Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Guest shiloh357]

It is not enough to enter the race. If we want to obtain the crown we must finish the race. 1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." If Paul who we know was saved was capable of becoming a castaway, certainly it is possible for you and I to fall from grace as well.

Well again, your handling of Phil 2:12 does not refute one thing I have said. So... whatever.

As for 1 Cor. 9:27 Paul is talking being disqualified for service. He is not talking about losing his salvation.

[MrSealedEternal]

Thanks and I understand your point of view. I just don't accept your interpretation of that scripture. You are also overlooking scriptures as well, such as these from James chapter 2:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled: notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body: what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 thou believedst that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfiled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.

24 Ye see then, how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I think the point there is that you show your faith by your works. If you are working to save yourself however, then that type of work shows a lack of faith in Christ. In other words, your faith must precede your works. I work for the Lord because He has saved me already, and not because I think I need to or He will reject me. If I was working out of fear that not working would cause me to lose my salvation, then I would be demonstrating to Him that I really don't think He paid my debt in full by his grace, or in other words show a lack of faith in Him.

The example of Abraham above tells us that his faith was wrought with his works. He showed his faith that God would keep His promise to the descendants of Isaac, by doing what God said even though God's command seemed to contradict it.

Hebrews 11:8-13 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED." He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

Abraham showed God his faith by his works. The Bible clearly teaches that it is our faith that saves us, not our works. God uses Abraham throughout the Bible as the example.

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

You receive the Holy Spirit by trusting God. If you haven't trusted God, then you haven't been born again. You don't perfect your salvation by works, you undermine it.

Galatians 3:2-7 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

You must trust Christ to save you just as Abraham did. If you trust your works, you will not be credited as righteous. Again you're not putting all of the verses in context.

Mr SE

[other one]

After 65 pages, I think it is time for me to quote myself from the second post of this thread........

Well we've been through this many times and it turns out that those the believe you can quote some scripture and those who believe you can not loose your salvation will tell you that you were really just never saved in the first place. They also have verses to show what they believe.

Final answer as they say on the TV, is that it is a hopeless discussion for no one but the Lord knows who is really saved for it is mostly within the heart that it happens.

So, I think I'll just leave it with the notion that first you must decide who is really saved and who is not. Until that can be established the question you ask really has no definitive answer.

se

[Guest shiloh357]

If you think that Phil 2:12 is saying you have to work for your salvtion, YOU are the one who is mixed up on doctrine, buddy.

I don

[MrSealedEternal]

No. After salvation we are commanded to continue in the faith. This continuance consists of obedience to the law and repentance of sin. what will keep us out of heaven is not keeping the law and not repenting of my sins.

Galatians 2:4 But {it was} because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Galatians 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one {point,} he has become guilty of all.

Mr SE

[Guest shiloh357]

If you think that Phil 2:12 is saying you have to work for your salvtion, YOU are the one who is mixed up on doctrine, buddy.

I don

[Guest shiloh357]

I am going to try to break away from this for tonight. Early on when this thread was relatively new, I thought if I could only show what the Bible says on the matter, I could convince those deceived by the eternal security doctrine they were wrong. I was wrong. They have so many ways of making scriptures say things they don't, there is no way to make them see the truth. I mean, this evening I have even had to debate with someone Shiloh357 that thinks he is more knowledgeable that the dictionary. (Lighten up Shiloh 357 Can't you tell when someone is giving you a hard time?)

Actually, I don't know more than the dictionary. I even appealed to the definitions that you offered and acknowledged their validity. A fact you conveniently omit in order to type up this poppycock. I am not even arguing about OSAS. I am arguing against the error that cardcaptor is spewing, saying that we are saved by works. We might find more points of agreement if you bothered to get on the same page. But I guess that would be asking a lot. You claim that I am making the Bible say what it is not saying, but you are unable to demonstrate it. All you have is a lot of hot air, and no substance at this point.

[Guest shiloh357]

Quote

No, that is not making Jesus a liar. We are to puyt our faith in Christ and he brought another law for us to follow that is in some parts different than the old one.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Yes, but notice it is not a "New Law" but a New Covenant. Futhermore the Lord, furthermore God says that He is writing His laws on the heart. It does not say he is making a new law. He is taking the existing law and writing in on the heart. "New Covnenant" and "New Law" are not interchangeable terms. I would also point out that the term for "New Covenant" is brit chadashah in Hebrew, and means "renewed covenant." God renewed his covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. He did this at the cross when Jesus died. So not even the New Covenant is "New" in the absolute sense. It is a renewed and improved version of the Older Covenant which is now being made obsolete. Evidently you don't understand the terms you throw around.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

We know that a sin is a transgression of the law. If we all have sinned and come short of the glory of god then we had to break a law somewhere.

We are not justified by the law. That came from grace. Where we can lose that grace is when I disobey the law we are commanded to follow.

