The Rapture Deception

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

  20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4 & 5 about the rapture: only those IN CHRIST are raptured.

IN CONTEXT then, only those IN CHRIST are not appointed to wrath. 

Absolutely true. Then what of the group here?

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Pretrib says great tribulation, the 70th week, the tribulation period, is all the wrath of God. Clearly this group is redeemed as they are standing before the throne and have come out of great tribulation. Not possible per the Pretrib doctrine. They would have endured the wrath of God, to which the doctrine you hold says we are not appointed. Yet your doctrine says this group must endure God's wrath. A sticky issue and no answer from the advocates of Pretrib.

It is wise not to fight against what God has written; only try to understand it. Note that God's wrath is for SOMEBODY:

Luke 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Romans 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Ephesians 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Luke is pointed at the Jews, but the verses in Romans and Ephesians towards all sinners,, Jew and Gentile alike. 

Now, WHY are those who will be left behind - GET left behind? Has God done everything He could to get people ready? Can we blame God or those left behind?

Now to your question: can God have TWO (or more) periods of time that he calls "great tribulation?"  Can God CREATE "great tribulation" if He chooses to? Can "Great tribulation" be great because it lasts the entire church age - as year after year, more martyrs are added to the number? Can "Great tribulation" be great if even for a relatively short period of time martyrs are being murdered around the world in staggering numbers? Also take note, just these two words, "Great Tribulation" was NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe those days that would begin after the midpoint abomination. Jesus had to and to those two words and tell us that these days would be worse tribulation than every before on earth and never again would there be such days. 

What am I saying? Let me use other words:

There is "the great tribulation" that is great because it lasts the entire church age. Probably the number will be in the millions. 

Then there will be "the great tribulation" greater than any other that Jesus said would be for a short period of time in the last half of the future 70th week. 

John tells us what will CAUSE the days of GT in Rev. 13. Then we see God warning people about not taking the mark in chapter 14, and we finally see the beheaded showing up in heaven in chapter 15. 

We have two options here that I can think of for  "the great tribulation" in chapter 7 : either God showed John something WAY WAY out of Chronology and showed John people from the timing of chapter 15 way back in chapter 7 - OR  - God is calling two different time periods on earth as "Great tribulation," and only ONE scripture in the whole bible as "THE Great tribulation" (with no words added as to how great.)

I searched many different translations for "the great tribulation"  -  a term people use a lot - and it is found ONLY here in chapter 7. I can only concluded that MEN have put the title: "the great tribulation" on the wrong period of time!  God considers the church age as "the great tribulation." I can only guess because it will end up being around 2000 years long.  On the other hand, that last half of the 70th week God said would be days of "great tribulation" greater than any other time. In other words, it is going to be horrific, but it will only be horrific over a short period of time.

My conclusion then is that this great crowd, too large to number are the just raptured church, raptured at the 6th seal (just before) and that they came out of the church age ("the great tribulation") one by one as each got born again. In other words, they were raptured before God's wrath is poured out, but each one individually came out one by one from the church age "the great tribulation." The Greek for "came out" is a present tense continuous action verb, showing is that these came out "one by one. " John is not talking about how they got from earth to heaven suddenly; He is talking about how they got out of the world and into heaven. They got born again one by one. 

They certainly did not come from the second half of the week. There is no indication anywhere that John jumps around in time. 

Pretrib says great tribulation, the 70th week, the tribulation period, is all the wrath of God.  And they say right: it IS: God's wrath begins in chapter 6 and continues on through to chapter 16. 

Clearly this group is redeemed as they are standing before the throne and have come out of great tribulation.   Yes, they DID come out of the "the great tribulation" church age - and they came out one by one as each was born again. 

Not possible per the Pretrib doctrine.  YES possible: they came out of the church age one by one as each was born again.  They did NOT come out of chapter 15 or 16!

They would have endured the wrath of God,  The rapture comes a moment before the Day of the Lord, and His wrath starts AT the day of the Lord, so the church is taken out BEFORE His wrath.

Yet your doctrine says this group must endure God's wrath.   No, NOT God's wrath. These came out during the church age  - one by one. God is not angry during the church age.

OF COURSE there is an answer, for God is pretrib and will certainly take the church out prewrath.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

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So what do YOU think? Where are the "taken" taken?

To the clouds where Jesus will be.

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Does this sound like an answer Jesus would make if He was thinking of the rapture of the church,

Not sure. I don't know the mind the Lord, nor became His counselor. What I can tell you is that these verses are not about the rapture of the Church. The Church will be in heaven before this event occurs. The Church will however be gathered from heaven along with the 12 tribes from the earth (not the nation of Israel) when the gathering occurs just prior to the wrath of God. See Rev 6, Rev 14, Matt 24.

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where old bodies are changed to resurrection bodies? I don't think so. Maybe you do.

Perhaps it is the spirit and soul "taken" and a dead body is left for the birds.

 

Are you really unable to grasp what Jesus is referring to? Are you really looking for eagles or vultures?

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by The Light

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, The Light said:

  2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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So what do YOU think? Where are the "taken" taken?

To the clouds where Jesus will be.

It is without a doubt that at Paul's rapture those snatched up will fly up into the air. I am not sure "taken" fits this: but if it does, then taken by the Holy Spirit to meet Jesus in the air. I don't think this has anything to do with the "taken" where Jesus mentions birds eating flesh.

