How many resurrections are there?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, TMarcum said:

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is when he will bring his kingdom with him, at the time that he sits on the throne of his glory, which is the throne of judgement. He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 

This is how we that have been redeemed are gathered, to be placed naturally in the kingdom. It is done through the resurrection. This is when Jesus comes back for his bride (19:7-9). 

Next the GWT of judgement. Then heavens and earth will pass away and new Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven.

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
 

Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Yeshua` WILL "deliver His Kingdom to God" at His return! This is easy for him to do since he does yet HAVE His Kingdom with him! 

There is no 2nd resurrection written in the text. There is no 1000 years reign on earth, after Jesus returns. The period of his reign is for eternity. 

Since all the rest of the book of John was for their time and the age we are living in, does it not seem VERY out of place to place John 14:1-3 far out to the days of Rev. 21? Can you find ANYWHERE ELSE in the gospels that is speaks of a the time of the new heaven and new earth? 

I think you have missed it here big time. Yes, the homes built will certainly come down to earth, but we will have need of them LONG before that. First, for all who die in christ before the end, they are transported (spirit and soul) to heaven to wait out the time Jesus will descend for the rapture - pretrib and before God's wrath is poured out - I place that just before the 6th seal. 

Next, at the pretrib rapture we all get resurrection bodies are are all escorted to heaven to wait out God's time of wrath.  They we return WITH Him to Armageddon. But just before we all return to earth, the marriage and supper will take place in heaven. 

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There is no 2nd resurrection written in the text. 

Sorry, but there are TWO resurrections listed just in Rev. 20: one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  Let's count how many separate resurrections will be a part of that "first" or primary resurrection in Rev. 20:

1. Jesus was the first to take part in the resurrection for the righteous. "FIRSTfruits" gives us a STRONG HINT there will be more later).

2. The dead in Christ will be the second wave for this same resurrection.

3. It seems quite sure that the 144,000 will be resurrected too - since the second time John saw them they were in heaven.

4. It also seems quite sure that the Old Testament saints will be raised at the end of the 70th week, with the two witnesses and with those beheaded during the days of GT.

I count at least 3 waves of people resurrected just before and during the 70th week of Daniel.  All will take part in that "first" or primary resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20. 

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There is no 1000 years reign on earth 

 

Sorry, but there are too many verses telling us there WILL BE. You have to ignore them or make then symbolic. I won't do that. Ancient Jewish sages wrote that life on earth is patterned after creation: 6 days God labored and rested on the 7th. Therefore man will rule the earth for 6000 years, but God will rule for the 7th thousand. I think Rev. 20 makes it clear they had it right. 

HOWEVER - for you side of the argument: that reign of Christ for the 1000 years goes on forever. But after the 1000 there is a break for judgment: the great, white throne judgment. But just before that, a NEW heaven and earth. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by iamlamad

[TMarcum]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

 There are TIMING issues here. 

When He returns: WHICH return? Paul shows a coming before God's wrath begins on earth (At the 6th seal) 

Rev. 19 shows His return to Armageddon where the saints come WITH HIM - all riding on white horses. 

The Holy City will not descend EVER on this planet. Old earth and the heavens will disappear and God will create a NEW heaven and earth. Then, the Holy City will descend to the NEW earth. But that is after the 1000 year reign of Christ. 

 

  I was speaking of the time that they were dead before they were prayed back to their body.

Christ is the very first to be resurrected to a resurrection, flesh and bone body.  Paul taught that to be absent from our flesh and blood body is to be present with the Lord - IN HEAVEN. It is not a resurrection: it is just a place to be [spirit and soul] until the day of Resurrection. However, it is WONDERFUL and will be wonderful to all who wait until the resurrection day there. Many of the Old and New testament saints are there now waiting.  Yes, those that were prayed back to their body (from heaven) all died again, or will die again. 

 

Perhaps this is true. 

 

There are TIMING issues here. 

When He returns: WHICH return? Paul shows a coming before God's wrath begins on earth (At the 6th seal) 

 

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Paul spoke of the coming in several books, but in each place, he made it clear that the dead will be resurrected before hand and then those alive and remain will be caught up to meet then in the air.

I don't know of any place that Paul wrote of the Christ's return, that doesn't mention the resurrection 1st. I am not aware of place that it is mentioned of a coming, as early as the 6th seal.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Another place:

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And another place:

2 Thessalonians 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

 

Rev. 19 shows His return to Armageddon where the saints come WITH HIM - all riding on white horses. 

