The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[not an echo]

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 4/7/2021 at 12:45 PM, not an echo said:

Could you give us a clean WLV (WilliamL Version) of it?

That is exactly what I did. Sorry if you didn't find it acceptable.

Don't take me wrong, I'm can still appreciate your work William.

Edited April 9, 2021 by not an echo
Removed L

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste, it's a beautiful spring day out here in my neck of the woods, how about out there in your parts?

It snowed 4" overnight, by 2 pm it was all gone and the roads were dry. Too bad, my Jeep has new rubber and I don't even get to try it out!

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the first sentence of your reply, I'm good with that too.  Concerning the second sentence of your reply, I'm good with that too!  Hey, too for too---or should that be two for two? 

Concerning the next couple of sentences, I'm kinda figuring that that "single bit of cloth" would go into the category of circumstantial evidence.  From my previous post, you already know that I'm all good with circumstantial evidence---if there's enough of it.    I am, however, just a little surprised that you are.  It could be that I misunderstood you a couple of posts back. 

The idea was a single bit of evidence no matter how small may fit the overall picture and change the conclusion. The was case old and cold and the discovery matched other evidence. This was tangible evidence, not a bunch of gossip and incorrect assumptions like in the Scott Peterson case. That poor guy. Maybe he was a little cold, doesn't make him a murderer. Lets not get on this subject... 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the rest of your reply, I remain curious concerning how you make the fit complete of Joel 1 with Revelation 8.  I'm wondering what it would be like for us if we sit down over a cup of coffee and a scenery puzzle.  I'm thinking that I might have to keep an eye on you, lest you try to make a piece go where it doesn't belong.  But, I would be nice, I promise.

I have posted this on a few occasions in other topics but I don't remember where so here goes:

Joel 1

"Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD;

the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.

[This is the A of D at the midpoint.]

The field is ruined; the land mourns.

For the grain is destroyed, the new wine is dried up, and the oil fails.

Be dismayed, O farmers, wail, O vinedressers, over the wheat and barley, because the harvest of the field has perished.

The grapevine is dried up, and the fig tree is withered; the pomegranate, palm, and apple—all the trees of the orchard—are withered."

[From Joel 1 above we see the harvest is gone and the trees have been affected.]

Rev 8

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

[All the food grains: oats, wheat, barley, rice, even corn are grasses. At the 1^st trump they are all gone, just like Joel 1.]

Joel 1

Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God.

[Joel again says the A of D has happened, just as Daniel spoke about it.]

Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty. Has not the food been cut off before our very eyes—joy and gladness from the house of our God?

[Now Joel says the Day of the Lord is near and the food is already gone, while seeming to reference the A of D again.]

 

To You, O LORD, I call, for fire has consumed the open pastures and flames have scorched all the trees of the field. Even the beasts of the field pant for You, for the streams of water have dried up, and fire has consumed the open pastures.

[Here Joel is telling us the pastures are gone, and the water. Twice Joel says 'fire has consumed the open pastures' just in two verses. There is little doubt about the timing of this as Joel repeatedly speaks to the A of D as having occurred and the yet to come, but near, Day of the Lord.]

Rev 8

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

[I don’t think the bold part above is similar to Joel 1, it’s exactly what Joel is saying more than once in the 1^st chapter; "...fire has consumed the open pastures..."]

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

[This isn't as perfect a fit for Joel 1, "...the streams of water have dried up..." but an association can be made as the water is no longer life giving, effectively 'dried up'. There is little doubt this is the the end of the age around the time of the A of D but before the Day of the Lord; Joel plainly says exactly that. He also says all the grain is destroyed, there is no harvest of wheat and barley, and the pastures have been consumed by fire. What other possible event could he be referencing that is associated with the end of the age and the Day of the Lord?

So this gives us all the timing we need and puts things in order. The 1st trump, and possibly the 3rd, has sounded by the midpoint and before the day of the Lord. Since this is undeniable it means the trumps are sounding in conjunction with the seals opening. It's clear at this point in Joel's prophecy we are at the midpoint and the 3rd seal is opened and the 1st trump has sounded.

Since the 1st trump destroys the food and the 3rd seal is either economic control or catastrophic scarcity, it's safe to conclude the destruction of the harvest is the reason for a loaf of bread costing a day's wage. Joel lays out the order and timing quite nicely, don't you agree? No, you probably won't as this changes everything for you.

So as I have said many times; the seals and trumps occur in a successive concurrence culminating in the confluence of the 6th seal and 7th trump. {Well, that's the first time I said it like that :)} Joel supports this with the prophecy of the 1st trump already sounded at the time of the A of D and before the Day of the Lord.]