On the other hand, Jesus did talk about the parable of the tares, where angels are sent out to weed out the lawless. I can easily picture them being "taken." Not their body, but their spirit yanked right out of their body and cast into hell; and their bodies just fall dead. 

I cannot see any reason why Jesus should mention a dead body for the birds to eat at Paul's rapture.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Is the bride of Christ the same as those who are "in Christ?"  If not, what's the difference?

That is an extremely good question: It is the Bride who will be caught up and so be in heaven for the marriage. Will ALL those "in Christ" be raptured? For example, what if someone "In Christ" is commuting fornication at that moment? Would they be caught up? I don't know. What if someone was absolutely sure they would see the Beast before they saw Christ - so not expecting Him? Would they be caught up? I wish I knew for sure.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Eddy Crocker said:

Future tense is only for those who don’t have the eyes to see and the ears to hear yet. Everything had been fulfilled and done already. Not one thing has to be done.
 

Remember we are in the realm of time so these things as future only applies to those who can’t see yet fully. Eternity is being played out in the realm of time. As soon as your eyes are open then that manifestation is played out upon your soul. The problem is many are trying to see all these things played out with their physical eyes. It’s never going to happen according to a physical and carnal mind. Good luck to those seeking these prophesies to be fulfilled physically. Every spiritual reality will have a manifestation but you probably won’t be able to see the manifestation when it happens because it’s not going to come the way your carnal mind has interpreted it in the first place.

You said that backwards: a true preterist is one who does not understand the word "future" nor see the future in any of the prophecies God has meant for our future, such as the future 70th week.  All I am saying is, preterists are going to be SHOCKED when the 70th week begins to play out in our future exactly as Revelation says it will.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Abraham believed and it was counted to him as being righteous. Naaman and the Widow were thus according to Yeshua.

I think you are being very literal where spiritual or 'other' is implied. God has always saved whom He decides to. And then we have to talk about 'where' are the spirits stored? Some say heaven and some say in the grave or Sheol. Seems Moses and Elijah and many more are actually glorified and with the Lord. (ref: the Mt of Transfiguration). What of Enoch?

And which rendition of the scriptures is correct to your standards since there are many and not many published since the Qumran discoveries.

I doubt if any rendition of the scriptures is 100% according to the original scripts, but most - if not all - are good enough  that if someone believes they can go to heaven.  When I study, I like to look at Hurts Parallel Greek (not that I can read Greek) and see how the different Greek Texts vary. I tend to favor the majority text and the English translations from that.  Yes, of course back in the Old Covenant and before it FAITH in God was all anyone could have.  All through the Old Covenant time (and before) the justice side of God wanted sin to be punished to the full - but the mercy side of God kept getting into Justice's way, sort of saying "we have a sacrifice preparing..." We can all thank God that after Jesus rose, justice was satisfied with the sacrifice! 

All through the Old Testament people understood "the pit" and Sheol was "down."  That makes sense to me since Satan was and is the God of this world. Then when Jesus told of the story of the rich man and Lazarus, that made what was hinted at in the old very real. I am a firm believer that we are a three part being created after God's own likeness.  I think Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses; being the only two people who did not die. 

As for Moses at the transfiguration: I can only guess that God called Him up from Abraham's bosom just as Samuel was called up long before. Elijah came down from heaven. This seems the only logical explanation.  Keep in mind, this was before Jesus rose and resurrected the elders of the Old Testament. I am quite sure Moses was one of those resurrected with Jesus. I suspect Adam was too. We can only guess on these things that are not written.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Good comment. "Let God be true and every man a liar".

Thanks. When I discover I am wrong about something; it makes me maybe a split second to change! I don't have any desire to hold onto anything not truth. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

That is all most of us can do, even if we quote scriptures we may not completely understand it all.

There are a few things I can be dogmatic about, because I heard from the Lord by hearing His audible (it seemed that) voice and words answering a question I asked about some verse or passage I did not understand.  I only wish He spoke like that more often!

[The Light]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is without a doubt that at Paul's rapture those snatched up will fly up into the air. I am not sure "taken" fits this: but if it does, then taken by the Holy Spirit to meet Jesus in the air. I don't think this has anything to do with the "taken" where Jesus mentions birds eating flesh.

On the other hand, Jesus did talk about the parable of the tares, where angels are sent out to weed out the lawless. I can easily picture them being "taken." Not their body, but their spirit yanked right out of their body and cast into hell; and their bodies just fall dead. 

I cannot see any reason why Jesus should mention a dead body for the birds to eat at Paul's rapture.

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Do you not understand? What if Jesus gave a different answer. What if He said, "Where the ice cream truck driver is, thither will the kids be gathered together?"
 

Would you understand what He is talking about or would you be looking for ice trucks and kids?

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, The Light said:

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Do you not understand? What if Jesus gave a different answer. What if He said, "Where the ice cream truck driver is, thither will the kids be gathered together?"
 

Would you understand what He is talking about or would you be looking for ice trucks and kids?

It is for sure the "body" and "eagles" are in reference to the one taken, NOT to the one left behind. If they are taken bodily - which they all will in the rapture - then it seems this just cannot be about the rapture of the church. 

In context, if Jesus was chronological, it does not fit Paul's timing for the rapture (unless one believes in posttrib).

Edited April 26, 2020 by iamlamad