Salvation...Can it be lost???

[sail2awe]

Evangelism is to make all men see.

It is not written that some were predestined for loss, rather the outworking and plan of the ages is that none is lost, that every tongue shall...every knee shall...whether in heaven or in earth...none is lost but the son of perdition:

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdom

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Again, Hebrews is written to believers, Salvation is not in view, they are being urged to continue onto perfection, to go on to receive reward, to not draw back.

They are told that once ws the sacrifice made for all. and the contrast is met by the words which the Jewish mind would well understand that if once this truth of the blood of Christ is made known, that those who would preferr goats blood which cannot save unto Salvation to that of Chirst,then there is no more sacrifice. This then is the sin in which sinning willfully speaks of, drawing back unto the law, but the speach is the practical aspects of what the doctrine had set forth. The practice is one of continuing on, not to draw back.

they are told of:

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection

It is declared early on who these were and the subject never changed:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost

These then, are believers, having already been enlightened unto their salvation, they are to:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection <maturity>; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

These Hebrews, it must be impressed upon our minds, lived during the Acts, when the kingdom could be realized IF Israel as a nation would turn from their ways, and receive their king and Lord who is Christ, and these here are believers wherein a reward is in view:

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward.

These had been, like Paul, followed around,

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

So this is written that they may stand fast, and go on, to keep on keeping on, they are told you have come so far, keep going on, reach the goal and receive the reward of better things of a more enduring substance, &c. &c.

[Remnantrob]

Replying to Salvation...Can it be lost???

Yes it can. the bible cousels us to work out our salvation(through God of course). Remember Judgement begins at the house of God, so if you're in his house Keep working it out. God bless.

[RGR]

Replying to Salvation...Can it be lost???

Yes it can. the bible cousels us to work out our salvation(through God of course). Remember Judgement begins at the house of God, so if you're in his house Keep working it out. God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed 115%!

[sail2awe]

Yes it can.

So God, who is Love Itself, full of Mercy and Grace, sets this redemptive plan of the ages in motion is going to just wipe out, say, the 2nd century peoples from New Zealand who never had the oportunity to ever hear of His infinite wisdom and the power of His resurrection?

To put it another way, who is it that will be fed at the Lord's table in that great time of teaching when Israel's overcoming faithful are reigning with Chirst as priests?

the bible cousels us to work out our salvation

Please give detail in how I might achieve this? When we read Salvation is a 'free gift', what do those words mean to you? wherein we find 'sin is not imputed', and that Christ came 'to save sinners', is that all sinners except for certain ones or that He is not imputing their tresspasses to them except for ????

Which sinners is the Lord not going to save exactly? I had this crazy idea that all fall short of the glory of God, is that me just being confused?

Remember Judgement begins at the house of God

Could you explain what the judgment entails, we must have a terribly different set of verses to which we referr.

Thank you in advance for the workload I have asked for.

Agape

Edited August 10, 2005 by sail2awe

[Remnantrob]

So God, who is Love Itself, full of Mercy and Grace, sets this redemptive plan of the ages in motion is going to just wipe out, say, the 2nd century peoples from New Zealand who never had the oportunity to ever hear of His infinite wisdom and the power of His resurrection?

To put it another way, who is it that will be fed at the Lord's table in that great time of teaching when Israel's overcoming faithful are reigning with Chirst as priests?

No, don't get scared ppl of New Zealand. Your ancestors should be okay if they found out about the saving grace of Jesus. I'm sure that they've heard about him and if they did they either accepted it or rejected it. yup its a gift and you gotta take it from him with each blessing he gives you by waking you up every morning. A believer and a disciple are two different things. A believer who isn't a disciple will not enter the kingdom for a couple of reasons. John 8:30-34 says

30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin

Now who are Jesus' real disciples? What does Jesus say his disciples will know? In order to hold to his teachings which are "the truth" what must we do? I like what the word tells us in chapter 12:44-48

44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

the last two verses are what i focused on last night. Christ came to save not condemn. But if you say you accept him and you reject his words then you are a liar and the word of God that you reject will be the very thing that condemns you at the last day. If you're not holding to truth and making that which you have possession of take possession of you then there is a possibility that your free will will reject the sacrifice that is Christ Jesus. maybe not boldly but it will happen when He returns and you try to claim Lord, Lord...

