The Rapture Deception

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

This is your first mistake: You've equated the "whole 7 years" as "the tribulation." The Scriptures NEVER say that! In fact, the accusative form of the Greek word "thlipsis," "thlipsin," is found in verse 9!

Matthew 24:9-11 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

And, verse 11 hails back to verses 4 and 5:

Matthew 24:4-5 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

" (You) Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ (I am the Messiah)'; and shall deceive many. ..."

Thus, Yeshua`s (Jesus') "tribulation" began in the First Century A.D. against His own, original disciples! It's been an on-going "tribulation" since then!

Did you give the correct location? Matthew 23 says NOTHING about a "gathering!" The closest thing in that chapter is Yeshua`s scathing words against the scribes and Pharisees and other Jews of Jerusalem when He said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!"

That's a "gathering" that NEVER HAPPENED! And, there's no promise here that it will happen in the future! Now, if you meant Matthew 13, we can discuss that.

I think you did not understand what I wrote.  Perhaps I could have written it better:

"

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Notice what is really written: "those days..." We could ask, "those days" of WHAT? What is Matthew telling us? It is "those days" of "great tribulation." You see, man in his great wisdom has - in error - put a TITLE on things: the whole 7 years is "the tribulation"  (when John said in chapter 1 that HE was in "the tribulation.") and the last half is "great tribulation." The truth is, in or during the last half of the week, there will be DAYS of great tribulation.  First the false prophet has to show up, then the image created, then the mark created and THEN (after the angel warning in chapter 14) the days of GT will begin in earnest as they enforce worshiping the image and making all receive the mark.  "

I will highlight what I think you missed: I don't use those titles, but I notice many other writers do. I pointed out that John in chapter 1 called the entire church age "the tribulation." Most translators did not believe John so did not translate the "THE." It is there in all the Greek Texts. 

Note that Jesus DID use the term; "the tribulation..." here: ²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days  I suspect he is referring only to the days of GT He had just mentioned. 

Therefore, what you imagined was my "first mistake" was not a mistake at all.  Sorry, "the gathering" is in Matthew 24: the angels sent out to "gather together the elect..." Sorry If I wrote Matthew 23. 

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is for sure the "body" and "eagles" are in reference to the one taken, NOT to the one left behind. If they are taken bodily - which they all will in the rapture - then it seems this just cannot be about the rapture of the church. 

In context, if Jesus was chronological, it does not fit Paul's timing for the rapture (unless one believes in posttrib).

There will be a prewrath (post trib) rapture in addition to the pretrib rapture of the church. Paul assures those in his time that they are not in the Day of the Lord. If they were in the Day of the Lord, the man of sin would be revealed. That's why I keep telling you that the tribulation and the wrath of God do not happen in the same time frame.

2 Thes 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

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The context of this verse does say we shall be taken into the air "to meet the Lord in the air," but it does NOT say where we will be going next!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It NEVER said where the Lord would be going next! The "back to heaven" part is FABRICATED!

Here is your third mistake: Yeshua` (Jesus) NEVER said that He would "one day come and get us and take us to those homes!" Here's what He DID say:

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He said He would come again and receive them (and us) unto Himself, but He NEVER said where He would be going next! What He DID say was that where He would be then, there THEY (and US) may be also! This passage never even IMPLIES that He would be going back with us to His Father's house! That, too, is FABRICATED!

John writes later (in Revelation 21) that His Father's house (as a Bedouin tent) comes HERE! It will be THEN that we can enjoy our "mansions!"

My friend, you wasted the first few sentences for indeed, we all know that the air and the clouds are UP. "Up does not need to be included or expressly written. That being said, in English "up" is said:  "7 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up..."

It NEVER said where the Lord would be going next! The "back to heaven" part is FABRICATED!  My friend, we don't form doctrine from isolated scriptures; we form doctrine from ALL scripture. Most of the church world recognizes John 14 as showing us the destination once we are in the clouds. I understand, posttribers have to put a different meaning on John 14. I don't think their take on that scripture is the intended meaning. 

