How many resurrections are there?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, TMarcum said:

He will be bringing with him new Jerusalem. That is the place he went to prepare.

When he comes in 1 thess 4, the resurrection happens 1st before those that are alive are caught up with the Lord in the air. But the resurrection also included the wicked that won't be raised up to meet the Lord in the air.

He doesn't return back to heaven before destroying the wicked (Rev 19:20)

The gathering of the rapture will follow the resurrection. And yes, it's right before the final wrath of God (7 vials).

The only thing that happens at the end of the 6th seal is the saints are sealed, and Satan is set loose from the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition. There is no resurrection until after the tribulation of those Days (Matthew 24:29). Keep in mind, the great tribulation period (7 trumpets)

and the day of the wrath of God (7 vials) are 2 separate periods

 

Well, Jesus was signifying regarding what manner of death they would suffer, when Jesus said that they would follow.

 

He will be bringing with him new Jerusalem. That is the place he went to prepare.  WHEN? WHEN does New Jerusalem come down? 

Not until Rev. 21 which is AFTER the NEW heaven and NEW earth.  My friend, if you wish to make sense, you MUST consider TIMING in Revelation. Chapters 4 & 5 start out in TIMING while Jesus was still on earth. Then Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD. (Rev. 5) Then the first 5 seals are church age. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal since then: waiting for the final martyr of the church age. 

Then comes the start of the Day of the Lord, and after that:

The start of the 70th week: at the 7th seal. The 7th vial ends the week. After that:

Rev. 19: the marriage and supper in heaven. After that:

Jesus returns to earth NOT WITH THE CITY  - but with the armies of heaven: angels and both the New and Old Testament saints.

Next, Armageddon. After that, the sheep and goat judgment

Then comes the 1000 year reign of Christ.  After that? The Old earth and heaven vanish - just disappear and God holds the great White Throne judgment. 

After that, a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW earth, and THEN the Holy City comes down.  You are then, appoximately 1007 years off - of Jesus came today.

When he comes in 1 thess 4, the resurrection happens 1st before those that are alive are caught up with the Lord in the air. But the resurrection also included the wicked that won't be raised up to meet the Lord in the air.  Where do you get this stuff? Yes, those IN CHRIST will be caught up, but for all the rest: what happens to them? they get LEFT BEHIND to face sudden destruction. This resurrection is ONLY for those "in Christ." 

He doesn't return back to heaven before destroying the wicked (Rev 19:20)  You are trying to MIX two comings: it won't work. In His 1 thes. coming, PRETRIB, FOR His saints, He returns right back to heaven where He STAYS until Rev. 19. (John 14)  Then He comes WITH His saints. Have you not seen that in the first part of Rev. 19 the saints are all there?

The gathering of the rapture will follow the resurrection. And yes, it's right before the final wrath of God (7 vials).  Not is is not! It is right where Paul TELLS us it will be: just before the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath.  Did you not notice that Paul mentions "day of the Lord" just three verses after his classic rapture verse in 4:17? It is because the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY, and this, at the 6th seal before the 70th week has even started. What WILL BE just before the 7 vials will be days of GT.

The only thing that happens at the end of the 6th seal is the saints are sealed, and Satan is set loose from the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition. 

Keep in mind, the 7th seal follows the 6th; but not before the events of chapter 7.  then a very important event happens: the 7th seal is opened so that now, finally THE BOOK can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments. 

No, sorry, but the days of GT will not event START until after the warnings in Rev. 14.  You have the GT coming before the man of sin is revealed. Sorry, that can't be. 

There is no resurrection until after the tribulation of those Days  Only the CHURCH  - just before the 6th seal, then the 144,000 caught up, then the Old Testament saints. All these will be caught up before and at the end of the week. 

My point was, Jesus went to heaven and said they were FOLLOW, which is a guarantee the church will go to heaven at the rapture.

[TMarcum]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 Why don't we just follow John...can we?

Joel 2: ³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Isaiah 2:¹² For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev. 6

² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joel tells us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood as the sign for the Day of the Lord. 