The Holy City will not descend EVER on this planet. Old earth and the heavens will disappear and God will create a NEW heaven and earth. Then, the Holy City will descend to the NEW earth. But that is after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

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Yes, you are right. But these that come with him in Rev 19 were saints already resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It gives a clear picture in (Rev 14:14-20).

This is the resurrection of the just and the unjust. There were 2 reapers, the first one reaping was the one who sat upon the cloud and he reaped the ripe harvest of the earth. So the earth was reaped. These were the saints. 

Another angle came out of the temple also having a sharp sickle and was with another angel that came out from the alter, having power over fire. He cried to the angel with the sickle to reap the clusters of the vine of the earth. These are the sinners. These were cast into the winepress of the wrath of God. 

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Then the next thing we see is the resurrected saints in heaven. Now I don't know if they were really in heaven or with Jesus in the air; I am not sure. But I do know they were not on earth with those wicked that were reaped. The saints were with Jesus.

Revelation 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

I do not believe that those that were alive and remain were changed yet. But I do know that the angel had the 7 last plagues of the wrath of God and is on his way to pour them out. I am pretty sure this was a short period of time that it took to pour out these 7 vials. But on the 7th vial, he said "it is done".

Rev 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

When you read the next two chapters (Rev 17 & Rev 18), these are a recapitulation of the destruction of Babylon in the 6th seal. Now this only took an hour. The whole world saw her destroyed in 1 day and in 1 hour.

Rev 18
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

It is now we get to Revelation 19. This is why the saints came down with the Lord (Rev 19:14) is because they were resurrected in chapter (Rev 14:16). I personally believe that the saints that were still alive and remained on earth were changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air when Jesus came down from heaven (Rev 19:11). But I am undecided at this point.

But all that is left are the wicked that are alive, with those that were resurrected in (Rev 14:19)

But the kings and nations were gathered to battle the Lord and this place is called Armageddon. You can read this where we left off last in the timeline in Rev 16:15.

What we know is they were destroyed in (Rev 19:18-21)

Rev 19
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since all the rest of the book of John was for their time and the age we are living in, does it not seem VERY out of place to place John 14:1-3 far out to the days of Rev. 21? Can you find ANYWHERE ELSE in the gospels that is speaks of a the time of the new heaven and new earth? 

I think you have missed it here big time. Yes, the homes built will certainly come down to earth, but we will have need of them LONG before that. First, for all who die in christ before the end, they are transported (spirit and soul) to heaven to wait out the time Jesus will descend for the rapture - pretrib and before God's wrath is poured out - I place that just before the 6th seal. 

Next, at the pretrib rapture we all get resurrection bodies are are all escorted to heaven to wait out God's time of wrath.  They we return WITH Him to Armageddon. But just before we all return to earth, the marriage and supper will take place in heaven. 

Sorry, but there are TWO resurrections listed just in Rev. 20: one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  Let's count how many separate resurrections will be a part of that "first" or primary resurrection in Rev. 20:

1. Jesus was the first to take part in the resurrection for the righteous. "FIRSTfruits" gives us a STRONG HINT there will be more later).

2. The dead in Christ will be the second wave for this same resurrection.

3. It seems quite sure that the 144,000 will be resurrected too - since the second time John saw them they were in heaven.

4. It also seems quite sure that the Old Testament saints will be raised at the end of the 70th week, with the two witnesses and with those beheaded during the days of GT.

I count at least 3 waves of people resurrected just before and during the 70th week of Daniel.  All will take part in that "first" or primary resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20. 

This is when he will bring his kingdom with him, at the time that he sits on the throne of his glory, which is the throne of judgement. He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 

This is how we that have been redeemed are gathered, to be placed naturally in the kingdom. It is done through the resurrection. This is when Jesus comes back for his bride (19:7-9). 

Next the GWT of judgement. Then heavens and earth will pass away and new Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven.

Quote

No, this is not true. Now look at it again. This passage started in John 13, and continued in John 14. There were no chapters or verses when John wrote the book, so we have to look at the context. Jesus was telling them in chapter 13 that he will soon be leaving them and that they could not follow him. Peter asked him, where are you going that I cannot follow?