[Diaste]

On 4/9/2021 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Not sure if I'm catching how your question relates to the above portion of my post.  But, if I'm reading you right, an example of what you are alluding to may have to do with my thoughts concerning the first four trumpets, the sphere shape of the earth, and the possible destruction of what is in our Western Hemisphere.

This is probably for another time and place but how does this work for Rev 1?

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

All the tribes of the earth? Aren't you saying some have been destroyed and only a small portion of the earth is populated? I get the hemisphere argument but I don't see where half the earth is depopulated in an entire hemisphere.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:10 PM, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, I could say the same thing about your post-trib persuasion, but what kind of weight would that kind of statement carry?  Aw, shucks, I get it, you're just being humorous!

The problem is this:

Matt 24

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thess 2

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Both of these passages have clear timing.

After the GT and after the A of D. 

None of the pretrib proofs of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4 and 1 Thess 5.

1 Thess 4 is the order of the resurrection but no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age.

1 Thess 5 speaks to the manner in which the day will come upon believers and unbelievers but again there is no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age.

1 Cor 15 speaks to the nature of the resurrection and it's effects on those caught up but there is no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age.

All the cited passages speak to the same event. Two clearly provide timing and three do not. Yet instead of just accepting the timing as Jesus said pretrib must invent timing or another catching up to satisfy the needs of the doctrine.

Among other misapplications of scripture pretrib creates a scenario ignorant of all the evidence based on one verse; "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

While this is truth doctrinal adultery and scriptural infidelity lead to a false conclusion that the 70th week equals wrath and therefore, pretrib. 

I get that you are not relying on this shameless manipulation but you still have zero evidence of timing for pretrib; and that in the face of plainly written timing.

Please, please provide a single pretrib timing proof written as concise and open as Jesus did: [edited for brevity to emphasize order and timing]

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days 

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and

then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,

Interesting and often missed is this:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

Now why would the days of GT have to shortened for the elect when the elect won't be in the GT? Would you say it's the 'tribulation saints'? But pretrib holds this to be wrath of God and so no saint or believer in Jesus can be in the wrath of God. 

 

[Diaste]

On 4/6/2021 at 11:24 PM, not an echo said:

First of all, I believe you are trying to fit some of Joel's prophetic puzzle pieces into a place where they do not go.  There may be some color similarities, but it takes more than that for a puzzle to come together correctly.  The cause of the locust destruction spoken of in Joel is not the same as the cause of the destruction spoken of in The Revelation.  Whether literal locusts or an army, nothing of this sort is spoken of in connection with the trumpets of The Revelation until the 5th Trumpet, and then, it has nothing to do with the flora of the earth.  Quite to the contrary, "it was commanded them (the locusts) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;  but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

Yes. But it's Joel 1 that makes the associations with the a of d, the day of the Lord, and the 1st trump regardless of the references to locusts in 1:4, which may be a reference to spiritual decay and not actual locusts. Don't let a single verse cloud the body of evidence contained in the prophecy.

On 4/6/2021 at 11:24 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the last half of your reply, my first thought I will borrow from you:  The Revelation "disappoints here."  If you are allowing that the 6th Seal is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), where do you locate Christ's Second Coming in a post-trib view?  According to my understanding of what you believe, the "great sound of a trumpet" in Matthew 24:31 would have to be the 7th Trumpet.  But, if this happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, what about the five month period (Rev. 9:5, 10) where the locusts of the 5th Trumpet are not allowed to hurt those with "the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4), meaning those sealed with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:3)?  You already have a conglomeration Diaste, and we haven't even got to the 7th Seal.  I just can't get the puzzle pieces to come together for me in this way, not even if I allow what I feel to be the forcing of a piece.  And, there's a lot more pieces that these.

I never said it occurs with the opening of the 6th seal, I said it occurs in conjunction and what I mean by that is the timing and order. It's not concurrent. That would be ridiculous as the signs happen before the gathering. 

A strict chronology of Revelation is impossible. I'm not saying this is what you are doing but it appears some latent tendency exists. 

I don't in anyway associate the visions of Rev 7 with the opening of the 6th seal as if those events were born of that opening. The language doesn't lead to chronology e.g.:

John says in Rev 6:1 "Then I watched..." So all of chapter 6 is what he saw. Then John says, "After this I saw..." in 7:1. So after he was done done watching in ch.6 he now saw something after the vision in ch.6. John doesn't associate the vision in ch. 7 as flowing from 6:12-17. John isn't saying "And when..." like in chapter 6 when as he saw a seal opened something happened. 