Isaiah tells us that on the Day of the Lord, there will be a mighty earthquake and people will go into the holes and caves  for fear of the Lord: EXACTLY what John tells us is happening at the 6th seal. THEY all know it is the start of the Day of the Lord. I wonder why YOU don't know it. 

John then tells us what they already knew, it is the start of the Day of the Lord. 

I thought we agreed to just follow John.?

But that fine, I prefer to use other books that are plain spoken, without the use of symbolic language. The book of Joel, Isaiah, and what is written in (Rev 6:12-17) is exactly in alignment with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. He said after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.

Matthew
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All of these must happen. These are signs of his coming. But the resurrection is not until the last trump of God, which is the 7th trumpet. When the trumpets begin to sound, these are when the beast will be loose from the pit and the 42 months of Satan will begin. But we must endure this terrible time.

In (2 Thess 2:1-9) Paul said, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. For that day will not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Whom the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his coming. His coming is after the working of Satan.

So you know very well that Rev 6 is not the resurrection. The resurrection will be by the coming of the Lord and his gathering our gathering unto him, when he is come to destroy the FP. This will not be until after the 42 months of the FP. This is what the bible says. We can't make Paul out to be a liar.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when is the destruction of the FP in Rev? Its when the Lord pours out his vials. It is after the resurrection of (Rev 14:16).

You say this is not the resurrection, but when is it then?

There is nothing left of the saints after (Rev 14:16). The saints are seen in Heaven in (Rev 15:1-4). Then in (Rev 15:5-8), the vials are being brought out

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Then in Rev. 11, John wrote, "thy wrath is come." This is a Greek Aorist active infinitive type verse that speaks of an event starting in the past. That certainly agrees with His wrath beginning at the 6th seal. 

 

Rev 11 is the 1st introduction to the FP. (Rev 11:1) starts off talking about the gentiles will trodden under foot the holy city for 42 months. Then the beast that ascended out of the pit will kill the 2 witness. This is when the bad times really get bad. 

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Revelation 14 is symbolic a prophetic: God is not going to harvest humans with a sickle! And this is just before the days that GT is going to START: so it is not time for harvest.  These verses are prophetic: speaking of events soon to come, but NOT at that time. For example, God will consider those beheaded as a part of the righteous harvest, and those at the battle of Armageddon as the wicked harvest.  Therefore I disagree with you. God is certainly not going to kill 1/3 of earth's population and He NOT be angry! He is not going to send stinging beasties to torture people unless He has wrath. And that is exactly what Revelation shows us: the start of Wrath at the 6th seal.

Symbolic language is used all throughout Revelation. In Rev 19, when the Lord destroys the FP, Beast, and the kings, look at the language: A sword comes out of the mouth of the Lord. Now how is it any different with a sword coming out of his mouth than a sickle being used to harvest? Or the saints that are with him eating the flesh of the kings. Do you really believe they sat down like cannibals and ate the flesh of the kings? Of course not. But did he destroy them? Yes he did. No different that when he said to put forth the sickle, you can bet the saints were gathered.

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This is minutes before the day of wrath. The 7 vials will literally be poured out in one day.   I believe that, but it is not the beginning of God being angry.

Gods wrath is not about anger, his wrath is about judgement. 

[TMarcum]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

When John first saw them in chapter 7, they were alive and well and on earth and about to be sealed (a MARK on their forehead: the Father's name) for their protection. 

The next time John saw them they are in heaven around the throne.  There is not one hint they are "souls" or people who have died and only their spirits and souls are seen. They are indeed "redeemed," but this does not mean they died and John is seeing their spirits. On the contrary, it much more appears they have been raptured and changes just as those alive and in Christ will be at the rapture.  "Redeemed" from the earth  A website has "gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.." Here Jesus has just taken possession of them and moved them from earth to heaven: EXACTLY as He will do for the church. 

To be redeemed does not mean resurrected.     Not "resurrected" as if they were dead, but CAUGHT UP and changed into a resurrectin body (a body that will never die) just as those in Christ will be at the rapture. I suspect they were changed when Jesus caught them up. I don't think they died. I see no hint of them having died. I don't think they were martyred. There is no hint of that. There is no hint they were only "souls." Compare them with the group too large to number in Rev. 7.  Of that large group, again, no hint they are only "souls." 

