The Rapture Deception

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

I think the verse speaks for itself.

Exactly: NO HINT of a rapture because of these elders. 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Exactly: NO HINT of a rapture because of these elders. 

No hint?  How did the elders get there?

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, The Light said:

No hint?  How did the elders get there?

They either died and their spirit and soul went  - or they were resurrected when Jesus rose from dead.  We really don't know because John does not tell us. To imagine Paul's rapture got them there is very poor exegesis. We cannot just ad lib theories out of imagination. 
 

Your theory does not fit 1 Thes. 4 & 5 for the timing Paul gives us. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

They either died and their spirit and soul went  - or they were resurrected when Jesus rose from dead.  We really don't know because John does not tell us. To imagine Paul's rapture got them there is very poor exegesis. We cannot just ad lib theories out of imagination. 
 

Your theory does not fit 1 Thes. 4 & 5 for the timing Paul gives us. 

Okay, that makes perfect sense. Finally.

Now I am able to understand how you can imagine a coming of Jesus at the end of the 5th seal when there is ABSOLUTELY NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER of such an event. I was not prepared and almost spit my coffee out when I read your answer. You are a crackup. Someday, maybe, snowballs chance, it will occur to you that Jesus and John agree about what happens at the end of the age.

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Okay, that makes perfect sense. Finally.

Now I am able to understand how you can imagine a coming of Jesus at the end of the 5th seal when there is ABSOLUTELY NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER of such an event. I was not prepared and almost spit my coffee out when I read your answer. You are a crackup. Someday, maybe, snowballs chance, it will occur to you that Jesus and John agree about what happens at the end of the age.

Just so you know, if Paul said his rapture comes just before wrath - and he DID say that - then that IS biblical support. I understand, for people with wild imaginations real biblical support flies right over their head. 

We don't form doctrine from imagination or human imagination: Doctrine must come from the written word of God - and then not isolated verses pulled out of context: it must from from all end times scriptures. 

Yes, OF COURSE Jesus and John agree: because Jesus gave John the revelation. 

Read and learn: the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. (A 70th week martyr would KNOW that they were martyred in the midst of judgment. Stephen, on the other hand, had no idea how long the age of grace would last.) They were told they must wait for the full number of martyrs killed as they were - as church age martyrs.) 
 

So what will make or cause the very last martyr of the church age? Of course the pretrib rapture of the church that will END the church age. The moment after the rapture it will be Day of the Lord time. It is obvious then that the church has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal - waiting for the end of the age of grace so judgment can begin.

People tried to fit this scenario into Rev. 4:1  IN ERROR for many years. There is only one place in the Revelation narrative where Paul's rapture fits: BETWEEN the 5th and 6th seal. If someone said AT the 6th seal, I would have to disagree: it will be rapture first THEN wrath.

I know: for those that use imagination and preconceptions to form end time doctrine, this will go right over their head. I write for the readers. 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

Just so you know, if Paul said his rapture comes just before wrath - and he DID say that -then that IS biblical support.

Which is why the rapture gathering happens at the 6th seal when Jesus returns and not in the 5th seal where there is no Biblical support.

Quote

I understand, for people with wild imaginations real biblical support flies right over their head.

Ain't that the truth. Some even dream up rapture at the end of the 5th seal with no Biblical support whatsoever instead of realizing that Jesus returns at the 6th seal where there is plenty of Biblical support.

Quote

We don't form doctrine from imagination or human imagination:

Correct. WE don't.

Quote

Doctrine must come from the written word of God - and then not isolated verses pulled out of context:

So if it must come from the written word, how is it that you are dreaming up a rapture out of thin air at the end of the 5th seal. Maybe you should throw in a extra one in the 4th seal just in case. It's easy to timeline work when you just plug in stuff anywhere.

Quote

Yes, OF COURSE Jesus and John agree: because Jesus gave John the revelation. 

Those are words. Your timeline does not agree with your statement.