There isn't any timing or order for either the sealing or the great multitude in ch. 7 in relation to other events and not even to the two events depicted in ch. 7. We are seeing the fact of what will happen not the when. So in answer the sealing would have to happen prior to the 5th trump as you pointed out, and the great multitude in heaven would only appear after the 7th trump sounded, after but near to the 6th seal. 

 

On 4/6/2021 at 11:24 PM, not an echo said:

But, if this is so, verse 28 does not fit.  Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "nigh." 

This is an error in comprehension. What did Luke say exactly?

"When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

You associated this verse with v 27. Verse 27 reads:

"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory"

You conclude 'these things' must only mean 'they will see'? Or is it Jesus coming in power along with 'they will see' that's the totality of 'these things'? Are we to ignore all the other things Jesus spoke of that will come to pass and that we will see?

And why did you pick on Luke?

"So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" Matt 24

"So also, when you see these things happening, know that He is near,f right at the door. 30Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." Mark 13

No. In Luke Jesus is referring to the whole of the Olivet discourse as is confirmed by Matt and Mark.

On 4/6/2021 at 11:24 PM, not an echo said:

And, according to The Key, we don't have any evidence of the A of D or the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week until Revelation 11:1-3.  Compare Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20, and II Thessalonians 2:3-4.

Unless the chronology is stated Revelation is not chronological. Because an event is depicted in later chapters does not mean that's the timing of the condition or event. You like to think it is, as do many others; it's just not the case. You would of course agree the timing for Rev 12:1-5 is the past and not after 6 seals have opened and 6 trumps sounded. 

Novels are all written this way. A main event is foreshadowed, then ensuing chapters follow the characters in a steady march to the main event, all in the same time on the continuum.  Later the story is advanced and the process begins again.

Revelation is written like this. A major outline is presented and the narrative regresses to provide details of characters and events in the previous outline. Even knowing this it's not easy to assay. If we don't proof text, add, assume and remain precise in language and just shut up and listen, it's much easier.

[not an echo]

On 4/9/2021 at 2:59 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/8/2021 at 12:42 PM, not an echo said:

Sounds good.   I would only add that in my personal journey of seeking the Lord and learning the truths of His Word, I discovered some things that I had been raised to believe that I didn't feel were in complete harmony with all of Scripture.  Like the illustration of prophetic puzzle pieces that I sometimes use, when I would discover what seemed to be other pieces that factored in, or other arrangements (if you will) that fit better, my heart would burn within me (Lk. 24:32).  This has happened a lot with me.  Well now, these decades later, I've arrived at an understanding that harmonizes (for me) in such a way, that I feel comfortable sharing it with the rest of the family of God---with this disclaimer:  I may be wrong.  I don't think I am, but I may be.  This I know:  What I am understanding is based on Scripture.  Rightly divided, or wrongly, you and everyone else will come to your own conclusion(s) on that.  I would only ask that you (and all) consider.  And, maybe there is yet even a better understanding that we can all come to.

I would like to say that I have a lot of other deeply held convictions, borne out of my personal seeking of the leadership of Christ's Spirit (Jn. 16:13) and study of Scripture (II Tim. 2:15; 3:16-17).  My prayer is continually like unto David's (Psa. 119:18).  Of course, whereas I share a lot of other beliefs with others in our family of God (even you Diaste), I am not a carbon copy of any one or group or camp on the face of this earth.  In accord with my avatar, I am not an echo.  Not sure if you have ever read my testimony, but if it matters to you what I believe about other things, I would like to encourage you to read it.  I would certainly like to read yours.  Personally, I would like to read the testimony of anyone who interacts with me on this forum.  A lot matters besides what we may be persuaded of concerning these last days.  My testimony is in the testimony section of this forum.  Here's the link...

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/)

Well there are some things I have witnessed I would very much like to relate. However that is not part of the plan at this time. As far as testimony I like to think we testify daily, a dynamic growth on straight path, to who we interact with. Hopefully the witness is approved by our Father as He is the just Judge.

Hello Diaste,

I think of my life Scripture and would encourage you with it, from Proverbs 3:

 5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;  and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 6  In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

[not an echo]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2021 at 2:18 AM, not an echo said:

Your take on what is required to be pre-trib does not reflect any mentality that I have.  First of all, the thing of being subject to God's wrath is what non-believers will face, whether Jew or Gentile.  Those who have been saved are not destined to be subjects of God's wrath, again, whether Jew or Gentile.

I agree.

Quote

According to what Scripture bears out, the purpose of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy is spelled out in Daniel 9:24.  There, Daniel writes this that was told to him:

 24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

I agree here as well.

