Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Smalcald]

I think all of that is true.

Yet scripture is not clear on this topic. We see direct examples of people believing they have salvation and not having it. So what does it mean when Christ says that some seeds fall on soil with thorns, and at first the Word is received with great joy, but the cares of this life strangle it out?

Who are those people who will say to Christ in the day of Judgement, Lord Lord, we healed people, worked miracles in your name, and He responds I never knew you, your deeds were evil? They obviously thought they were saved.

If we live a life of un-repented sin and think we are saved, I do think we are deluding ourselves about our salvation, although I don't think that contradicts your points.

I am not against eternal security, I just don

[Khristeeanos]

I am not against eternal security,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may not be, but the Word of God is.

That is why there are warnings given to CHRISTIANS in the New Covenant Scriptures that they could still end up in the lake of fire.

Galatians 5

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Thessalonians 4

3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Warnings, given to Christians that they could still end up missing heaven and yet some people ignore such Scriptures so that they can be comfortable in their sin.

Too many people make the mistake of thinking that just because we are saved by grace that faith is not part of the equasion. God's promises are always faithful, even the promises of spiritual death to the disbelieving (former) Christian.

[other one]

Well we've been through this many times and it turns out that those the believe you can quote some scripture and those who believe you can not loose your salvation will tell you that you were really just never saved in the first place.  They also have verses to show what they believe.

Final answer as they say on the TV, is that it is a hopeless discussion for no one but the Lord knows who is really saved for it is mostly within the heart that it happens.

So, I think I'll just leave it with the notion that first you must decide who is really saved and who is not.  Until that can be established the question you ask really has no definitive answer.

se

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I am going to quote myself on the second post that was put on this thread. I strongly believe that you all have pretty much proven me correct....

[halifaxchristian]

Otherone, you are right. Sometimes Biblical discussions like this just start to turn into circles. There are some people, for some reason, who are always going to believe that you can lose your salvation. Maybe they are trusting in their own goodness (at least partially) for salvation, perhaps they are sincere...I don't know. What I do know is that there is JOY in the soul of knowing that Jesus will never leave nor forsake...and this gives ME the true motivation that I need to serve Him with a pure and undefiled heart.

I love Him because He first loved me.

(By the way, I do not believe in Calvinism as I notice some who have posted above me do...but that's a whole other thread).

God bless.

[apothanein kerdos]

Alright Burtero, I'll be your hucklberry

Before I post this, I must let everyone know that I spent a good amount of time and study on these scriptures before posting my final reply. I have spent a total of about 5 hours researching and relearning these passages and what they mean. This is not to say 5 hours is my total experience on the issue, I have studied it deeply, but I wanted to put my full effort into this one (though I ended up coming short of a full effort). I say that to say this, do not simply throw away what I say as "absurd" or "ignorant". Don't come back and say, "Oh, you're wrong" and provide no analysis as to why. I expect a response on every single verse issued with counter analysis and analysis on why my interpretation is wrong. I have put time forth, thus I expect time back. If you cannot do this, then please (and I say this in the nicest way), don't respond. I merely want a fair debate where both sides take each argument into consideration. With that said, here is my post:

The attack begins with James 2:17-26. Admittedly, this is a highly controversial piece of scripture. It is so controversial that many have wondered if it was wise to keep in the Bible. However, the epistle of James teaches us many valuable lessons if we use the proper interpretation. James 2 must be explored within context. Verses 17-26 do not occur within a vacuum and consequently must be viewed in light of the unit. Verse one sets the context for us in that James speaks of using favoritism in our faith. The rest of the unit to verse 16 speaks of acting on our faith by not showing partiality to other believers. This culminates in verse 14 and the controversy begins. So what does James mean that faith without works is dead? What does it mean further that Abraham was justified by his works? It must be understood that if we take this to mean works saved Abraham, this would stand in direct contradiction to Romans 4:1-5, which specifically states that Abraham was not justified or saved by works. What exactly is James saying then? Where as Paul is talking about priority of faith, or what faith does, James is speaking about the proof of faith. They are saying the same thing but from different angles. Paul states that it was the faith Abraham had that saved him, not the works he committed. For it was by faith Abraham committed good works. James adds to this by showing that if a person claims to have faith but has not and does not produce good works, then that person is a liar and never truly had faith. This will be explained in detail later on with an explanation of the true vine. The conclusion drawn is that James is not saying works maintain faith or produce faith. This simply would not make any sense. How could one work for Christ if one did not believe in Christ? From faith comes works. Now it can be argued that if one stops showing works, then one

[Guest Gal56b]

Hello Beloveds,

May I just say Bravo!!!!!IN reading your reply I thought I was reaading my own discussion on another site from a pastor who after reading my book challenged me that one could lose their salvation. You were thorough and concise.Bravo!.

I normally ask this question before I debate.."If you could lose your salvation..did jesus really fulfill the Mosaic law.?If you coud lose your salvation...Did her truly die for your sins..." Many people are gavely mislead..some how they take the cross out of it.But the fact is..That Jesus died once to pay for all sins past present and future.He fulfilled the Mosaic Law. that's why we are "washed white as snow" In fact Brother..I have done an extensive study and cannot find anywhere in the scriptures where it says we must ask for forgiveness once saved( I'm not talking about the gospels that is before the new covenant..) I'm talking about the new covenant.. can't find them.. they all refer back to repent.. which is a turning away from sins... not asking for forgiveness.I really believe if we as a holy people kept our biblical glasses on and listened through ears filtered by the word then there wouldn't be all this chaos in doctrine. The bible is very clear. Don't you agree. This whole losing your salavion thing I believe is a scare tactic to "keep people in church" but instead it puts a cloud of shame and guilt upon people. I applaud you in your search for truth for that is the true spirit of prophecy.May you live your life to impact the next generation so that they inturn will impact thiers for the glory of God!

[halifaxchristian]

Super Jew and Gal56b...I applaud you both. Super Jew, I commend you for what I detect in your spirit is a sincere thirst and a dignity I have not witnessed for many days. God bless your soul and your heart and your mind and may you be richly blessed on earth now as you already are in the heavenlies...

And having done all, to STAND.

Thank you.

[other one]

SJ, You have a guift of explaining things in a way that I follow and understand. I do agree with your asessments of the subject. With most people my disagreements come from "Is a person saved" and you covered this quite well. Thank you for your time and effort. I hope it is ok to forward this to some friends.

Sam

Edited July 29, 2005 by other one

[apothanein kerdos]

SJ,  You have a guift of explaining things in a way that I follow and understand.  I do agree with your asessments of the subject.  With most people my disagreements come from "Is a person saved" and you covered this quite well.  Thank you for your time and effort.  I hope it is ok to forward this to some friends.

Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely. I can claim none of my knowledge as my own, cause quite frankly I'm an idiot. So it had to come from God, meaning there is no copyright

Gal, I will have to disagree with you on the forgiveness aspect, but that is for an entirely other topic. However, bear in mind, confession is just acknowledging we've done something wrong, only way we can repent is if we've realized our wrong. If we've realized our wrong, then we've confessed.

[halifaxchristian]

Super Jew, you said:

Absolutely. I can claim none of my knowledge as my own, cause quite frankly I'm an idiot. So it had to come from God, meaning there is no copyright

I like that one...haha...both humble and funny...a very talented man you are (because of God of course!!!)

God bless.