Their body's are still in the ground until (Rev 14:16), at the end of the same chapter.  How can they be in the ground if they have already been caught up to heaven? The truth is, they cannot. Just believe John: these 144,000 will be just snatched up while alive, changed into bodies that will never die, and escorted into heaven. John will get His main harvest of  Jews after the week has finished. Here He only gets firstfruits.

Therefore I disagree with you. 

I know you believe that they were resurrected in Rev 7, but it was only their souls.

Peter could not have been any clearer when he was having the same discussion to those he was preaching to. David said, "because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Peter clearly stated that it was his soul that was redeemed. Look at what Peter said, "let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Did you get this? He is both dead and buried. And his sepulchre is right here. When? Unto this day. That means he is still buried even today in 2020.

But keep going, "he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption". Let's do it again, His soul was not left in hell, and the Lords flesh saw no corruption. So what is the soul? Is the soul the people? No it is not. David's body is buried and in the grave, but his soul is resurrected with Jesus.

Acts 2:
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul "was not" left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

So believe what you want. But the facts are facts, the body's of the 144K are in the grave, but their souls are in heaven.

And the same applies to the saints of Rev 20:4. Their souls are the only thing John saw in heaven.

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, there is no hint they are souls. And they have already been "raptured" and will now follow Jesus everywhere.  In other words, they were sealed to survive the trumpet judgments, the God caught them up to heaven as firstfruits of the Hebrews. They get their OWN "rapture." 

Note very carefully, they are seen in heaven BEFORE the warnings are given: the warnings are therefore for those ON EARTH, and have nothing to do with those already in heaven. 

Sorry, but God is not going to harvest humans with sickles: neither will Jesus be on a cloud: these verses are SYMBOLIC of two harvest coming soon: the righteous and then the sinner.  Not only are these verses SYMBOLIC, they are PROPHETIC. Look at the first verses of chapter 15: the beheaded are just now (in chapter 15) showing up in heaven, showing us that the days of GT have just started. The destruction of "Mystery Babylon" - the city of Jerusalem, will not come until later in the week.  Much of the destruction will come at the 7th vial earthquake. 

Sorry, no resurrections in chapter 14. These verses are prophetic, showing FUTURE events soon to come. 

That is not what Peter said in Acts 2

Acts 2:
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that "he is both dead" and "buried," and his sepulchre is with us "unto this day."
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that "his soul was not" left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I suspect David was resurrected as one of the Elders when Jesus rose from the dead (Matthew 27). The general resurrection for the Old Testament saints I believe will come at the 7th vial that ends the week. When God raises those from before the flood, it is going to cause a great and mighty earthquake!

Only David's soul is in heaven. His body is buries in the grave unto this day (Acts 2).

But when God gave David the design of the house of God, he said the judgement council will go to the house of Aaron

The 24 elders were the sons of Aarons sons of Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.  Now (2) of his sons died with no chidren.

So the 24 elders were of the (2) sons "Eleazar" and "Ithamar".

Eleazar - 16 chief men

Ithamar - 8 chief men

These total the 24 elders represented by the figurative language of Revelation

1 Chronicles 24
1 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office.
3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.
4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar, and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.
5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.
6 And Shemaiah the son of Nethaneel the scribe, one of the Levites, wrote them before the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and before the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites: one principal household being taken for Eleazar, and one taken for Ithamar.
7 Now the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,
8 The third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim,
9 The fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin,
10 The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah,
11 The ninth to Jeshuah, the tenth to Shecaniah,
12 The eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim,
13 The thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab,
14 The fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,
15 The seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Aphses,
16 The nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel,
17 The one and twentieth to Jachin, the two and twentieth to Gamul,
18 The three and twentieth to Delaiah, the four and twentieth to Maaziah.
19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the Lord, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The idea that the soul is the whole person is made defunct in the New Testament. The spirit (life) WITH the soul, is the real person, and certainly exists outside of our physical body. But what makes up a "soul?"  It is the mind, will, emotions, memories and affections  - that for every human are different. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

What makes up a "soul" is what the word MEANS! Simply investigate the word and its origin!