Here is your third mistake: Yeshua` (Jesus) NEVER said that He would "one day come and get us and take us to those homes!"  Pretribbers think He DID. 

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, [in heaven is where He went to prepare homes] I will come again, [Paul wrote of this coming in 1 Thes. 4]and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [Where "am" Jesus during the 70th week? Of course, Jesus "am" in heaven.  And He tells us here that WE are going to be WITH HIM where He is.]

What did Paul write: THEY get "sudden destruction," but WE get "salvation" (raptured) and get to "live together with Him." WHEN? After 7 years? NO! As soon as it takes to get from the air to heaven. He also wrote in chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord." WHEN? After 7 years? NO! Right then, as soon as it takes to get from the air above the earth to heaven.  God did not even TRY to make this complicated.  

He NEVER said where He would be going next! We get that from all the OTHER scriptures. Where is He before He descends in Rev. 19? Of course IN HEAVEN. It is a HUGE mistake to form doctrine from isolated scriptures. Any theory must fit all end times scriptures. If Jesus is in heaven in chapter 19, it is about 100 % that He is in heaven during chapters 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 1o, 9, 8, and 7. 

I understand, posttribers don't see it that way because they imagine this all happens at the end - when Jesus comes to Armageddon. If this was true - which it isn't - why did Jesus bother writing John 14, or why bother building us homes?  Some would say, oh, He will take us to the homes after the 1000 year reign! No, the truth is, the homes will come to earth then 

This passage never even IMPLIES that He would be going back with us to His Father's house! Oh, I must disagree. it even MORE then implies!  I think you have to read it with preconceived glasses to get any OTHER idea. He went to build a home (Just like ancient Jewish weddings) and one day will come and get His bride and take her TO that home He has built (just like a Jewish wedding of that day.)  I have discovered that preconceived glasses can really  change texts and blind the readers to the truth. 

In a typical Jewish marriage of the day, did the groom take a thousand years to come and get His bride? I hardly think so. It is those pesky preconceived glasses again! 

Look: if you don't want to wait out the time of God's wrath on earth in your mansion in the sky, I am  sure God will leave you behind. I don't know why you would want to wait the thousand years though. The Bride is going to see their mansions quite soon now. 

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

However, this occurs AFTER the "thousand years," the "Millennium," of Revelation 20:1-7.

Well, Peter (Kefa ["Cephas"], which means "a hollow stone; a geode") told us about it in 2 Peter 3, but you're right: "The Day of the Lord" is NOT "one 24-hour day, but an extended period of time when GOD'S will is done on earth."

2 Peter 3:7-13 (KJV)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:8-15).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (at the beginning); in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (at the end).

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

But, the Millennium is just the BEGINNING of that extended period of time! We were also told this through the words of Gavri'el (Gabriel) to Miryam (Mary):

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And, the nations of the earth still exist in the new earth for we are told,

Revelation 21:24-27 (KJV)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I believe that the Scriptures teach us that the "Rapture," not to "Heaven," but to the air where we meet with the Lord and then descend to the Middle East, occurs at the END of the whole 2,000-year tribulation, marked by the sun, moon, and stars signs. Yeshua` told us,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (in the sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I believe this is ALL of His "elect," His "chosen ones!"

These signs in the skies do not end until Revelation 9! Then, it is in Revelation 11 that we read,

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever!"

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

I believe that the Scriptures teach us that the "Rapture," not to "Heaven," but to the air where we meet with the Lord and then descend to the Middle East, occurs at the END of the whole 2,000-year tribulation, marked by the sun, moon, and stars signs.  You are free to believe that, But is that God's intent in the scriptures? I think we are going to descend with Christ to Armageddon. I guess that is in the middle EAst. I also think we are very very close to the end of 2000 years of church age. 

they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."  Sorry, the gathering in Matthew 24 is not Paul's rapture for the church: it is 7 years after the rapture and it gathers from the wrong place.  it is quite likely God gathering all of Israel BACK to Israel as He has promised. 