Then Jesus said to them,  "Let not your heart be troubled:" "In my Father's house are many mansions:" "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,"

So yes, the topic of discussion is when Jesus is going away by being crucified. This is what he was referring to when he said, "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself."

This is where he is now. Preparing a place for his church. He will bring it back when he comes again. That's what he told Peter.

John 13
36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Sorry, but there are TWO resurrections listed just in Rev. 20: one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.  Let's count how many separate resurrections will be a part of that "first" or primary resurrection in Rev. 20:

1. Jesus was the first to take part in the resurrection for the righteous. "FIRSTfruits" gives us a STRONG HINT there will be more later).

2. The dead in Christ will be the second wave for this same resurrection.

3. It seems quite sure that the 144,000 will be resurrected too - since the second time John saw them they were in heaven.

4. It also seems quite sure that the Old Testament saints will be raised at the end of the 70th week, with the two witnesses and with those beheaded during the days of GT.

I count at least 3 waves of people resurrected just before and during the 70th week of Daniel.  All will take part in that "first" or primary resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20. 

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Yes, their will be more later; one more, and then comes the end.

When Paul said, "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." He was the 1st to be resurrected.

So the next resurrection are those that are his at his coming. "Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God"

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The 144,000 have already been redeemed when Christ rose from the dead. This is what John saw that they were redeemed by his blood. This is what is meant by their sealing. They were redeemed. To be redeemed does not mean collected. It means that they belong to Jesus. If you buy land, you make the purchase to redeem it, you own it, but may not occupy it until some time later.

But their body's are still in the graves with our own dead loved ones today. On the resurrection day, they will be resurrected at the same time all the rest of the saints are resurrected.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by TMarcum

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is all true: but it is also truth that the Bride of Christ will wait out the time of wrath on earth - IN HEAVEN.  We can't or shouldn't ignore one truth while teaching another. John 14 makes this clear, as well as Revelation 7 and Revelation 19. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

I know that's what you believe, but under close scrutiny and STICKING TO WHAT YESHUA` ACTUALLY SAID, John 14 doesn't say that at all! People make ASSUMPTIONS that just aren't valid. See, it all makes sense when one accepts the fact that the "soul" is the "air-breathing person." We don't "wait it out in Heaven," we wait it out in the GRAVE! But, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and believe that we go to Heaven when we die. Just know that you WON'T find that in the Bible. We're not to anticipate "going to Heaven" when we die; we're to anticipate the RESURRECTION!

Revelation 7:9-14 has contextual clues that show this to be a preview of the New Jerusalem upon the New Earth.

Revelation 19 is about the marriage supper of the Lamb and the great battle to come. There are extenuating circumstances that I'm not prepared to go into, but suffice it to say for now that we're already resurrected by this time. It's NOT talking about them coming from a PLACE called "Heaven"; it's talking about them coming from the sky (as in charging down a mountain).

 

[TMarcum]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Revelation 19 is about the marriage supper of the Lamb and the great battle to come. There are extenuating circumstances that I'm not prepared to go into, but suffice it to say for now that we're already resurrected by this time.

 

Do you believe the resurrection occurred in Rev 14?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I know that's what you believe, but under close scrutiny and STICKING TO WHAT YESHUA` ACTUALLY SAID, John 14 doesn't say that at all! People make ASSUMPTIONS that just aren't valid. See, it all makes sense when one accepts the fact that the "soul" is the "air-breathing person." We don't "wait it out in Heaven," we wait it out in the GRAVE! But, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and believe that we go to Heaven when we die. Just know that you WON'T find that in the Bible. We're not to anticipate "going to Heaven" when we die; we're to anticipate the RESURRECTION!

Revelation 7:9-14 has contextual clues that show this to be a preview of the New Jerusalem upon the New Earth.

Revelation 19 is about the marriage supper of the Lamb and the great battle to come. There are extenuating circumstances that I'm not prepared to go into, but suffice it to say for now that we're already resurrected by this time. It's NOT talking about them coming from a PLACE called "Heaven"; it's talking about them coming from the sky (as in charging down a mountain).

 

The idea that the soul is the whole person is made defunct in the New Testament. The spirit (life) WITH the soul, is the real person, and certainly exists outside of our physical body. But what makes up a "soul?"  It is the mind, will, emotions, memories and affections  - that for every human are different.  What you said makes little sense when we consider Paul's statement:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Wisdom then decrees that before we form doctrine from the Old Testament, we see what the New Testament has to say on it. We contact or commune with God with our spirit man or woman. We commune with people with our soul. 

