and is a constant strain on the earth. 

In a proper sense down from above referencing the impact on the end point?

This is so far out of the realm of natural disaster and mankind's proclivity for death and destruction I'm dumbfounded you would think otherwise. 

Hello Diaste,

According to what I believe God has spoke to my heart, what mattered most at the time Jesus gave His Olivet Discourse had less to do with how His warnings compared to what had happened in the past and more to do with what would characterize what His disciples and subsequent generations would be seeing.

There was a lull, if you will, in the experience of Jesus' followers concerning what past generations had experienced and what was looming on their horizon.  Kinda like the eye of what might be thought of as a prophetic hurricane, they didn't need to let the relative calmness of the eye they were in fool them.  Quite the similar was going to come to pass again, but, as I have said, with some Christianity-specific elements.

How many times in our efforts to both console and warn others (especially our children), have we reminded them that there will always be both rainy days and sun shiny days?  Then, lo and behold, things get overcast and they wonder why this or that is happening to them.  Sometimes I have to be reminded myself.  Jesus even told His disciples, "see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24:6).

Consider Diaste:  If the A of D had been manifested in 110 A.D. and Christ had come in 117 A.D., we could be sitting at Jesus feet in glory today, still marveling over how spot on He was in what He had warned of in His Olivet Discourse---things that you are presently dismissing over the element of time that has passed.  Said another way, I'm feeling that you are endeavoring to see something through a microscope that you need to be looking at through a telescope.  Better yet, some things are better observed with the naked eye.

On 4/3/2021 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

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It would have been easy for the followers of Christ to hope, or even suppose, that things would be different after Christ's resurrection, and especially after what happened on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  In hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus, in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some Christianity-specific ways.

Think about it---Things could have been such that none would even presume to regard themselves to be some kind of Messiah, or Christ, but many have since that time, and several have in our own generation, like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Father Divine, David Koresh, and others whose names I can't remember. 

Concerning wars, Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that these would, in our generation, be considered something of the long distant past, but it's not quite that way, is it?

Also, modern man (with much pride) could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of the earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.

Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established. Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Isn't that something?

Things could have turned out such that of Jesus Christ, history would bear out that He didn't know what He was talking about.  What do you think?  I think Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  Shouldn't surprise us, He being THE DIVINE CARPENTER!

Early in what we now call the Church Age, our brothers and sisters in Christ might not have made all the connections, but now we have the perspective of retrospect.  As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and some 2000 years of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that Jesus did indeed speak of things very relevant to the Church.  Think about it:  What He said for openers (e.g. Matt. 24:4-11) has fit every century of the Christian era, if not every decade, if not every year.  The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!

Now, after the rapture, I certainly believe that there will be an escalation of things---in the same category of which Jesus spoke---and even to the point of running rampant---but this happens in connection with the sounding of the trumpets.  For example, during that time, deception will run rampant, even to the setting up of the kingdom of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:1-5ff).  Secondly, during that time we have an account of some kind of war, wherein one-third of the population will be killed (Rev. 9:15-18).  There has never been this kind of war.  Thirdly, the catastrophes (and resultant poverty) of that time will be on a scale that seems unimaginable (Rev. 8:6-13).  And fourthly, there will be no limit to the persecution and martyrdom that will take place during that time, for all who will not succumb to the rule of the Antichrist will be subject to death (Rev. 13:11-15ff).  From another angle, for those who can accept that the four horsemen have been riding since early in the Church Era, the tribulation they have already caused is just a precursor to what they and/or their cohorts will effect after the Church is gone.

The way I see it, we have compelling evidence that the first four seals were opened early in the era of the Church (as early as late first century), and represent not future judgments of God that pertain to Daniel's 70th Week (as so commonly interpreted), but present liberties that have been granted to Satan (he would have NONE otherwise!) to ply his craft post-Cross.  I can almost see Satan negotiating with God for these liberties.  I again submit that these seals reveal the spiritual realm activities of Satan---and his henchmen, the four horsemen---to bring about tribulation during the centuries of NT Christianity.  As I see it, the four horsemen have been riding all this time and have left their trails down through the corridors of Church history, even unto our present day.

I'm unmoved. This is just too subjective. We serve a mighty King and it's His word we cling to, not personal belief.

I would just like to proclaim with you that "We serve a mighty King and it's His word we cling to, not personal belief."   Just want you to be assured Diaste, I believe that it is God's Word that must be the basis for all our beliefs.  Further, if you ever find of something that I say that it won't align with God's Word, trashcan it, then clarify for me with His Word where I am mistaken.  And know this, I just love parables or illustrations.  Hey, that's how Jesus got us to see things. 