Please give detail in how I might achieve this? How do I undo the 'free gift', and how do I annul Christ's work wherein we find 'sin is not imputed'?

Allow the mind of Christ to be in you and all things are possible, especially overcoming iniquity. The Bereans were noble because they examine the scriptures everday and were eager about it. You can't keep taking on and off your Christianity to suit your convenience no matter how Gracious and Merciful God is. Learn from the Bereans(Acts 17:10-11)

Could you explain what the judgment entails, we must have a terribly different set of verses to which we referr.

I've tried to in another thread explain this judgement but it is the believe of my church and seen as heretical to some on these boards. If you like to contribute and share more on the judgement just go to prophecy and click on 2300 days.

[sail2awe]

you didn't answer any of my questions, but I will ask one more nevertheless:

What I hear you say, is that in your opinion everyone in 2nd centery New Zealand who have never heard of the true God, has heard and are saved, is that right?

Well, my Bible says that God came to save sinners, that if the gospel is hid to me, it is hid by the god of this world, who is His enemy, and that the great God and our Savior Christ Jesus is the author and the finisher of my faith, that I am in His arms and no one can pluck me out, in the Father's arms and no one can pluck me out, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, that sin is not imputed, and on and on and on the verses read...

But you disagree, and state that it is all up to me to save myself. Wow. I am really glad we are reading different Bibles, as it gives me a great opportunity to offer you to give mine a good study. In mine, the God is love, Salvation is a free gift, not of works. But there is more in mine, as there is even a reward which is above and beyond the Salvation of God. Only one is named in all of the Scripture to literally perish. You'll love it, and never need to live in fear that you will sin again today and lose the free gift of the Salvation of God. Because, if you are honest, you will know already that you will sin many times again today, just like everyone else, so it is great comfort that in my Bible, Christ came to save the whole world, and where sin abounds, MUCH MORE does the grace of God.

I read the KJV.

Edited August 10, 2005 by sail2awe

[Pilgrim7]

All this talk about education and commentaries of wise men as though Salvation was an intellectual exercise, a cosmic debate. I guess that we have forgotten who it was who rejected Jesus. It was the His church, the one He started. It was the church leaders. It was the Pastors (Rabbis). It was the teachers of the Law (theologians). Yes their educated men wrote commentaries, the Mishna and Gemarra, and it only helped them to reject their Messiah. By the time they finished twisting and explaining the Scriptures, God in the Flesh came face to face with them and they knew Him not. Oh , that couldn't happen to us, what presumption.

MAT 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth

the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (No Greek needed to have the Father revealed to you)

11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give rest.

1COR 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this

world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not

God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.............

1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound

the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to

confound the things which are mighty;

You must become like a little child to enter into the Kingdom, they understand the simplicity of the Gospel because the Holy Spirit leads them. Thjey receive the wisdom of God. Unless you become like a little child, you will never enter the kingdom.

Dennis

[Remnantrob]

you didn't answer any of my questions, but I will ask one more nevertheless:

Sorry if i didn't although i thought i did.

What I hear you say, is that in your opinion everyone in 2nd centery New Zealand who have never heard of the true God, has heard and are saved, is that right?

I said something to the tune of faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God so if they heard then they had to make a choice. If they rejected you know the result and if they accepted then you also know. I believe God will judge based on the light of the word of God that was given to you. Even an uncivilized person knows some form of right and wrong by the grace of God and that's what I believe they will be judged on.