First of all, it's not Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages or any other man-made study help out there. It's what is said in the Scriptures.

Second, it's not the English language that's important. It is the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek that should be consulted for the nuances of the words.

What Strong's does for us is to give us a starting point: When one looks up "soul" in the Concordance, one will find that the FIRST occurrence of the word for human beings is in the creation of the man, whom we call "Adam" in Genesis 2:7:

(That's NOT the first occurrence of the word, for it was used for other creatures, as well, in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, and 30.)

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew of this verse is...

Breeshiyt 2:7 (Hebrew TANAKH transliterated)

7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipach b'apaayow nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah:

(I use a transliteration scheme that limits each Hebrew letter and vowel pointing to a particular English letter or letter combination.)

7 And-formed YHWH God (d.o.->) the-red-[man] of-dust from - the-red-[ground] and-puffed in-his-nostrils a puff of-living-things and-became the-red-[man] into - an-air-breather living:

Using Strong's simply because it is a very popular and easily acquired source, we find the following entry in the Hebrew dictionary (using my transliteration scheme):

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh) [noun]. From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Since it is from naafash, we'll look up that word as well:

5314 naafash (naw-fash') [verb]. A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

However else the word may be used in various contexts, that's what the word MEANS! One can simply confirm this with any Hebrew-speaking Israeli, whether a "sabra" (a "native") or a Rabbi who teaches the religious, Jewish liturgy or a teacher from the Hebrew University.

Regardless what other human sources may add, that's what the Hebrew word "nefesh" means.

Now, Paul gave us a quote of this verse in his writings on the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:45:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written,

"The first man, Adam, was made a living soul";

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Greek of this verse is ...

Pros Korinthious A 15:45 (Greek New Testament)

45 Houtoos kai gegraptai,

"Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos, Adam, eis psucheen zoosan";

ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.

Thus, the Greek word "psucheen," the accusative form of "psuchee," was used to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh." Regardless what some theologian dictionary writer may have added to the definition, this was the Greek word used to translate "nefesh."

Using Strong's again, we see ...

5590 psuchee (psoo'-khay) [noun]. From psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nefesh, ruwach and chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Since it comes from psuchoo, we'll look up that word, as well:

5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho) [verb]. A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively)
-- wax cold.

Since Paul used the word to translate Genesis 2:7 and didn't add anything to the translation for clarification, the word "psuchee" more appropriately refers to "one that breathes" more than just "breath" (which wouldn't make sense in the English translation).

The main meaning of the Hebrew word "ruwach," frequently translated as "spirit," actually means "WIND":

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh) [noun]. From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

Since it comes from ruwach (root verb), we'll look up that word as well:

7306 ruwach (roo-akh') [verb]. A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy)
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

NOTE: It is found in Genesis 1:2, but it is NOT found in Genesis 2:7! Instead, the word "nishmat," the noun construct state of "nshaamaah," is found in Genesis 2:7:

5397 nshaamaah (nesh-aw-maw) [noun]. From naasham; a puff, i.e. Wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. Or (concretely) an animal
-- blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Since it comes from nasham, we'll look up that word as well:

5395 naasham (naw-sham') [verb]. A primitive root; properly, to blow away, i.e. Destroy
-- destroy.

It's very basic, very simplistic: God "puffed" air into the man, and the man became a living "air-breather." In fact, this verse was the BASIS for CPR used by the medical profession today!

The man (Adam) was NEVER said to be an "immaterial part" within a body. The verse says that God FORMED the man of dust from the ground! The man WAS the body! This is also seen in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:19 (KJV)

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou (the man Adam) return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Notice that He did NOT say the BODY of the man was dust; God said that HE was dust!

Now, with this information, we must take it to its conclusion: If the "soul" is an "air-breather," and the "spirit" is the "wind (or forceful breath)," then we can read, 

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit": and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

we can read it as ...

"Father into thy hands I comment my breath": and having said thus, He breathed His last breath.

Many other passages would also be so rendered. Now, for the ones you quoted:

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What you said makes little sense when we consider Paul's statement:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Wisdom then decrees that before we form doctrine from the Old Testament, we see what the New Testament has to say on it. We contact or commune with God with our spirit man or woman. We commune with people with our soul. 

