enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,523 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Just now, LuftWaffle said: I'm sorry but you cannot simply impose the context of the rich man and Lazarus onto 2Pe 2:6 while throwing around words like context and hermeneutic in an attempt to appear knowledgable. Your initial statement was that nowhere scripture teaches extinction of the wicked. I have offered 2Pe 2:6 which specifically uses the word extinction in relation to what will happen to the unsaved, from the example of the cities destruction through fire. It seems what you're doing now is to try and reinterpret the context of 2Pe to conform with your view, but when I asked you what exegetical warrant you have for doing it, you're simply saying what amounts to, "2Pe is about Sheol because....context and hermeutics". In other words hand-waiving. Just because you can say the words 'context, exegesis and hermeutics' doesn't mean you get to make assertions about the text without offering justification. as I did not bring in the 2 Pet 2:6 it could not have been in my argument and the continuing confusion leads to no further discussion on my part ... thanks good day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, enoob57 said: The text is merely speaking of the cities and truly they are not found... but to the death that occured within those cities to that we have to go elsewhere in the Scripture and clearly that is addressed in Lazarus... No, the text is saying that what happened to the cities, namely condemnation to extinction serves as an example of what awaits the unsaved. If you want to make it about what happened to inhabitants of those cities in Sheol, then what is you exegetical justification for doing so, since the text doesn't make that leap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,523 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 As to the overall aspect of this topic one must evaluate image and that which it is based upon... as we are imaged after God then the need answer would be 'How long will God last'... annihilist will not treat this Scriptural reality because it does not suit their points... but Scripture must be reasoned as God has said Isa 1:18 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, enoob57 said: unless you can accurately address my points it is not debate but you an your agenda of what you believe... many people do this but it becomes my responsibility to God to leave the discussion- for it is no longer about His Word and correctly reflecting that but other... It's your choice if you want to leave the discussion or not. Quote this needs to be addressed by you this is simple agree or disagree and why In the case of the Imago Dei, I've answered what I assumed your argument was and asked for clarification of what you're on about. If you're not willing to do that, then I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do. In terms of 2Pe 2:6 you made the assertion that somehow Peter is talking about Sheol, but offered no justification for this, and you've completely ignored what the verse says, namely that the extinction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what will happen to the unsaved, this after you stated that the bible doesn't teach extinction of the wicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, enoob57 said: As to the overall aspect of this topic one must evaluate image and that which it is based upon... as we are imaged after God then the need answer would be 'How long will God last'... annihilist will not treat this Scriptural reality because it does not suit their points... but Scripture must be reasoned as God has said Isa 1:18 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. KJV No, I have answered that you cannot simple say "because God is immortal doesn't mean man is immortal because Imago Dei" The contention of this discussion is eternal torment or eternal death. My stance is that the unsaved will be executed, and I have as yet seen no evidence to show that the unsaved will live forever (i.e. immortality) in torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.53 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, LuftWaffle said: Gehenna refers to the Valley of the sons of Hinnom which Jeremiah describes will become a 'valley of slaughter'. "So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room." - Jer 7:32 There is no scriptural evidence that Jesus was referring to fires that couldn't consume rubbish when he referred to Gehenna. This is pure speculation on the part of some theologians. The problem with the idea that people continually sin in hell, poses a huge problem for those holding to eternal conscious torment because it argues that God's justice will never be satisfied and that a God who abhors sin, somehow allows it to continue forever. To quench a fire is to put it out before it has consumed what it burns. To quench a fire is to put it out before it burns out. In Jewish tradition it was considered shameful for a corpse to be consumed and not given a proper burial. All the verses referring to fires not being quenched, maggots not dying before they've consumed the body. Birds not being frightened away before they've consumed a body (see below) and even a body 'seeing' corruption all refer to shameful death and destruction. "Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away." "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind" - Isa 66:24 See Isa 66:24 above. It's definitely referring to dead bodies Easton's Bible Dictionary Gehenna (originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Gehenna "In the New Testament (King James Version margin) Gehenna occurs in Matt 5:22; Matt 5:29; Matt 5:30; Matt 10:28; Matt 