 

Perhaps you are thinking like posttribbers think about John 14:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? How silly it would be for Jesus to go to heaven to prepare places (abodes, mansions) for us, and then forget them and come to earth.

No, the intent of the author is this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, BACK TO HEAVEN], there [IN HEAVEN] ye may be also.

To prove this, WHERE is Jesus in chapter 19? First He is IN HEAVEN at the marriage and supper. Then, and ONLY then, does He get on the white horse and return. In Revelation, the bride has been in heaven ever since Rev. 6 - a m0ment before wrath begins. And Jesus remains in heaven for the entire 70th week and then some time after.

we wait it out in the GRAVE!  Sorry, only our fleshly body waits in the grave. Why deny what Paul taught, that the moment we (our Spirit and soul) leave the body, we go to be with the Lord?  Why ignore the testimony of so many now that have died, gone to heaven, saw Jesus and many other things, but were prayed back to their body?  Since their testimonies agree with scripture, we should rejoice that we get to wait out God's wrath on earth in such a wonderful place. Look up Gary L Wood. He is such a man. I have heard his testimony over and over. There are many others; not just a few.  

Just know that you WON'T find that in the Bible.   Sorry, but this is myth. Why would you teach myth here when you are right on in other scriptures?

2 Corinthians 5:6

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

In case you wonder about the translation:

King James Version
5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Bible in Basic English
5:8 We are without fear, desiring to be free from the body, and to be with the Lord.

Darby's English Translation
5:8 we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Douay Rheims
5:8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Noah Webster Bible
5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
5:8 So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible  5:8 We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation:  5:8 we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Then there is Phil chapter 1.

²¹ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

²² But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

²³ For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

²⁴ Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

There can be no doubt as to Paul's meaning in either of these passages: when a born again person dies, they go to be with Jesus. 

See? All this  time it is been in the Bible, but your preconceptions have prevented you from seeing it. 

Revelation 7:9-14 has contextual clues that show this to be a preview of the New Jerusalem upon the New Earth.  Now I know you have no idea what John is doing in chapter 7.  Have you ever been to play where they close to curtain between acts of the play? What happens behind the curtain? they are rearranging the set to fit the next act. That is EXACTLY what John is doing here. He marches the reader right through seals, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 without a break. But John CANNOT get to seal 7 that officially opens the 70th week until two very important events happen: first, the 144,000 MUST be seals for their protection from the trumpet judgments.

Second, the CHURCH must be seen safely in heaven before God's wrath is poured out in the trumpets.  So John takes a short intermission and shows us the sealing and the church seen in heaven. Don't be led astray by John saying these came out of GT: His meaning is, God is calling the entire church age as great tribulation.  They came out of the world one by one as each was born again, and entered the church age of great tribulation - because the world hated Jesus so they hate anyone born again.  Note carefully John has not even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half where the days of GT will begin and take place. 

It seems I am always going to disagree with you in these areas. Stop and think: where in THIS world would God get billions of white horses? (The Old Testament saints resurrected, PLUS the Dead in Christ resurrected, PLUS those alive and in Christ changed, PLUS a billion or two children: all these will be in heaven at this time.)

Sorry, but these are coming FROM HEAVEN. That is where Jesus will be at the marriage. 

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, TMarcum said:

This is when he will bring his kingdom with him, at the time that he sits on the throne of his glory, which is the throne of judgement. He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 

This is how we that have been redeemed are gathered, to be placed naturally in the kingdom. It is done through the resurrection. This is when Jesus comes back for his bride (19:7-9). 

Next the GWT of judgement. Then heavens and earth will pass away and new Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven.

Let's just follow John's Chronology rather than myth or human imagination: shall we?

Paul shows us a coming ONLY to the air, to call up the saints. WHEN? Paul tells us  just before God's wrath begins. In other words, Rapture/wrath, with no time between.  (1 Thes. 4 & 5)

Then comes the Day of the Lord and the start of Wrath (6th seal).

Then comes the 70th week, marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

Then comes the events of Rev. 17 and 18. 

Then comes Rev. 19 with the Marriage and  supper.

Finally, after all this, Jesus comes to earth WITH His  saints. (Rev. 19)

Then will come the parable of the Tares, and the judgment of the nations: the sheep and goats: to choose WHO will  enter the Kingdom.