These signs in the skies do not end until Revelation 9  What signs and when do these signs you refer to begin? Are you referring to the signs at the 6th seal? 

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,  Your umteenth mistake: the 7th trumpet will mark the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end. Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology will be proven wrong.

Do you really think there was REAL HAIL inside the temple of the Lord? Don't you think that might have been prophecy of what is coming to earth?

[iamlamad]

19 minutes ago, The Light said:

There will be a prewrath (post trib) rapture in addition to the pretrib rapture of the church. Paul assures those in his time that they are not in the Day of the Lord. If they were in the Day of the Lord, the man of sin would be revealed. That's why I keep telling you that the tribulation and the wrath of God do not happen in the same time frame.

2 Thes 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I agree, the beheaded must be resurrected and that resurrection, in my mind, will be with all the rest of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial that ends the week. HOWEVER, it most certainly will NOT be "prewrath." Why is this so difficult? Go back and read the 6th seal again: THAT Is where God's wrath begins. He is still angry (has wrath) in chapter 16. Why is it so difficult to understand His wrath therefore is in the trumpets AND the vials? 

Maybe you imagine you can just move that 6th seal anywhere you please to fit some weird theory.  If that is what you must do, leave me out of it! I refuse to rearrange Revelation. 

Paul assures those in his time that they are not in the Day of the Lord. If they were in the Day of the Lord, the man of sin would be revealed.  I agree. Wonder of wonders: we agree on something! Wrath begins at the 6th seal as in the DAY of the Lord starts there too. Each trumpet comes with Wrath since them come INSIDE the day of the Lord. At the 7th trumpet the man of sin will be revealed to the world. As Paul said, all will know then that THE DAY has come and they are in it. 

That's why I keep telling you that the tribulation and the wrath of God do not happen in the same time frame.  Your argument makes no sense at all. What is it you are calling "the tribulation?" Are you calling the 70th week "the tribulation?" 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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eI agree, the beheaded must be resurrected and that resurrection, in my mind, will be with all the rest of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial that ends the week.

The week is over before the 1st trump is blown.

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HOWEVER, it most certainly will NOT be "prewrath." Why is this so difficult? Go back and read the 6th seal again: THAT Is where God's wrath begins. He is still angry (has wrath) in chapter 16. Why is it so difficult to understand His wrath therefore is in the trumpets AND the vials? 

The gathering will be before the wrath of God. The gathering will occur at the 6th seal. At that time the world will see Jesus in the clouds and know that wrath is at hand. Wrath begins when the 1st trump is blown.

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Maybe you imagine you can just move that 6th seal anywhere you please to fit some weird theory.  If that is what you must do, leave me out of it! I refuse to rearrange Revelation. 

I am not moving the sixth seal and have absolutely no need to rearrange revelation. I just understand that wrath is over at the 7th trump. Then we are back in the seals in Rev 13 and the the majority of Rev 14. At the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 we see the beginning of wrath. At the end of Rev 14 we see an event that occurs at the end of wrath. Then we see the beginning of wrath with the 1st vial and end of wrath with the 7th vial. All you have to do is read EXACTLY what it says.

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 I agree. Wonder of wonders: we agree on something! Wrath begins at the 6th seal as in the DAY of the Lord starts there too. Each trumpet comes with Wrath since them come INSIDE the day of the Lord. At the 7th trumpet the man of sin will be revealed to the world. As Paul said, all will know then that THE DAY has come and they are in it. 

