Was it law that people died for their own sin?

[Open7]

Was it a law that people died for their own sin?

I figure that it wasn’t, because Jesus died for the sins of others.

The reason I am asking is because when David sinned for taking the census, 70,000 men were killed by the angel of the lord. Also, David’s son died because of David’s sin.

In 1 Chronicles 21:17 David questions God why they 70,000 had to die and not him.

Can anyone help me on this?

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom @Open7

Great question. 

People do indeed die for their own sins. But the method in which they die can be related to another person's sin. 

In ancient Israel the Kings had the authority over the people and Yahweh dealt with the people through the Kings. The Kings were the nations covering and leader, much as our Messiah is over us. 

When the Kings sinned, the sinners of the people suffered as consequence and the righteous survived, which seems pretty well evidenced throughout the Scriptures. But those layman sinners may have suffered in a different way, had the King been righteous. 

Do you see what I'm saying? Both the sin of the King AND the sin of the layman is judged and executed upon together.

It is as if the layman sinner is "marked for death" and when the judgement comes because of a sinful king, they have no protection during the wrath. But the righteous do. 

Now as for David on this issue, he actually asked for this form of punishment. Yahweh presented him with three options of punishment and David chose this method. Understandably, David then saw the horror and the error of his ways and repented for it.

Interestingly, this led to the founding of the site for the Temple of Yahweh. 

I hope that helps you see things in a different light. 

Love & Shalom 

[Justin Adams]

It is a horrible and needless 'doctrine' that we inherit Adam's sin and death. Sure, we inherit death, but the horrific church dogma of original sin is absolutely wrong. We answer for our own sins and that is it.
We are born sinless, but with the nature we have, we WILL sin. Remember that the doctrine of original sin was espoused by Augustine, Calvin and a whole slew of folk that wanted to control their 'flock' by preaching indulgences and constant guilt trips from the pulpit to keep them in submission.

Many have fallen away and lost faith when their pastor said their young child was in hell. Absolutely horrific idea. From the PIT.

Yeshua died for three main reasons: Gen 3, Gen 6 and Gen 11 (deut 32 and psalm 82).
He died to set a fractured creation to rights; Save mankind; Reverse the watcher's travesty and remove the authority from the spirits over the nations and regathering those that were scattered at Babel under the auspices of those territorial spirits that failed miserably.

IT IS FINISHED.

ALL has been put under the feet of our Lord. It is an old allusion to the practise in the distant past of putting your foot on the neck of your enemy thereby demonstrating complete victory.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Eddy Crocker]

2 hours ago, Open7 said:

Was it a law that people died for their own sin?

I figure that it wasn’t, because Jesus died for the sins of others.

The reason I am asking is because when David sinned for taking the census, 70,000 men were killed by the angel of the lord. Also, David’s son died because of David’s sin.

In 1 Chronicles 21:17 David questions God why they 70,000 had to die and not him.

Can anyone help me on this?

 

Back in the Old Testament there was a generational curse going on because we were from that one cursed seed of the first Adam. 

Exodus 34:7 

⁷ Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Dueteronomy 5:9,

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Numbers 14:18,

The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Psalms 109:14,

Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

This is how it was in the Old Testament. It was all about a generational curse being passed on from generation to generation. But the next verse I quote is going to show you a prophecy of how there’s going to be a change in the New Testament.

 

Jeremiah 31:29-34

²⁹ In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

³⁰ But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

³¹ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

³² Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

³⁴ And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is the change that happens in the New Testament. No more Generational curse being passed on. The law now will become spirit law on our hearts and minds by and through the Holy Spirit.
That law Will not have to be told physically for all will know what’s right and wrong according to their conscience. This is how we will be accountable unto our own hearts and minds unto God. This will be how we are judged.

[Behold]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

It is a horrible and needless 'doctrine' that we inherit Adam's sin and death. Sure, we inherit death, but the horrific church dogma of original sin is absolutely wrong. We answer for our own sins and that is it.
We are born sinless,

Actually , Jesus who is the 2nd Adam, had to restore the "world" back into the position of the 1st Adam, as from Adam's disobedience we all find ourselves born with a problem.  

= Romans 5:17

"by the transgression of Adam, we are made sinners", " and by (through) the righteousness of Jesus....the 2nd Adam, we are restored to God's Righteousness".

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Behold

[Deborah_]

There was a law that people shouldn't be put to death for the sins of other members of their family (Deuteronomy 24:16). This was to avoid generating and perpetuating family feuds.

But in general, there are lots of reasons why people may suffer because of the sins of others. If someone commits murder or theft, who suffers? The innocent victim, of course. If one country declares war against another, thousands of people are likely to die as a result - but not because of their own sins. Sinful behaviour habits tend to get transmitted down the generations, too.

Now Jesus died not for His own sins, but for the sins of others. But God wasn't breaking the Law by punishing Him unjustly because that was the Son's choice - He was a volunteer. 

The death of David's son was, I think, prophetic. David was not put to death for his sins (even though he deserved death twice over, for adultery and murder); but the innocent son of David died in his place, representing the innocent Son of David who would die to atone for those sins a thousand years later. 

 

[Justin Adams]

51 minutes ago, Behold said:

"by the transgression of Adam, we are made sinners",

6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.…

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.…

Says NOTHING about inheriting original sin. NOTHING. It is a horrible and WRONG reading to say our babies are born sinners. It is a DESPICABLE dogma!! The RCC perpetuated it for control and then INVENTED a sinless Mary doctrine. The so-called reformers did not do much better. That's why the infant 'baptism' and all kinds of silly ideas. The HEART of God is NOT to kill babies. Yes, the heart of man is wicked, and it is a learned wickedness due to his nature and environment, but he was NOT born with Adam's Guilt, just Adam's mortality.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Behold]

17 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

…Says NOTHING about inheriting original sin. 

You quoted it yourself.....

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man,"""

JA, what is THE Trespass........?

Who is....THE ONE MAN...?

 

[Justin Adams]

Berean Literal Bible
For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one, how much more will those receiving the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ!

This talks about our inherited DEATH. Not inherited guilt. It is a wicked doctrine of devils to say Adam's guilt passed to us. There are hundreds of scripture verses that say we are NOT born with Adam's guilt, but have to answer for our own misdeeds, not his or anyone else's - just our own.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Eddy Crocker]

10 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.…

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.…

Says NOTHING about inheriting original sin. NOTHING. It is a horrible and WRONG reading to say our babies are born sinners. It is a DESPICABLE dogma!! The RCC perpetuated it for control and then INVENTED a sinless Mary doctrine. The so-called reformers did not do much better. That's why the infant 'baptism' and all kinds of silly ideas. The HEART of God is NOT to kill babies. Yes, the heart of man is wicked, and it is a learned wickedness due to his nature and environment, but he was NOT born with Adam's Guilt, just Adam's mortality.

Yes I agree Justin. Babies may have inherited that curse. But a baby can’t manifest actual sin until they are fully aware of their actions. The curse is simply the effects or iniquity of the first Adams sin.

This is why our physical bodies die and get sick. Infant baptism is not needed in the state of innocence and no actual sin committed until they become fully aware of their actions.