On 4/3/2021 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

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Before moving on Diaste, as I see it, the thing of forecasting what tomorrow holds is too big for me (other than it won't be any different than what Jesus spoke 2000 years ago).  I could easily imagine the Caesar's thinking that it wouldn't be too long till there wouldn't be any further war, for the empire's subject peoples would eventually realize that it was in their best interest to cease resisting Rome.  Hey, with America's bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the subsequent end of World War II, it could have been logically surmised that the threat of nuclear war would be a deterrent to any further wars.  I mean, why didn't pacifism take?  Well, we know Diaste.  I'm just saying that things could have been a lot different.  I mean, what if atheists had been right, and it was found that we did indeed evolve from lifeless muck?  It could have been that we annihilated ourselves in the 70's---then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Or, it could have been that the aliens that seeded our planet with life way back yonder made the scene at the turn of the century and now we are back and forth with them through worm holes doing space exploration at warp speeds...

It's not convincing. I've read all the novels dealing with the imagination of mankind. They are an escape at best but not serious study nor valid conclusions. We will all see soon enough.

I don't believe I have ever asked you this, but what is it exactly that you are thinking we are all about to see?  Are you thinking that the manifestation of the Antichrist is imminent?

On 4/3/2021 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

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 It's in our face.

Not just yet.

Just a thought Diaste, before I have to close for the afternoon.  I have often wondered why people don't live according to what they profess to believe.  When I think of those who are of the post-trib persuasion, I have often wondered how prepared they are for the 3-1/2 to 7 years of great tribulation that they are seeing as looming on the horizon.  I mean, if I was indeed of this persuasion, I'm thinking that it would be wise to have some practical things in place---like a bunker and foodstuffs for an extended period of time.  I mean, if I lived on the Gulf Coast and the weather man said a major hurricane was coming in, I would be boarding my windows.  Have you made any such preparations?  I'm seriously curious---Not being facetious at all.

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/30/2021 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I believe when you have replied to me in the past with words like, "Except dispensationalism is a farce,"  you were convinced that I was a dispensationalist with some kind of agenda connected thereto.  I had thought that of late you were probably beginning to realize that I'm not a dispensationalist after all.  I guess I was mistaken.  I do understand that dispensationalists are big on the use of the phrase Church Age.  But, does my use of that phrase to describe this period of post-cross history of which we are a part, as it connects with what Jesus said that He was going to build, which was added to on the Day of Pentecost---and continues to be added to---make me a dispensationalist?  What part of what I just said is a farce?

As far as I'm concerned any reference to some change in the way of salvation or approach to God or the existence of Christ and His profound being and character is dispensational at it's core and is incorrect doctrine. When Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures to prove the words and concepts Paul spoke were accurate they were searching the Pentateuch and the prophets.

This means the Gospel is proved by the OT and was always there from the beginning. There is no change, only that which was obscured is now plain as day. In fact most of the NT is made up of quotations from the OT. The most important speeches by Peter have many references to ancient prophets. They all knew. The arrogance of contemporary Christianity won't allow for this truth however.

Still not sure what part it is of something that I have said that you think is a farce.  For me, salvation has always been by grace through faith---even in the days of the Old Testament.  I'm reminded of what Paul said in Romans 9:

 30  What shall we say then?  That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

 31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

 32  Wherefore?  Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.  For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence:  and whosoever believeth ON HIM shall not be ashamed.

Diaste, realizing that I may be missing something in your above post, I believe I'm in comfortable agreement with it.  One thing that I have continued to appreciate about you is what I perceive to be your devotion to Jesus Christ and Scripture.  Now, if I could just get you deprogrammed from all those lingering common pre-trib view dislikes that are still floating around inside your noggin, you might be able to see the true merits of my different pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture understanding and how it indeed harmonizes with Scripture---which is a must.

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:18 AM, Diaste said:

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You know that there was a time in my experience on this forum when I determined to no longer use the word "age" connected with the Church, because of its dispensational connotations---and mostly because of you !!!  Instead, I began to use the word "era" to denote the post-Cross period of history of which we are a part.  For some months, any use of the word "age" on this forum by me has been rare, with qualifications, and only because of its familiarity.  Moreover, the subject of dispensationalism has never succeeded in keeping my interest.  I've already said more about the subject than I intended to.  But, I guess I've said what I've said to ask this:  What terms do you think would be preferable to use when speaking of this post-cross era of which we are a part, as it connects with the institution that Christ said that He was going to build, which was added to on the Day of Pentecost---and continues to be added to?

This would be valid if one assumes Pentecost was the first time the Spirit came upon people. What do you do with the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11? Elijah, Elisha, David, Enoch, Joshua, Moses and others too many to number all had the Spirit of God in and one them. To conclude the Spirit only came to men 50 days later is unbiblical.

I guess I'm kinda dumbfounded, probably getting a little sleepy.  What is it in your reply that connects with what I posted?  Perhaps you were thinking of something else that I have said, but I'm at a loss for what that would be.

Again, "What terms do you think would be preferable to use when speaking of this post-cross era of which we are a part, as it connects with the institution that Christ said that He was going to build, which was added to on the Day of Pentecost---and continues to be added to?"

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo