The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

[not an echo]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:27 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, not an echo said:

 

Concerning the last sentence of your second paragraph, I'm not sure I know what you are getting at here.  Or maybe, it is just that I did not realize you were believing this way.  The way I see the prophetic puzzle pieces coming together, it is the "abomination of desolation" Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 that is being worshiped in "the temple of God" as early as Revelation 11:1.  Also known as "the man of sin" and "son of perdition" that Paul writes of in II Thessalonians 2, concerning which he writes this...

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he AS GOD sitteth in THE TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself THAT HE IS GOD.

Concerning your last paragraph, it seems that the whole foundation of your position here has been that the horse here is white.  I'm thinking, "Can you see any reason why the spirit of the Antichrist would like to be depicted as being a rider on a white horse?"  I can, especially in light of what Paul said in II Corinthians 11...

...

My first thought after I pasted and highlighted the above was that it wouldn't matter to me if the horseman of the 1st Seal was depicted as riding a horse of LIGHT, I still wouldn't be able to see the rider like you are.  It is out there to me to see this as being Christ's Church sent out with the Gospel.  Riding on a "horse"?  With a "bow"?  Referred to by the pronoun "he"?  Already with "a crown"?  Going forth "conquering, and to conquer"?  The Church?  Supporting Scripture???

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and every other time to represent righteousness or pureness of Godliness. Can you imagine that out of 17 God would use white once for something evil? I can't imagine such a thing. The color of the horse must represent righteousness. The ONLY entity on earth around 32 AD was he infant church. They were the ONLY light (being born again beings) in a very dark world. That alone tells us it is the church. 

Then the conquering or overcoming: the world was and still is possessed by Satan and his principalities. Any time the gospel was taken to a new place, the spiritual forces possessing that area had to be conquered or overcome. 

I have no revelation on the bow. However, I doubt very seriously it was a ribbon type of bow as Strong's concordance has it. How could toxon, from where we get toxic mean a fabric ribbon?  The crown is the type of crown given at the games AFTER someone has won - a winner's crown.  God knows the church will win, so the church has the crown from the start.

By the way, I suspect all four horses are not real horses but are only symbolic of other things.

Still under "by the way," I have written many times by now that OF COURSE if the Beast was allowed to choose his color he would choose white - but this is GOD'S book and the Beast is not going to get to choose his color. God shows us the color he chose for the beast: "fiery red!"

Concerning your opening paragraph, my first thought is that "No, God would not have used white once for something evil.  But, Satan certainly would!"  In my reply that you quoted of me above, I had shown the Scripture from II Corinthians 11.  It reads thus...

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.

15 Therefore IT IS NO GREAT THING if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I don't know why you removed this from my quote.  But, iamlamad, how often is "light" used in Scripture, and when does it ever denote something evil?  Yet, Satan transforms himself "into an angel of light."  If it is "no great thing" for Satan's ministers to be "transformed as the ministers of righteousness,"  why would we think it would be a great thing for "that spirit of antichrist" (I Jn. 4:3) to be depicted as riding a white horse?

Moreover, thinking as I do that the rider of the first seal represents Satan's scheme to conquer truth by deceivers and false Christs, how better to do this than from behind a clerical collar, robed in long flowing white and standing behind a podium or the pulpit of a white steepled building?  Maybe even being chauffeured around in a white limousine or having a private jet all glistering white?  What did Jesus say?  "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing (white), but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15).  I'm about to get started...

[not an echo]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:36 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the last sentence of your second paragraph, I'm not sure I know what you are getting at here.  Or maybe, it is just that I did not realize you were believing this way.  The way I see the prophetic puzzle pieces coming together, it is the "abomination of desolation" Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 that is being worshiped in "the temple of God" as early as Revelation 11:1.  Also known as "the man of sin" and "son of perdition" that Paul writes of in II Thessalonians 2, concerning which he writes this...

You mentioned 11:1. In the second verse we find the 42 month countdown (the first such countdown in Revelation) for the city to be trampled of Gentiles.

I asked God about that. I did not hear Him speak, but He answered. That is the Man of sin moving to Jerusalem with His Gentile army. After all, in just a few days he will enter the temple in Jerusalem, and declare He is the God of the Jews! He must first ARRIVE in Jerusalem to enter the temple there. The two witnesses show up then because he - the man of sin - just showed up. 

I cannot prove this with scripture, but then, no one can prove otherwise either. It made sense to me that the man of sin must be in Jerusalem to enter the temple there. After the abomination he and the False Prophet will make Jerusalem their headquarters city to deceive the entire world.

I believe the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies and declares he is God.

In my reply above, I said, "Concerning the last sentence of your second paragraph, I'm not sure I know what you are getting at here.  Or maybe, it is just that I did not realize you were believing this way."  What you had said was this:  "Jesus said that there would come the abomination of Desolation. John did NOT see it or write OF it, but John shows us those in Judea fleeing because they saw it (12:6)" (caps & underlining mine).

Did you word this as you aimed to?

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:52 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/26/2022 at 3:05 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your second paragraph, it's hard impossible for me to see Jesus as "NOT" being "worthy" in any kind of way, even pre-resurrection.  Moreover, I submit that John would have had the same feelings, even much more so.  Interestingly, it was because Jesus Christ was worthy that death could not hold Him.

Concerning your last paragraph, the word "hereafter" in 4:1 cannot be lost sight of in connection with any of the seals.  Even if it is as you believe that 5:1-4 is pre-resurrection, you acknowledge that 5:5 is not.  Further, it seems that you are seeing 5:5 and beyond as being a "32 AD" (albeit, post-resurrection) vision John was seeing as well.  For me, your belief kinda begs this question:  When during this event would you say John is again seeing things in real time?

It is not being unworthy is any other way but unworthy to take the book and open the seals UNTIL after He rose from the dead. My guess is, that is written on the outside of the book. 

 

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

We have to believe what is written. Jesus did not just disappear during this search. He had to be SOMEWHERE. I think from the context that He was at that time UNDER the earth, but not yet risen from the dead.

For me, to accept your position and logic would involve me having to accept things that I find to be in conflict with Scripture.  You maintain contrary to the "hereafter" of 4:1, not only concerning Jesus' resurrection, but concerning the opening of over half of the seals of the book God is holding in His hand.  You maintain your theory that God at first showed John a pre-resurrection scenario of the throne room in Heaven, but this would not change what John already knew concerning Christ's resurrection.  John would not have been able to help what he had known for the past 60 some odd years, and he had just seen and received instructions from the risen Christ (1:10-3:22)!  I mean, this is in our face, iamlamad.  Furthermore, if the first four seals had been opened in "32 AD" as you surmise, these would have then been in the category of "the things which are" (1:19), not "the things which shall be hereafter" (1:19/4:1).

Moreover, John used the same Greek word (oudeís / G3762) from which "no man" is translated several times in The Revelation.  Consider from Revelation 7...

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Should we take this "no man" to include Christ?

Or, from Revelation 14...

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Should we take this "no man" to include Christ?

Or, from Revelation 15...

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Should we take this "no man" to include Christ?

It seems that John and others were used to using the same word for what was a common understanding.  Consider from I John 4...

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us.

Should we take this "No man" to include Christ?  And, there are many more examples.  But, I don't have much more time.

For me, the simplest way to understand the event that John was invited to take part in is to simply understand it according to what the normal understanding would have been.  I'm at a loss for why any other explanation would be sought.  But, that's me...

[not an echo]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:52 PM, iamlamad said:

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and has redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

According to Paul, our salvation was not complete until Jesus rose from the dead. He had to die for our sins, but had to rise for the saints to rise. Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, we are still in our sins.  I think the scripture is clear that after He rose, he then became the "Redeemer" that the Old Testament called Him several times. HOW then did He become worthy? He died and then He rose from the dead.

Just wanted to quickly point out that I am not in disagreement with what you point out concerning what it took for our salvation to be complete.  But, this is a different matter than the event that John was invited to take part in in Revelation 4-5.  Again, Christ was already worthy---that is the reason death could not hold Him.  What He did for our salvation was as good as a done deal before God spoke this world into existence (Eph. 1:3-4; Heb. 4:3; I Pet. 1:18-20; and Rev. 13:8b).

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

In my reply above, I said, "Concerning the last sentence of your second paragraph, I'm not sure I know what you are getting at here.  Or maybe, it is just that I did not realize you were believing this way."  What you had said was this:  "Jesus said that there would come the abomination of Desolation. John did NOT see it or write OF it, but John shows us those in Judea fleeing because they saw it (12:6)" (caps & underlining mine).

Did you word this as you aimed to?

Yes.

Ma. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

God did not show John in the vision verse 15 coming to pass, but John did see the start of the fleeing.

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Since Jesus told the people of Judea that there will not be a second to waste, no time to hurry home to get a coat, I suspect 12:6  is only seconds after they saw the abomination.

Jesus told me that He "marked" the midpoint with a marker, and used the same marker for the start and ending of the week. Therefore, if we back up from 12:6 looking for a marker used previously and later in the book, we find the 7th trumpet. I believe that 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

Therefore, the midpoint or division point of the 70th week will be marked by the 7th trumpet. The 7th seal opens the week, and the 7th vial ends the week.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just wanted to quickly point out that I am not in disagreement with what you point out concerning what it took for our salvation to be complete.  But, this is a different matter than the event that John was invited to take part in in Revelation 4-5.  Again, Christ was already worthy---that is the reason death could not hold Him.  What He did for our salvation was as good as a done deal before God spoke this world into existence (Eph. 1:3-4; Heb. 4:3; I Pet. 1:18-20; and Rev. 13:8b).

Be more specific: "worthy" for what? Perhaps everything EXCEPT to take the book.  John did not tell us, but can you IMAGINE that written on the outside of the book, was the instructions as to WHO could take the book and open the seals?

I am convinced this book is the lease document given to Adam. I believe it includes the entire 70th week written inside. Perhaps it was created after Adam sinned. Because Satan is allowed to try and stop the advance of the gospel, using wars, famines, pestilences (Death) and wild beasts, I am convinced Satan demanded, as god of the planet, that the book be sealed, and some of those seals would allow Him to try and defeat the church. 

Without a doubt, Satan believed if he could kill the Messiah and take him to hades, he could never escape, the seals could never be opened, the trumpets could never sound, so he would remain the god of the planet forever. I suspect Satan demanded that the Messiah could only be worthy of taking the book and opening the seals IF He could rise from the dead and escape out of haded. Satan thought such a thing would be impossible.

John did not tell us anything about the book except that it was sealed and only a MAN could be worthy: God the Father could not open it, nor could the Holy Spirit - it had to be a man. Further, it had to be a man who "prevailed" to open it.

God left it up to us to "connect the dots." When we put the entire picture together, every piece fits perfectly: Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father (there are over a dozen verses putting Him there), Jesus was not found in a diligent search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, and the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room, but TIME PASSED.

Jesus was then found worthy to take the book and open the seals, so the next thing John saw was Jesus ascending back into the throne room, and immediately sending the Holy Spirit down. All this is showing us pictures for our mind to get a point across. It was God introducing John to the sealed book, but starting the vision around 60 years into John's past, because Jesus took the book and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended - around 32 AD. John saw this perhaps around 95 AD. 

People can (and have) come up with many other theories as to why Jesus was not seen, because they cannot believe God would show John something from history. Yet, Jesus said to me, "this was a 'history lesson' for John. He said it on purpose so I could begin thinking about history.

There is not one doubt in my mind God showed John a time in the vision while Christ was on the earth and under the earth, up to the point He rose from the dead, spoke to Mary, then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

For me, to accept your position and logic would involve me having to accept things that I find to be in conflict with Scripture.  You maintain contrary to the "hereafter" of 4:1, not only concerning Jesus' resurrection, but concerning the opening of over half of the seals of the book God is holding in His hand.  You maintain your theory that God at first showed John a pre-resurrection scenario of the throne room in Heaven, but this would not change what John already knew concerning Christ's resurrection.  John would not have been able to help what he had known for the past 60 some odd years, and he had just seen and received instructions from the risen Christ (1:10-3:22)!  I mean, this is in our face, iamlamad.  Furthermore, if the first four seals had been opened in "32 AD" as you surmise, these would have then been in the category of "the things which are" (1:19), not "the things which shall be hereafter" (1:19/4:1).

Moreover, John used the same Greek word (oudeís / G3762) from which "no man" is translated several times in The Revelation.  Consider from Revelation 7...

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Should we take this "no man" to include Christ?

Or, from Revelation 14...

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Should we take this "no man" to include Christ?

Or, from Revelation 15...

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Should we take this "no man" to include Christ?

It seems that John and others were used to using the same word for what was a common understanding.  Consider from I John 4...

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us.

Should we take this "No man" to include Christ?  And, there are many more examples.  But, I don't have much more time.

For me, the simplest way to understand the event that John was invited to take part in is to simply understand it according to what the normal understanding would have been.  I'm at a loss for why any other explanation would be sought.  But, that's me...

"no man" tells us that the angel was looking for a man, meaning, God could not open this sealed book LEGALLY. (God is a very legal God, doing everything He does legally.

In this case, OF COURSE it could include Christ, for I am convinced it was HE that created this book with seven seals. He was the one who wrote the instructions on the book that NO ONE BUT HE - the One who sealed it - could be worthy to open the book. But first HE had to become a man, die, and rise from the dead. Only then could He become worthy to open the seals that He had previous fixed on the book.

Verse 8: no man was able to enter the temple.  I suspect GOD was in the temple, including the second person of the trinity, Jesus Christ. After all, He went to be at the right hand of the Father.  In this case "man" means man, not the GOD-man.

Verse 12: no man has seen God. Of course this did not include the GOD-man, for He was WITH God before He became a man. And He went back to heaven to take HIs place at the right hand of the Father.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Did God show John events in his future? Certainly He did. So God fulfilled this verse and did not go against it.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I believe God meant the things John had JUST seen in this vision. Then the things that are, such as the 7 existing churches, and then the things that would come in the future. Did John do this? Certainly he did. Many people mentally insert an ONLY in this verse, as if God was not allowed to include any history. It is not there.

 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Did God show John things that were "hereafter?" Certainly He did. Again people mentally insert an ONLY here and they IMAGINE God said He would show John ONLY things hereafter. God did not include "only." If God had shown John a few events of the future, and then filled the rest of the vision up with recipes for manna, God would not have lied. The truth is, God never said He could not include events of the past. 

Without a doubt, in chapter 12, God included something from the far far far distant past, perhaps before Adam was created: Satan being cast out of heaven and taking 1/3 of the angels with him. That was ancient history to John. 

Therefore I find NO CONFLICTS with scripture. Anyway, Jesus would not contradict Himself - either in the vision or what He said to me.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your comments above, my mind went to what I wrote in the opening post of my thread about this rider.  Consider...

====================

"From Revelation 6:

7 And when He had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And, what was the fourth category of things that Jesus warned His disciples of when He spoke to them on the Mount of Olives?  Consider from Matthew 24:

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

It is clear that what Jesus here says concerns the persecution and martyrdom His followers were going to face.  He had just warned about "wars and rumours of wars," and this warning parallels with the 2nd Seal and the activity of the rider on the red horse.  But, what He said about wars has to do with people killing one another.  What He is now talking about is a little different.  Martyrdom is about people killing others, and more particularly, over their faith.  Paralleling this, the 4th Seal is about the killing or martyrdom of Christians.  What John here recorded concerning the various means employed for killing would do for a brief summary of what Old Testament Saints faced for their faith (see Heb. 11:32-38).  And, such has been the experience of many in our New Testament days.  James, the first apostle martyred, was killed by a sword (Acts 12:2).  We know that Christians have been fed to wild beasts and starved in dungeons.  The rider on this pale horse has not been too particular about the matter he has utilized to kill off the children of God.

But, what does it mean to kill "with death" (Rev. 6:8)?  The Greek word from which death is translated means this, and nothing more---DEATH.  This rider named Death has not only been granted the power to kill with sword and hunger and beasts of the earth, he has also been granted the power to kill with death.  What does this mean?  It simply means to make someone die.  When God granted Satan his opportunity with Job, He put a limit on his liberty with these words:  "Behold, he is in thine hand;  but save his life" (Job 2:6).  Satan was allowed to go as far with Job as he wanted to go, only he could not cause him to die.   However, he could have if God had let him.  Among the ways listed that the rider on the pale horse can kill Christians, he has also been granted the power or liberty to simply cause some to die.  How many Christians, especially those who seem to be in the prime of their service for Christ, have experienced what is commonly referred to as an "untimely death"?  I submit that this is often linked to the activity of the horseman of the 4th Seal.

Having spoke of the efforts of Christ's Bride being rode roughshod over (relating to the first three horsemen), how long have those who make up His Bride been themselves rode roughshod over by something, and for so many, even to the point of martyrdom?  Based on the evidence of Scripture, it is this rider on the pale horse of the 4th Seal that has been the sinister influence Satan has employed to push for the persecution and martyrdom of Christians since the days of the apostles.  It can be truthfully said that the "gates of hell" (Matt. 16:18) have long followed with this rider called Death, both bent on doing as much damage as they can to the cause of Christianity, even to the point of mercilessly killing Christians.  Whatever one may believe about the seals, millions of Christians have been subjected to suffering and death, but the Church has yet to be prevailed against (Matt. 16:18).  Amen!

Now realize this:  A big reason the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church is because God has put some limits on things.  One of these limits will be the focus of my next post in this thread, and it should not be too difficult to understand."