Then Jesus will rule with the saints for the thousand year reign of Christ. (REv. 20)

After that Satan is loosed for a season and then fire destroys all those coming against God.

Then the Great White Throne judgment: the old heaven and earth disappear.

After this judgment, eternity with a NEW Heaven and earth. 

 

Where people miss it: trying to force the scriptural TWO more comings in to ONE: it does not work: never has - never will. 

Next, due to the above, people try to force Paul's rapture in that coming WITH His saints. It does not work: never has, and never will. 

ANY theory that must rearrange this scriptural chronology will end up being proven wrong. 

The TRUTH: Jesus spends the entire 70th week in heaven, and the bride of Christ will be there with Him. 

The Old Testament saints will rise at the 7th vial that ends the week: along with the Two Witnesses and those beheaded during the week. 

BOTH the New testament saints and the Old Testament saints will return WITH HIM as shown in Rev. 19 to Armageddon. 

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Do you believe the resurrection occurred in Rev 14?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Do you believe a "resurrection" will be done with a sickle?

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Lamad wrote:

No, this is not true. Now look at it again. This passage started in John 13, and continued in John 14. There were no chapters or verses when John wrote the book, so we have to look at the context. Jesus was telling them in chapter 13 that he will soon be leaving them and that they could not follow him. Peter asked him, where are you going that I cannot follow?

Then Jesus said to them,  "Let not your heart be troubled:" "In my Father's house are many mansions:" "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,"

So yes, the topic of discussion is when Jesus is going away by being crucified. This is what he was referring to when he said, "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself."

This is where he is now. Preparing a place for his church. He will bring it back when he comes again. That's what he told Peter.

John 13

³³ “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

I see only one disagreement. Yes, He went (to heaven) to prepare houses for us. From what we know from saints who have been there and heard, and got prayed back to earth - the preparations are finished: heaven is only waiting on the saints to arrive. Even the preparations for the Marriage Supper are finished. 

He will bring it back when he comes again.  Here is where we disagree. Do you see Jesus bringing ANYTHING except the saints who have previously died in Christ with Him?  He is coming in 1 thes. ONLY for His saints: and He does not touch down - but remains in the air. Once the saints are caught up, He returns back to heaven to the homes he has prepared. It is a prefect picture of an ancient Jewish wedding.  ONLY PAUL got the revelation of WHEN and that those alive would be caught up. Therefore, to answer the question WHEN, we must believe Paul. In 1 thes. 5 Paul is clear that his gathering (the rapture) will come JUST before wrath and the Day of wrath.  Paul places the rapture and the Day of the Lord as back to back events that cannot be separated: the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. 

There is only ONE PLACE this fits in Revelation, and that is just before the wrath begins at the 6th seal. And that, my friend, is before any part of the 70th week begins. the entire week is wrath. You are right, this passage in chapter 14 follows right after Jesus telling them He was going (back to heaven.)

Did you notice that He told Peter and the others that they would FOLLOW latter? Follow WHERE? Of course to the very same place Jesus went to be: back to heaven. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Yes, their will be more later; one more, and then comes the end.

When Paul said, "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." He was the 1st to be resurrected.

So the next resurrection are those that are his at his coming.

 

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God"

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The 144,000 have already been redeemed when Christ rose from the dead. This is what John saw that they were redeemed by his blood. This is what is meant by their sealing. They were redeemed. To be redeemed does not mean collected. It means that they belong to Jesus. If you buy land, you make the purchase to redeem it, you own it, but may not occupy it until some time later.

But their body's are still in the graves with our own dead loved ones today. On the resurrection day, they will be resurrected at the same time all the rest of the saints are resurrected.

Agreed, Jesus was the very first to be resurrected to a resurrection, flesh and bone, body.

 

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afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 

Very true. But WHICH coming: when the scriptures show us two more comings. Our disagreement will be WHEN in relation to John's narrative in Revelation. Paul said it would be just before the day of Wrath or the day of the Lord: Rev. 6 and the 6th seal.  

 

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 Then cometh the end,  

 Keep in mind,  Paul is giving us a SUMMARY: not touching on every event as Revelation does. For example, "Christ the firstfruits, afterword...." Paul did not tell us 2000 years afterword. 

Then "His coming" and "then..." What is between "His coming" and "the end?" WE can't or shouldn't form doctrine from isolated verses: every theory must be tested with ALL end times scriptures. 