You have the man of sin being revealed at the 7th trump. Gods wrath is over at the 7th trump. Why can't you just read what it says? BTW, the man of sin is revealed probably toward the end of the week when the abomination of desolation is set up on day 2475. On day

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It's beyond my ability to perceive why you can't grasp the when the 7th angel sounds the mystery of God is finished. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God. That means Jesus has returned and defeated the armies of the world and set his foot on the Mount of Olives. That means GODS WRATH IS OVER. Do you want another view? Look in REV 14. Want another view, look in Rev 15 and 16.

BTW, the man of sin is revealed probably toward the end of the week when the abomination of desolation is set up on day 2475. On day 2520 Christ returns. See Matt 24, Rev 6 at the sixth seal, Jesus coming in the clouds at the end of Rev 14.

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  Your argument makes no sense at all. What is it you are calling "the tribulation?" Are you calling the 70th week "the tribulation?" 

The 70th week of Daniel is the tribulation for the 12 tribes. The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. Then in Matt 24 and Rev 6 and Rev 14 we get a view of the coming of Jesus for the gathering. This is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. They both return to heaven for the wedding super. Meanwhile part of Israel is still blind (the nation of Israel). They remain on earth during the wrath of God but are in a place of protection.

The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal. Then there is time, times and half time that the wrath of God occurs. All you have to do is read what it says, EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. When the Word of God says at the sounding of the 7th trump, the mystery of God is finished and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God, that's what is means. It means that Jesus has returned with His armies from heaven, defeated the enemy and set up His kingdom. Just read what it says and put things where it says. It's all lined up perfectly.

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by The Light

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, The Light said:

The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal. 

Sorry, I won't even answer someone that knows so little about the Chronology of Revelation. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

There will be a prewrath (post trib) rapture in addition to the pretrib rapture of the church. Paul assures those in his time that they are not in the Day of the Lord. If they were in the Day of the Lord, the man of sin would be revealed. That's why I keep telling you that the tribulation and the wrath of God do not happen in the same time frame.

2 Thes 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You are trying to separate wrath from "trib" but it is impossible because they are concurrent - happening at the same time.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I won't even answer someone that knows so little about the Chronology of Revelation. 

I understand why you won't answer. You can't comprehend it. You think that the wrath of God is about the Gentile Church, which makes not sense whatsoever, since we are not appointed to wrath.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the 12 tribes. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The wrath of God comes after the 70th week is over. I don't care how many so called prophecy experts think that the tribulation and the wrath of God occur in the same time frame. We can prove that the 70th week is over before the wrath of God begins. Just like we can prove that the wrath is over at the 7th trump. As you like to say, the truth is that you can't see what is obvious when the angel blows the 7th trump. Wrath is over.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are trying to separate wrath from "trib" but it is impossible because they are concurrent - happening at the same time.

How can you see when you think that the seals are opened. All you have to do is compare the seals to Matt 24 and see that Jesus and John agree. Both tell us about the last days and both agree perfectly and yet, you cannot see. How can you see when you think that the  abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week. How can you understand when you can't see that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the same coming that occurs at the 6th seal AND at the end of Rev 14. It totally boggles my mind. Everything fits so perfectly. All you have to do is get out of the way and put things were God says they go. I see the mess that you believe and wonder how it is possible that you can.t understand that most everything you think is wrong. It's like God blinds your eyes as He does the Jews.

How can you not comprehend that Jesus has returned with His armies from heaven and everything is concluded at the 7th trump. What more is necessary to get your eyes to open. The mystery of God is over when the 7th trump begins to sound. When the trump sounds, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God. It is finished. It is over. It is done. It is complete.

It's like meeting a Jew and explaining the Gospel. Showing him all the things in the old testament that show that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. Then going through their feasts and showing them that He is the Passover lamb. No matter what facts, scriptures, examples, feasts, they just can't see. I think that's what going on with you. No matter how many times I let the scripture speak for itself, you just can't see. Your eyes are blinded. That's the only explanation I can come up with.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

There I posted them again. It's over, it's finished, wrath is complete and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God. AND YET, NO MATTER WHAT, YOU CANNOT SEE.

Edited April 27, 2020 by The Light