Quote

Read and learn: the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

You can read, but I'm not expecting anything beyond that. The Church is in heaven before any seals are open. Those 5th seal martyrs are of the 12 tribes.

Quote

 

(A 70th week martyr would KNOW that they were martyred in the midst of judgment
 

So what will make or cause the very last martyr of the church age? Of course the pretrib rapture of the church that will END the church age. The moment after the rapture it will be Day of the Lord time. It is obvious then that the church has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal - waiting for the end of the age of grace so judgment can begin.

 

Obvious that you insist on having believers appointed to wrath, regardless of what the Word says. I guess if that's the only way you can make things work out, you gotta do, what you gotta do. Since we know that the fig tree has two harvests where do you want to throw the other rapture. Have you thought about throwing in a rapture in year 777 of the millennial kingdom. Remember about those sevens.

Quote

People tried to fit this scenario into Rev. 4:1  IN ERROR for many years. There is only one place in the Revelation narrative where Paul's rapture fits: BETWEEN the 5th and 6th seal.

I's say the rapture of the Church in Rev 4 and the rapture of the 12 tribes at the sixth seal since that agrees with what can be seen in the word.

Quote

If someone said AT the 6th seal, I would have to disagree: it will be rapture first THEN wrath.

Which is why Jesus comes at the 6th seal and wrath begins AFTER the seventh seal is open.

Quote

I know: for those that use imagination and preconceptions to form end time doctrine, this will go right over their head. I write for the readers. 

You do crack me up. Need a resurrection? Pick a spot. Need coming of Jesus? Pick a spot. How about an extra abomination of desolation just before the concocted rapture in year 777. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  Quote

Just so you know, if Paul said his rapture comes just before wrath - and he DID say that -then that IS biblical support.

Which is why the rapture gathering happens at the 6th seal when Jesus returns and not in the 5th seal where there is no Biblical support.

I have hope, if I show you the truth enough time, some of it will rub off. 

At the 5th seal, they are told they must wait for judgment (the 6th seal) until the very last church age martyr is killed. What will make a certain martyr the last martyr of the church age? It can only be the END of the church age. 

Therefore it does not matter if one says the rapture is at the end of the 5th seal or just before the 6th seal: it is speaking of the same point in time.  Here is the order:

Jesus comes

The dead in Christ rise - starting a world wide earthquake

Those who are alive are caught up, just as the ground begins to shake.

Those who are left behind are caught by Paul's "sudden destruction." 

The people see the earthquake (Isaiah 2), they see the sun turn black as sackcloth (Solar eclipse), they see the moon turn red (lunar eclipse) and they KNOW the day of the Lord has come. 

If someone insists it really comes with the first trumpet, I would not argue. I think it starts with the sudden destruction earthquake. I could be mistaken here.  Either way, wrath begins and the church is taken out before wrath. 

Therefore, His coming triggers the resurrection; then rapture, and the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. In other words, the DAY is not coming until after the rapture - exactly as God shows it in 2 thes. 2: the departing comes FIRST.

Note carefully, this will be Jesus SECOND (2nd) coming. His coming as shown in Rev. 19 (And Matthew 24) will be His THIRD (3rd) coming.  

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by iamlamad

[Eddy Crocker]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I have hope, if I show you the truth enough time, some of it will rub off. 

At the 5th seal, they are told they must wait for judgment (the 6th seal) until the very last church age martyr is killed. What will make a certain martyr the last martyr of the church age? It can only be the END of the church age. 

Therefore it does not matter if one says the rapture is at the end of the 5th seal or just before the 6th seal: it is speaking of the same point in time.  Here is the order:

Jesus comes

The dead in Christ rise - starting a world wide earthquake

Those who are alive are caught up, just as the ground begins to shake.

Those who are left behind are caught by Paul's "sudden destruction." 

The people see the earthquake (Isaiah 2), they see the sun turn black as sackcloth (Solar eclipse), they see the moon turn red (lunar eclipse) and they KNOW the day of the Lord has come. 