But you disagree, and state that it is all up to me to save myself

Obviously your blind or just don't want to see what I wrote because you even quoted that I said:

Yes it can. the bible cousels us to work out our salvation(through God of course)

Next time read and reread before you accuse me of something, thank ya

I'm guilty of that sometimes so i understand.

I am really glad we are reading different Bibles, as it gives me a great opportunity to offer you to give mine a good study. In mine, the God is love, Salvation is a free gift, not of works. But there is more in mine, as there is even a reward which is above and beyond the Salvation of God. Only one is named in all of the Scripture to literally perish. You'll love it, and never need to live in fear that you will sin again today and lose the free gift of the Salvation of God. Because, if you are honest, you will know already that you will sin many times again today, just like everyone else, so it is great comfort that in my Bible, Christ came to save the whole world, and where sin abounds, MUCH MORE does the grace of God. I read the KJV.

I read the same KJV you do bro/sis I just decided to quote those scriptures in NIV because i wanted to and that's the version me and some friends used last night.

God continue to bless you in your study.

[Joy in the Journey]

Would someone answer me a question please ? Over and over here I keep seeing people putting restrictions on salvation. Legalistic attachments that must be met before one can be save and then even more legalistic attachments to Christ's work that must be met in order to be saved. People, the Message of Jesus is clear cut and simple- why confuse a simple concept ? Jesus died for everyone, He offers it freely and with no hidden agendas, no loopholes, no fine print and no restrictions...goodness, He not a used car salesman, He's JESUS- our Saviour. He made it easy on purpose- because we are stupid & lost. I am totally at a loss as to why some try to make the Bible more than what it is. The Gospels are called "Gospels" for a reason- because they present GOOD NEWS! Not long, drawn out legalistic rules and regulations that not one of you here will ever be able to live up to regardless of what you may think. Good thing for you that you aren't judged by your own rules

God bless,

Tim

P.S. I'm not advocating living in sin so grace may abound- don't even go there

[sail2awe]

Tim,

I will tell it why it is of these legalists nature. the key word is nature, and it is the fallen nature which says it is not a fallen nature, it is the fallen nature which says i must have some control over the matter. no amount of words can enlighten the fallen nature, only the captain of our Salvation is able to change such an one into another man.

the whole concept of i am a saved and born again Christian who does not believe what is plainly written reaks of the fallen nature which is natural to all men. being in this fallen nature it is impossible to fully grok that this flesh will not ever find life in and of itself. it is the quickened nature which submits in continual yeilding to the fact that of myself, i can do nothing, i am low, i am less than the least, i am fallen, i am not in control and i need help, the help of the only one who is not fallen who is verily life itself

flesh is flesh but those who worship Him MUST worship in the spirit of truth

i cannot save myself, for i have no power

i cannot undo the finished work of Christ, for i have no power

i cannot comprehend

i cannot but seek the Lord's understaning and it is the Lord who said, 'I am the good shepherd,I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.'

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

But the believers do not acknowledge these plainly spoken truths, rather the man in the pulpit of whom they can see, and hear, and touch, who teaches portions of God's word as a great orator, but never themselves weaned from the milk and unable to take or teach strong meat.

using the Bible to discredit the very word of God is very upsetting to me, but the problem truly lies in the fact that this Book is long in the making, and volumous. this being so, the microscope view should not be the first view, rather, it is best to get the overall plan of the ages afixed in the mind, then see where the peices fit. but being the redemptive plan of the ages being in view, it is the bits and peices which are seen and only those which the great orator of the pulpit of public worship are retained while the outside edges which hold this temporary heaven together and in one place and time are altogether withheld and therefore go unseen. it is like looking at another planet with a microscope and telling others what is the whole truth of that planet, never considering that there is ever yet more entailed, never stepping way back in consideration of every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God to which all the peices fittly join together to make all men see what is the height and the depth and the length and the breadth of measure of the stature of the Christ

1Ti 1:19

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Edited August 10, 2005 by sail2awe