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Further, a child of God post-Cross is not more of a child of God than a child of God pre-cross.  In the OT days, there were both Jews and Gentiles that were children of God, and now, in these NT days, there are both Jews and Gentiles that are children of God.  To me, it is quite apparent that from the beginning, God's desire has been to redeem humanity period, and His plan for this redemption has always revolved around the Promised Seed (Gen. 3:15), the Second Adam (I Cor. 15:21-22, 45), God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ (Col. 1:15, 2:9;  II Cor. 5:19).  If God had not repeatedly intervened in the affairs of corrupted fallen humanity, there would have come a time when none would have any longer found grace in His eyes, and there would have ceased to be a line by which the Promised Seed could come.  It just bespeaks the extent of our corrupted fallen condition, whatever our race or nationality.

Agreed.

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

God intervened in the days of Noah and then He intervened at the Tower of Babel.  I would suggest that in the days of Abraham, things were again not far removed from what they were in the days of Noah.  Even Abraham's people were idolaters, but not Abraham.  Because of Abraham's devotion to God, God determined to make a covenant with him, that through his seed, all nations of the earth might yet be blessed.  By God's continued interventions, and on account of His covenant promise to Abraham, the Israelite Nation eventually came into being, and ultimately, the Promised Seed was born into the world.  Again, I would suggest that this would have never happened if God had not continued to intervene.  Interestingly, the Israelite Nation didn't get it, God's chosen Nation didn't get it, and it ended up a party to the crucifixion of the Promised Seed. 

Yes. Interesting, isn't it?

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

  God's gonna wrap all of this up one of these days.  And, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, young or old, red or yellow, black or white, the important thing is for one to know that he or she is saved.  And be it known, all who are saved are God's children, loved equally by God, and there's not gonna be any segregation in Heaven.

Amen.

Quote

 You have repeatedly mentioned that those of the common pre-trib position see all of Daniel's 70th Week as being the wrath of God.  While I believe it is apparent that God's wrath will be poured in that time, that is different than throughout that time.  Moreover, whatever the case, God is quite able to protect the saved in the midst of whatever is befalling the unsaved.  And, whatever befalls the unsaved, God's desire would be that it would bring them to repentance, but, we see that it won't, even during the pouring out of the vials (Rev. 16:9-11).  Again, it just bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.

This is good as it's exactly what's written. Now is someone could just prove pretrib from what's written....

I'm thankful that we are in agreement on these things that hold a lot of meaning for the both of us...

[not an echo]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

According to my interpretation of Scripture and what history bears out, 69 weeks of this prophecy have been fulfilled.  The last, or 70th Week is yet to be fulfilled.  But, the purpose of this last week is not to subject the saved of the Israelite nation to God's punishment or wrath.  No, the purpose of this last week is to fulfill to completion what the Seventy Weeks prophecy was all about in the first place---again, what is spelled out in Daniel 9:24.

Well....I would say  other evidence concerning the last week is not being considered in this conclusion.  I agree to the stated purpose of the last week [it's clearly written  so to deny it is foolish] but what must be considered is what is written about the last week in Daniel, Joel, the Gospels, some of the Epistles, and Revelation. These all lend clarity to the final 7 years.

I'll argue from Daniel alone there is a change because of the Messiah and the 70th week no longer belongs to the Jews based on their failure proven by the death of Jesus. If the Jews truly had the full 70 weeks then what was Messiah doing there before the 70 weeks was competed? I imagine He was there so the Jews could anoint the Most Holy. Certainly the Most Holy didn't refer to either the Temple or the inner chamber of the Temple, nor the gold and copper altars.

But they didn't anoint, they sacrificed. The Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week and what did the Jews do? Continue the pursuit of the commission? No. They went right back to the religious hypocrisy characteristic of every organized man made construct. Even as presented with the guidelines of the commission they failed long before the 69th week arrived. 

 But Daniel proceeds to tell us a 7 year covenant will be confirmed and that covenant will be broken in the middle of the last week, putting an end to Temple liturgy. From at least the midpoint of the last week the Jews no longer control their destiny and will not be fulfilling the commission of Dan 9:24-26 per Rev 12 and 13.

And the idea that the Jews still have a shot at the fulfilling of the commission in a long awaited last week of man's governance is an argument from silence. It is a belief and not evidence based. Because the source material does not prohibit the idea of the last chance doctrine does not confirm this is the case. It's a negative evidence proof which is no proof at all. 

The positive evidence of Dan 9:26-27 points to a very different circumstance and outcome. That, and the reality of at least the last half of the week where the beast rules absolutely, confirmed by multiple prophets over 2000 years or longer; completing or even furthering the commission is impossible.

I'm not entirely certain of where all you are coming from here, but I will clarify a little concerning my understanding.