If someone insists it really comes with the first trumpet, I would not argue. I think it starts with the sudden destruction earthquake. I could be mistaken here.  Either way, wrath begins and the church is taken out before wrath. 

Therefore, His coming triggers the resurrection; then rapture, and the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. In other words, the DAY is not coming until after the rapture - exactly as God shows it in 2 thes. 2: the departing comes FIRST.

Note carefully, this will be Jesus SECOND (2nd) coming. His coming as shown in Rev. 19 (And Matthew 24) will be His THIRD (3rd) coming.  

 

If your risen with Christ this is the rapture. It’s not a physical rapture that’s why maybe you don’t see it a now or already done or taken place?

Scripture says if your risen with Christ seek those things that are above. If your already living in the above, how can that denote a physical rapture.

It also says we are seated in Christ in heavenly places. 
these scriptures speak of a reality here and now in the realm of time. Our bodies exist in the realm of time but our souls and spirit are in the state of Heaven. That state of heaven within us is the place. Anything future tense is only because that reality isn’t played out in us until our eyes are opened.

John4:35,

 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!
Mathew 13:39,

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

This scripture tells us not to pass the buck on a future moment as though 4 months have to go by in order for the harvest to come or the end of the world or age.
It tells us to lift up our eye and see that they are already white to harvest. Remember this is past tense.
I believe everything is done and finished but that reality must be played out within us before the death of our physical bodies.

We will suffer a loss if this is not worked out of us. This is part of working out our salvation. Theses are the works that have been predestined that we walk in.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, Eddy Crocker said:

If your risen with Christ this is the rapture. It’s not a physical rapture that’s why maybe you don’t see it a now or already done or taken place?

Scripture says if your risen with Christ seek those things that are above. If your already living in the above, how can that denote a physical rapture.

It also says we are seated in Christ in heavenly places. 
these scriptures speak of a reality here and now in the realm of time. Our bodies exist in the realm of time but our souls and spirit are in the state of Heaven. That state of heaven within us is the place. Anything future tense is only because that reality isn’t played out in us until our eyes are opened.

John4:35,

 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!
Mathew 13:39,

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

This scripture tells us not to pass the buck on a future moment as though 4 months have to go by in order for the harvest to come or the end of the world or age.
It tells us to lift up our eye and see that they are already white to harvest. Remember this is past tense.
I believe everything is done and finished but that reality must be played out within us before the death of our physical bodies.

We will suffer a loss if this is not worked out of us. This is part of working out our salvation. Theses are the works that have been predestined that we walk in.

If your risen with Christ this is the rapture. It’s not a physical rapture that’s why maybe you don’t see it a now or already done or taken place?  Eddy, we are talking about a physical resurrection: bodies from the grave flying up out of the graves and into the air. It is the very definition of "resurrection." For the church it will be a ONE TIME event coming soon in our future: The dead first, then those who are alive and In Christ will be caught up into air with them. 
Note this verse in the Amplified version:  3 If then you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.Here in this verse Paul is NOT talking about a physical resurrection. 

Paul is NOT talking about a physical resurrection in this verse.  He is speaking symbolically as when we came up out of the water were were raise to new life IN THE SPIRIT. In other words, IF one is born again, then one certainly should seek things above. It would be sad for one just born again to keep their thoughts on getting drunk on Friday night! Sadly, our bodies remain the same when we are born agian.  

If your already living in the above, how can that denote a physical rapture. Again, this is symbolic.  When we are physically IN HEAVEN we won't have to seek things there.  We will BE THERE.  Then again, Paul wrote in Ephesians that we are spiritually already raised to sit in heavenly places with Christ. 

Anything future tense  One day in our future WE (body soul and spirit) will be caught up (with the dead in Christ risen) and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Yes, we are there authoritatively speaking: Our faith comes with the authority of the throne room. When we speak God's word it is as if Jesus spoke it.