Nonsense. If we are not justified by the Law, then only the removal of what DID justify us can cause us to lose grace. The law cannot undo what Christ did on the cross. We, first of all are not "righteous" in the absolute sense. We are only credited with righteousness. Justification is a legal declarative term. We are DECLARED or judged righteous when we put our faith in what Christ did on the cross. Jesus death on the cross is the sole basis of justification. Therefore, the only way to undo our justification is to simply undo what Christ did on the cross. Our works did not get us saved, and they cannot keep us saved. Works play no part in maintaining or securing our salvation. I would ask you the same question that Paul asked the legalistic works-based Galatians... "Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect in the flesh?"

Indeed, we have all sinned, but that is not why anyone goes to hell. You don't go to hell over what you have done. You go to hell over what you are. You were born in sin, and that alone is why people go to hell. Sin is in our blood, so to speak. It taints us from birth. Even we were to never make a mistake, we would still go to hell on that basis. We fell short of God's glory the second we were conceived. Works do not play in how we get saved, and they do not play a part in how we stay saved. From beginning to end, salvation is both a gift and work of God and God alone.

1 John 3:4-7 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

If I don't do righteousness then I am unrighteous and have the wrath of God to deal with

Except that in neither passage is John or Paul talking about those who lose salvation. You are misapplying them to an issue they are not addressing. In 1 John 3:4-7 Paul is talking about how we can know the difference between those who have a true or false profession. The assumption John is making is what I have been saying all along. True Christians don't live in aberrant, unrepentant sin. Those who truly belong to Jesus are easy to point out. The difference between the faithful and those who offer only lip service is plain for anyone to see.

In Romaan 1:18 Paul is talking about those who are not born again who are under God's wrath. He is not talking about believers, but upon those in the world who are irretievably wicked.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How do I defile the temple?

Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

We have so many examples of god destroying those who are disobedient to the law in which he has set down for us. Even thou Christ will never leave nor forsake us we will leave him when I put my sins and desires before him. Then we have his wrath to look foward to.

Actually we do not have examples of this Let's examine the verses you quote here. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 says the following:

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17) But don't stop there!! Lets continue on with the next verses: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

(1 Corinthians 3:18-23)

The "defiling" that is being spoken of here has nothing to do with living in immorality. The chapter begins with Paul's disappointment in the Corinthians and their factions. Paul's realistic fear was that if they were going to be divided over Himself and Apollo, they would fall prey to other men as well, namely false teachers. He saw a very real, and very plausible situation where multiple factions would ensue every time they encountered a new "teacher." Paul was very quick to abase both himself an Apollos. He went on to say that if anyone defiles the temple, God would destroy. Paul is talking about false teacher and heretics making their way into the church and corrupting it.

He is not talking about immorality, but of false teachers corrupting the church with worldly wisdom, such as those who deny the deity of Jesus, as well as those who employ the philosophies of the world and in doing so create more and more factions within the congregation at Corinth.

In Matthew 15, Jesus is having a Rabbinic debate over eating with unwashed hands. It does not apply to this discussion, but then context doesn't matter to you anyway.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Who here said something about us not havng to prove ourselves worth of Christ? We walk worthy when I walk according to the commandments of God?

I don't anyone said that. Walking worthy of the Lord means to walk as becomes a follower of Christ. It does not mean to walk to worthy of being saved by the Lord. We should walk controled by His Spirit and according to His ordinances. This is describing what a Christian should look like. It is not instruction how to maintain salvation.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

If our salvation is already set in heaven because Christ did everything for us then why would Paul be always praying for them that God would count them worthy?

This was right after he made this comment:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is why we work out salvation in fear and trembling, so that we aren't one of the ones caught in his vengence.

What works save me from is this type of punishment. There is a retribution for not doing the work. It doesn't buy our salvation, it helps us to keep it.

No, our salvation is kept by Christ, not by us. He is our keeper. As for the verses presented here, "those who obey on the gospel..." are the unsaved. They are not disobedient Christians. No it is the Jesus that saves you from punishment not your works. The Bible says that the Chastisement (punishment) of our peace was upon Him. Jesus suffered the punishment we deserved and in doing so satisfied the justice of God.

If our salvation is already set in heaven because Christ did everything for us then why would Paul be always praying for them that God would count them worthy?

Because Paul is not praying for them to be worthy of salvation, but of their calling as Christians through whom Christ will be glorified. We all have this calling. It is the same as what Paul calls the "high calling of God in Christ Jesus." This is our prize. This is our reward.

If you go back to v. 6, Paul says that it is a righteous thing for God to pay retribution to those who trouble the Thessalonians. It is those who "obey not the gospel" who are the objects of that retribution. Christians are not the objects of God's wrath. This passage is talking about the second coming of Christ and the fate of those who rejected Him.

[Ovedya]

Looks like I missed quite a lot yesterday. Nevertheless, for what it's worth, I wanted to go ahead and respond to Butero's comments in our discussion:

You are right and wrong about what you said about Abraham. First, you are right that Abraham lived before the law of Moses was given. You are wrong in saying he was saved by faith without works following.

James 2:19-26 "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.