18:9; Matt 23:15; Matt 23:33; Mark 9:43; Mark 9:15; Mark 9:47; Luke 12:5; Jas 3:6. In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked, generally in connection with the final judgment. It is associated with fire as the source of torment. Both body and soul are cast into it. This is not to be explained on the principle that the New Testament speaks metaphorically of the state after death in terms of the body; it presupposes the resurrection. In the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Gehenna is rendered by "hell" (see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT). That "the valley of Hinnom" became the technical designation for the place of final punishment was due to two causes. In the first place the valley had been the seat of the idolatrous worship of Molech, to whom children were immolated by fire (2Chr 28:3; 2Chr 33:6). Secondly, on account of these practices the place was defiled by King Josiah (2Ki 23:10), and became in consequence associated in prophecy with the judgment to be visited upon the people (Jer 7:32). The fact, also, that the city's offal was collected there may have helped to render the name synonymous with extreme defilement. Topographically the identification of the valley of Hinnom is still uncertain. It has been in turn identified with the depression on the western and southern side of Jerusalem, with the middle valley, and with the valley to the E." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, David1701 said: Easton's Bible Dictionary Gehenna (originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Gehenna "In the New Testament (King James Version margin) Gehenna occurs in Matt 5:22; Matt 5:29; Matt 5:30; Matt 10:28; Matt 18:9; Matt 23:15; Matt 23:33; Mark 9:43; Mark 9:15; Mark 9:47; Luke 12:5; Jas 3:6. In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked, generally in connection with the final judgment. It is associated with fire as the source of torment. Both body and soul are cast into it. This is not to be explained on the principle that the New Testament speaks metaphorically of the state after death in terms of the body; it presupposes the resurrection. In the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Gehenna is rendered by "hell" (see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT). That "the valley of Hinnom" became the technical designation for the place of final punishment was due to two causes. In the first place the valley had been the seat of the idolatrous worship of Molech, to whom children were immolated by fire (2Chr 28:3; 2Chr 33:6). Secondly, on account of these practices the place was defiled by King Josiah (2Ki 23:10), and became in consequence associated in prophecy with the judgment to be visited upon the people (Jer 7:32). The fact, also, that the city's offal was collected there may have helped to render the name synonymous with extreme defilement. Topographically the identification of the valley of Hinnom is still uncertain. It has been in turn identified with the depression on the western and southern side of Jerusalem, with the middle valley, and with the valley to the E." No sure what your point is? I've stated that there is no scriptural basis for the idea that what Jesus was referring to was the fires' in Gehenna's duration and not the dead bodies, but that some theologians speculated that. Obviously the theologian who wrote the commentary above is one of those speculating that the fires refer to eternal torment. Are we discussing what the Bible teaches or what theologians teach, because I'm happy to concede that many theologians teach eternal conscious torment. I just happen to think they're wrong. Edited July 13, 2020 by LuftWaffle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,523 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said: No, I have answered that you cannot simple say "because God is immortal doesn't mean man is immortal because Imago Dei" The contention of this discussion is eternal torment or eternal death. My stance is that the unsaved will be executed, and I have as yet seen no evidence to show that the unsaved will live forever (i.e. immortality) in torment. Out of respect I will answer you one more time but you have already made claims that were not so in my statements which means this is not an honest debate. You made the claim that I addressed your verse 2Pet 2 6 as clearly this shows... I did not address it! Now to your point above there are many many places in Scripture to where we are lead to a certain place and can go no further... this existence takes us to a certain point and there we must stand... point one: God created us in His Image thus what ever we are it is totally dependent upon imager to be whatever that reflects and to say it ceases would be an inaccurate image in Word... Point two: We know the unsaved extend beyond this presence here to sheol and await final judgment called the second death... death has always indicated separation from God... you say cessation of existence and I say it is better to wait where the Word allows me and that is eternal torment ... thanks for the discussion although it was more an agenda on your part to be correct and right and not so much 'Thus Saith The Lord'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Out of respect I will answer you one more time but you have already made claims that were not so in my statements which means this is not an honest debate. You made the claim that I addressed your verse 2Pet 2 6 No, YOU made the claim that I didn't address your claim that somehow 2Pe 2:6 is about Sheol. You said "This needs to be addressed by you". I responded that I did address it, because I asked you what exegetical warrant you have for making it about Sheol, when the