====================

My next post in the thread from which I copied the above concerned "the fourth part of the earth" (Rev. 6:8) and how that this is a geographical, not a population reference.  The way you worded your comments, I believe we may be seeing alike on this.  The above was from my thread, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).

Sorry, but I rather think Death parallels Jesus' "pestilence." This has certainly happened over and over in the 1/4 of the earth these three riders were limited to.

It is OK if we disagree.

[not an echo]

On 3/29/2022 at 9:25 AM, iamlamad said:

It is OK if we disagree.

Hello iamlamad,

I agree.   Whether I come to see something exactly as another in the family of God, I have often been helped by considering others' thoughts and conclusions.  My prayer is that my thoughts and conclusions will be of a help as well.  Just think, one very fine day we will get to sit at Jesus' feet and find out first hand what we got right, what we got wrong, and why.

In reflection, I am still curious about a couple of things that I brought up that I don't believe you spoke to.

One is my question concerning how John could have been reduced to crying (Rev. 5:4) over the search you believe he was observing from 60+ years in the past---before Christ's resurrection.  I mean, if God like teleported John back in time to witness what it was like that day, in my thinking, this would not have stopped John from knowing what he knew.  As I mentioned, he had already wrote his account of the Gospel and three epistles.  And, he had just saw Jesus before receiving his invite to "Come up hither" (4:1).

Another is the thing about the "white" horse and your belief that the rider is the Church.  You said, "John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and every other time to represent righteousness or pureness of Godliness. Can you imagine that out of 17 God would use white once for something evil? I can't imagine such a thing. The color of the horse must represent righteousness."

To this, I asked, "How often is 'light' used in Scripture, and when does it ever denote something evil?  Yet, Satan transforms himself 'into an angel of light.'  If it is 'no great thing' for Satan's ministers to be 'transformed as the ministers of righteousness,'  why would we think it would be a great thing for 'that spirit of antichrist' (I Jn. 4:3) to be depicted as riding a white horse?"

Finally, I'm thinking that we may be in agreement concerning my understanding of the subject of this particular thread, The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse.  I'm thinking that this rider and his steed have been behind all the dust being kicked up in the country of Ukraine for the past few weeks.  And, if you look back over history, you can see his trail all the way back to before the close of the first century.  Just like Jesus said (Matt. 24:6-7a).  Just exactly like Jesus said.  One thing about it:  Jesus sure hit all His nails square on the head.  But then, He was the Divine Carpenter!

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

One is my question concerning how John could have been reduced to crying 

I suspect that as John was seeing this vision, he was also getting "downloads" of information. That has happened to me. My guess is, when He saw that book, suddenly he KNEW inside how important it was to get it opened, so that earth could finally be free from Satan as the prince or god of this world.

Then when he saw that first search end in failure, he wept much.

The Holy Spirit caused me to get stuck on John weeping much. I wonder why on earth God choose to show us John weeping and why much. (I am convinced that ever word was GOD planned in the bible.) God put it there for a reason. So I kept bugging God about why He chose to include John weeping. HOW did He answer?

It shows timing.

 Then after some time that I could not find "timing" He spoke again.

It also shows the movement of time.

Then I STILL could not see it. It was like I was the dullest knife in the drawer! For weeks, hours each day, I studied these two chapters trying to find timing and the movement of time.

You see, if God were to give us just a few words to describe HIS purpose in these two chapters, it would be timing, and the movement of time. 

Why then did God start the vision with chapters 4 & 5? To give us TIMING.

Yet, most readers IGNORE the timing (Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down) and go with their own human reasoning.

Please understand what God showed me. TIME PASSED as John wept much. Another search was conducted, or perhaps more than one, for we don't know how much time passed in a search or how soon after one search another was started.

The main point is, WHAT HAPPEN during that time? Something BIG happened that caused Jesus to BECOME worthy to take the book and open the seals. John only tells us He "prevailed." John does not give us more information. I can therefore only GUESS from other scriptures that written on the outside of the book was instructions on WHO could open the seals - and it had to be a man who rose from the dead under His own power.  Such an instruction would LIMIT who was worthy down to only ONE MAN: The Messiah.

I wanted to add: John watched this search take place in heaven first, then on earth, then under the earth: there was no place else to search. It seems the angel was expecting someone to speak up and say "I AM WORTHY..." but perhaps not.

The point of this verse is simple: at this time NO MAN was worthy, included the God/man, Jesus Christ. He had to be in one of those three areas. Father God could not say He was worthy, nor could the Holy Spirit. It seems it had to be a man.

Edited March 31, 2022 by iamlamad