First of all, the "Seventy weeks are determined" (Dan. 9:24) and the seventy weeks will be fulfilled upon Daniel's people and upon his holy city, in strict accord with what he was told (i.e., "upon thy people and thy holy city"/Dan. 9:24).  Nothing happened contrary to the prophecy, and nothing is going to happen contrary to the prophecy.  Whatever came or comes to pass is all factored in. 

If I am picking up on your concern, it is a non for me, as everything will come together with the establishment of Christ's Millennial Kingdom, which is what the "bring in" of Daniel 9:24 points to.  The day of Christ's Second Advent marks the end day of Daniel's 70th Week, whereupon the "bring in" will begin.  It is an amazing prophecy...

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Now, it is no longer by the Israelite Nation, but by the Christian Church (ALL who are saved) that God's covenant promise to Abraham is carried forth.  It is the Christian Church that is the herald of this good news, the message of the Gospel.  

I know you say you aren't dispensationalist or supersessionist but you are leaning right up against it here. The difficult thing here is defining the terms Israel and church. I don't think many want to know. Paul gives the idea of Israel a thorough examination in the Epistles and it's not what contemporary Christianity thinks it is.

A curious thing for me is that it seems you kinda hold me in contempt at my every mention of the Church.  Wish I understood a little more of what the undercurrent is all about.  Is there something that I have said (me personally) that is a flag for you, or is it something that I haven't said?  I'm kinda feeling that we are probably more in agreement than we are otherwise, but there is still something in the mix that I haven't quite picked up on.  Know this---I embrace every Word of God on the subject...

[not an echo]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

 You have repeatedly mentioned that those of the common pre-trib position see all of Daniel's 70th Week as being the wrath of God.  While I believe it is apparent that God's wrath will be poured in that time, that is different than throughout that time.  Moreover, whatever the case, God is quite able to protect the saved in the midst of whatever is befalling the unsaved.  And, whatever befalls the unsaved, God's desire would be that it would bring them to repentance, but, we see that it won't, even during the pouring out of the vials (Rev. 16:9-11).  Again, it just bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.

This is good as it's exactly what's written. Now is someone could just prove pretrib from what's written....

Concerning your last sentence Diaste, we all know that such a thing is a pretty tall order.  Why?  It has a lot to do with Satan and faith.  How are you going to prove to the atheist that God exists?  I venture that we both know enough about the atheist's position and ours that we could argue the subject either way.  Same way with OSAS.  Hey, we both were steeped in the common pre-trib view, and neither of us are now.  But, you (I'm betting), or I, know enough about it all to make a pretty good argument for either or any position.  Notwithstanding, with any of the foregoing (and there is a looong list of other subjects), one way is truth, and the other way is not.

I think of Eve in the Garden of Eden, before the fall.  She knew God's Word on it, and she got the serpent's word on it.  And you know, she put what the serpent had to say on the same level with what God said---and then gave what the serpent said the nod.  Amazing, isn't it?  And now, we are corrupted fallen creatures on account of all that and in dire need of what our Creator did for us through Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary.  I'm sure thankful that He is love (I Jn. 4:8, 16).  So much more could be said.  There is no real good stopping place.  

I think of what is genuine and what is counterfeit.  Sometimes the genuine may be worn out and tattered, while the counterfeit is immaculate.  And, it may be vice versa.  And then, it may be that something is counterfeit, but quite clever.  When it comes to truth and falsehood and Satan, it shouldn't surprise us that things sometimes seem to be on a teeter.  In other words, is it this way or that???

So, having said these things, let me say that what I am understanding about the timing of the rapture is not without its difficulties.  But, what I am understanding about the timing of the rapture sure does more for my understanding of the whole of Holy Writ than anything I have found that the so-called scholars have come up with---or anyone else.  And, I maybe wrong, but I'm still teachable, still loving the study, still listening for the trumpet sound, and like Paul, still "know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day" (II Tim. 1:12).

Finally (for this post), and IMHO, I haven't yet discovered anything or been shown anything that makes for much of a Scriptural argument against what I have come to understand.  I'm not saying this in a prideful way.  Really, my statement is just reflective of the long seasoning that my understanding was subjected to before I made it known.  Moreover, I've been harder on me than anyone else has.  As a humble and sincere brother in Christ, I have merely desired to share what I have come to understand with others in the family of God for their own consideration.  Also, I'll happily change anything about my understanding that won't align with the simplicity of God's Word.

In an effort to keep my thread on track, I think this might be a good place to encourage you to look again at the OP of this thread and the OP's of my master thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited April 17, 2021 by not an echo
add link