verse simply states that Sodom and Gomorrah's extinction by fire serves as an example of what awaits the wicked. I totally agree that you didn't address the verse, because simply imposing another context onto the verse without any justification is just an awful way to read the bible. Ultimately you made the claim that the bible doesn't teach exinction of the wicked and I offered a verse that directly refutes that. Ignoring the extinction part you attempted to make the verse about what happened to the inhabitants after they died in Sheol, but the verse couldn't be clearer that the extinction of Sodom and Gomorah is the example, and not what you might imagine happened to them in Sheol. Quote Now to your point above there are many many places in Scripture to where we are lead to a certain place and can go no further... this existence takes us to a certain point and there we must stand... I have no idea what you're on about here. Quote point one: God created us in His Image thus what ever we are it is totally dependent upon imager to be whatever that reflects and to say it ceases would be an inaccurate image in Word... Scripture should dictate what attributes of God are shared by mankind under the term Imago Dei. As I said, you cannot simply pick an attribute that God has, and apply it to people using the Imago Dei as a kind of literary wildcard. Otherwise one can make all sorts of absurd claims using Imago Dei as the glue to hold bad arguments together, for instance: "People tell lies, therefore God tells lies, because man is made in God's image." See the problem? If you going to argue that Imago Dei means immortality, then we need to test that against scripture and there's a ton of scripture showing that God alone is immortal and that immortality is a gift given only to the saved. Quote Point two: We know the unsaved extend beyond this presence here to sheol and await final judgment called the second death... Yes, and the plain meaning of the words 'second death' should clue you in that we're talking here about the second time the unsaved will die, this time permanently. Quote death has always indicated separation from God... Nope, this idea seems to have originated with Platonism and became part of mainstream Christianity through Tertullian and Augustine who incorporated Plato's idea into mainstream Christianity in the 5th century. There is no scriptural evidence to suggest that death means 'separation from God'. "And they are right, Simmias, in saying this, with the exception of the words “They have found them out”; for they have not found out what is the nature of this death which the true philosopher desires, or how he deserves or desires death. But let us leave them and have a word with ourselves: Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? To be sure, replied Simmias. And is this anything but the separation of soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation when the soul exists in herself, and is parted from the body and the body is parted from the soul—that is death?" - Plato's Phaeo 61-64 (http://www.bartleby.com/2/1/31.html) As to Augustines fondness of Plato: “The utterance of Plato, the most pure and bright in all philosophy, scattering the clouds of error . . .” - Augustine of Hippo Tertullian on Plato: "One may no doubt be wise in the things of God, even from one’s natural powers, but only in witness to the truth, not in maintenance of error; (only) when one acts in accordance with, not in opposition to, the divine dispensation. For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance , is held by many; the knowledge of our God is possessed by all. I may use, therefore, the opinion of a Plato, when he declares, ' Every soul is immortal'" There is simply no scriptural justification to replace the words, death, desctruction, perishing, ashes to ashes, returning to dust, corpses, slaughter, extinction etc. wherever they're encountered in scripture with Plato's separationist definition of death. Quote you say cessation of existence Nope, I have never argued 'cessation of existence'. My contention is that the unsaved will be executed, in other words cessation of life. Whether their corpses exist after judgement is immaterial to me. To me the issue is whether the unsaved live forever in torment, or whether they are executed. Quote and I say it is better to wait where the Word allows me and that is eternal torment ... yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that I believe the bible teaches that the unsaved are executed. The wages of sin is death. Edited July 13, 2020 by LuftWaffle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted July 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2020 18 hours ago, LuftWaffle said: As an annihilationist I believe the unsaved will ultimately be executed. Can you really say that there are no scriptures that support this contention? The Bible is full of references to the unsaved being slain, killed, destroyed, perishing, etc. Surely if we take those according to their plain meaning then they would all support the case for the unsaved being executed rather than living forever in torment. As scripture is laid out, there are arguments for both sides. You can find whatever you want to support your personal belief, which is why I don't really take a solid- unmovable stance on the subject. I would like to believe they just cease to exist, but too many scriptures state differently. Sure, I could say - that's not what it really means - but would I not be placing my personal beliefs above scripture by making such a claim when bother sides are supported? We will just have to wait and see, won't we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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