24 Ye see then, how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messegners, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

No, Abraham was not justified by keeping the law of Moses as it had not been given, but he was justified by works when he obeyed direct commands of God. Re-read verse 21. "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS...?"

Well, to begin with, saying that Abraham was justified by his works does not to mean that he was saved by his works. It would seem to me that if the Bible wanted to make the case for salvation by works that it would have done so by using the word "salvation" instead of "justification." This is actually a kind of pitfall for those who believe in salvation by works. However, "justification" does not mean "salvation." Neither are they interchangable terms in the Bible.

Justification in the Bible means, "To exhibit righteousness." Therefore, given this meaning, the verses in James are saying that Abraham's works were exhibits of - a testimony of - his righteousness, which was out of faith. Abraham's faith was not dead (dormant) because his works were evident. Faith and works thus work in tandem with one another, as it should be. However, the lack of works in a Christian's life does not determine his salvation. In fact, the justification that God uses in determining our salvation is the work of Christ, as clearly evidenced by Romans 3:21-31.

You made the statement our salvation can be only by works or faith in Christ. Not so. James says differently. He makes it clear both are required. James 2:24 "Ye see then, how THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY."

Actually, I did not say that. I said that righteousness is only either through the keeping of the Law or it is through the keeping of Christ. However, again, you are equating justification with salvation. The Bible never does this at all, unless it is talking about being justified freely through the death of Christ.

You are right. The scripture in Hebrews doesn't say what the punishment is, but it is obvious that punishment is the lake of fire. You may argue different and even say it does not come out and say that but it also doesn't say the punishment is loss of rewards, which is what most of the Baptist persuation believe. You just claim that is the case because it agrees with your doctrinal position.

And wouldn't you say that your presumption here, that "punishment" means, "the lake of fire" is also because it agrees with your doctrinal position? In fact, I would think that it is more reasonable to take the Bible at face-value rather than making a presumption of what it means, or causing it to say what it does not.

Where I addressed Christ leaving I said the believer first leaves Jesus. Because of that, that man or woman is no longer a believer so when Jesus leaves he is not leaving or forsaking a Christian. He is departing from a non-Christian.

There are a lot of serious problems with this kind of thought, and really you're just trying to reason to yourself apart from the guidance of the Bible. It would be convenient for the Lord to leave a "former Christian" because he's not longer a Christian, as you say, but that implies certain things that are not characteristic of an eternally loving and willingly sacrificial Lord and Savior.

Secondly, it places the "former Christian" in somewhat of a pickle. The Lord Jesus only died once upon the cross - He only sacrificed Himself once for the sins of the world. Were it possible for a Christian to become "unsaved" and exist in such a state that the Lord is no longer with him, then it would be necessary for a person to "re-receive" the Lord's salvation each and every time he falls. And each time that he "re-receives" the Lord, it would be as if the Lord were crucified all over again each time. The Scriptures are very clear that this kind of action is not only unnecessary, it is actually prohibited. Read Hebrews 6:1-6.

In the case of the person put out of the Corinthian Church, it is true that it doesn't say he lost his salvation, but neither does it say he has not.

He is put out of the church and turned over to Satan for the destruction of the body, in the hope he will repent before he dies and become saved again. It makes no guarantee he will simply die a premature death and go to heaven with spot on his garment. Paul is telling the church it is not showing him love to overlook his transgressions and allow him to continue on in good fellowship. Don't be tollerant of such an offense. He was also concerned about his bad behavior corrupting the rest of the church.

Your analysis of the verses are correct, however, verse 5 does speak of salvation. There is no ambiguity as to whether the person will or will not be saved. It says, "...that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." The phrase "may be" is in the sense of facilitating, like if I were to say "I'm going to buy tickets to the theater so that I may be able to watch tonight's play." So there is no questioning like, "Well, we'll put him out and maybe he'll repent." Whether or not he repents is between him and the Lord. The point is, as you said, to not tolerate the sin in the church and not to approve it for the sake of "loving the brothers."

You say you don't believe a Christian can really depart from the faith.

No. I didn't. I wrote that a believer cannot truly depart from Christ. They can, however, be absolutely deceived by the enemy to believe that they are no longer part of the fold.

I was listening to Coast to Coast AM one night and their guest was a woman named Patsy. She testified she was once a born again Christian and active in church. She had since renounced the faith, changed her name to Harlot and now serves the devil. She has become a full blown Satanist and is a practicing witch. She did leave Christ. He did not leave her and I do not believe he has any obligation to remain with such a person. She went so far as to say she looks forward to the time when Jesus tells her to depart from him, as she now hates God.

You can continue to believe what you want, but such a person will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Well, I feel truly sorry for that woman. She may be deceived beyond recovery. I pray that such a person realizes the mistake that they have made and returns once again to the Father. However, if such a one dies in this state I believe that they will receive a severe punishment, but ultimately if she genuinely received the life of God, if she was genuinely saved, then ultimately she will inherit eternity.

[Scarletprayers]

Excellent post Ovedya and thank you, you helped me clear up some fuzzy thinking I was having lately!