Where is this "the end" Paul is talking about? John does not tell us, but we could guess it would be after the great, white throne judgment at the time of the New Heaven and Earth. 

What then does Revelation show us BETWEEN "His coming (FOR His saints) and the New heaven and earth? Everything in Revelation from chapter 8 to chapter 21. 

 

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The 144,000 have already been redeemed when Christ rose from the dead.  

 You are totally ignoring John and what He has written. 

At first mention, the 144,000 are VERY MUCH ALIVE and on earth, and are being sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. And my friend, this is future to US TODAY - so almost 2000 years from when Jesus rose from the dead.  In other words, my missed it big time here. 

 

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This is what is meant by their sealing. They were redeemed. To be redeemed does not mean collected. It means that they belong to Jesus. If you buy land, you make the purchase to redeem it, you own it, but may not occupy it until some time later.  

Oh, really? And I am to take your word over John's? You have totally missed the intent of the scriptures, not to mention the TIMING in Revelation. 

WHERE ARE WE NOW in John's narrative? In chapter 1 it was while John was alive: in chapter 21 it is far into our future: so somewhere between is where we are NOW. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal all this time, waiting for the very last church age martyr. What will make a certain martyr the very last church age martyr? Of course, the END of the church age. What will END this age we are in now, the time of waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles? Of course, it will be the RAPTURE that will end the church age. What is next after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal and the start of judgment: WE ARE NOT THERE YET.  God is waiting on that last martyr of the church age. 

Of course for those people whose theories deny the pretrib rapture, they have the fullness of the Gentiles colliding with the 70th week of DAniel, which is for DANIEL'S people. John's chronology can be TRUSTED. 

What does John mean my sealing?  I wrote that it was for their protection. I knew what I was writing:

REv. 9: ³ And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. ⁴ They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Perhaps You are confusing OUR sealing with their sealing: WE are sealed by the Holy Spirit in OUR spirit. This sealing is on the forehead - that is outside, not something in the brain or inside. It is certainly NOT the same seal. Without a doubt these 144,000 have turned to Jesus. 

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. ³ And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. ⁴ These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 

So WHO ARE THESE? WHERE are they? Notice John's timing: it is just after the midpoint of the week: there is going to be more than 3.5 years before Jesus returns to earth. 

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb  John was in heaven, and saw Jesus. AT this time OF COURSE Jesus is still in heaven: He will not return to earth until some unknown time after the week has finished. 

his Father’s name written on their foreheads.   Now we know what the mark really is: the FAther's name written. 

before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.    This can ONLY be in heaven.

who had been redeemed from the earth.   This PROVES they are in heaven: FROM the earth means not on the earth any longer.

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.   WHERE is Jesus? Of course in heaven, and that is where they follow Him. 

Firstfruits  These are the firstfruits of the descendants of Jacob. At this time God has "harvested" the fullness of the Gentiles with the pretrib rapture. Now He has harvested the firstfruits of the Jews and Hebrews.

Since they are in heaven, without a doubt they will be COLLECTED. How else will they get from earth to heaven? DIE? There is not one hint they have died. Therefore I say they were raptured. But since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, they just as those alive in Christ will be changed as they are caught up, without a doubt, these 144,000 will be changed as they are caught up:  changed into resurrection bodies.  I disagree with you here. 

 

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But their body's are still in the graves with our own dead loved ones today.   

 Sorry, but that would not make them "firstfruits."  First means FIRST.  Sorry, but they are ALIVE to day because very soon this prophecy will come to pass, and they will be sealed. What? Y0u think they will be sealed DEAD? No, they are alive today and the time of their sealing could be very soon. If the rapture was tonight, their sealing would be right after the 6th seal earthquake and start of the Day of the Lord. How long after the rapture? Probably only days. 

 

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On the resurrection day, they will be resurrected at the same time all the rest of the saints are resurrected.  

Then you have robbed God of firstfruits. Firstfruits means they come FIRST! Why not just BELIEVE John and understand that soon after the pretrib rapture (in Rev. just before the 6th seal earthquake) these 144,000 will be sealed for their protection; and soon after that the first trumpet judgment will hit. 

Note, I copy and paste one of your sentences, then put a (quote) before what you wrote, and a (/quote) after what you wrote, but with brackets, not parenthesis. The server then puts your writing inside a quote box.

Edited June 4, 2020 by iamlamad