 

Perhaps you are thinking like posttribbers think about John 14:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? How silly it would be for Jesus to go to heaven to prepare places (abodes, mansions) for us, and then forget them and come to earth.

No, the intent of the author is this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, BACK TO HEAVEN], there [IN HEAVEN] ye may be also.

To prove this, WHERE is Jesus in chapter 19? First He is IN HEAVEN at the marriage and supper. Then, and ONLY then, does He get on the white horse and return. In Revelation, the bride has been in heaven ever since Rev. 6 - a m0ment before wrath begins. And Jesus remains in heaven for the entire 70th week and then some time after.

we wait it out in the GRAVE!  Sorry, only our fleshly body waits in the grave. Why deny what Paul taught, that the moment we (our Spirit and soul) leave the body, we go to be with the Lord?  Why ignore the testimony of so many now that have died, gone to heaven, saw Jesus and many other things, but were prayed back to their body?  Since their testimonies agree with scripture, we should rejoice that we get to wait out God's wrath on earth in such a wonderful place. Look up Gary L Wood. He is such a man. I have heard his testimony over and over. There are many others; not just a few.  

Just know that you WON'T find that in the Bible.   Sorry, but this is myth. Why would you teach myth here when you are right on in other scriptures?

2 Corinthians 5:6

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

In case you wonder about the translation:

King James Version
5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Bible in Basic English
5:8 We are without fear, desiring to be free from the body, and to be with the Lord.

Darby's English Translation
5:8 we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Douay Rheims
5:8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Noah Webster Bible
5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
5:8 So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible  5:8 We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation:  5:8 we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Then there is Phil chapter 1.

²¹ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

²² But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

²³ For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

²⁴ Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

There can be no doubt as to Paul's meaning in either of these passages: when a born again person dies, they go to be with Jesus. 

See? All this  time it is been in the Bible, but your preconceptions have prevented you from seeing it. 

Revelation 7:9-14 has contextual clues that show this to be a preview of the New Jerusalem upon the New Earth.  Now I know you have no idea what John is doing in chapter 7.  Have you ever been to play where they close to curtain between acts of the play? What happens behind the curtain? they are rearranging the set to fit the next act. That is EXACTLY what John is doing here. He marches the reader right through seals, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 without a break. But John CANNOT get to seal 7 that officially opens the 70th week until two very important events happen: first, the 144,000 MUST be seals for their protection from the trumpet judgments.

Second, the CHURCH must be seen safely in heaven before God's wrath is poured out in the trumpets.  So John takes a short intermission and shows us the sealing and the church seen in heaven. Don't be led astray by John saying these came out of GT: His meaning is, God is calling the entire church age as great tribulation.  They came out of the world one by one as each was born again, and entered the church age of great tribulation - because the world hated Jesus so they hate anyone born again.  Note carefully John has not even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half where the days of GT will begin and take place. 

It seems I am always going to disagree with you in these areas. Stop and think: where in THIS world would God get billions of white horses? (The Old Testament saints resurrected, PLUS the Dead in Christ resurrected, PLUS those alive and in Christ changed, PLUS a billion or two children: all these will be in heaven at this time.)

Sorry, but these are coming FROM HEAVEN. That is where Jesus will be at the marriage. 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pros Thessalonikous A 5:23 (Greek New Testament)

23 Autos de ho Theos tees eireenees hagiasai humas holoteleis, kai holokleeron humoon to pneuma kai hee psuchee kai to sooma amemptoos en tee parousia tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou teereethein.

23 Himself but the God of-the peace set-apart-as-holy you completely; and entirely of-you the breath and the air-breather and the body faultlessly in the coming of-the Lord of-us Yeshua` Messiah may-be-preserved.

23 But the God of the peace Himself set you [plural] apart as completely holy; and may the breath (the words you speak) and the air breather (your living self) and the body (your buried self) be entirely preserved faultlessly in the coming/revealing of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah.

I understand that you're used to seeing this as three aspects of a human being that exist at the same time, but if one throws time into the mix, then these are STAGES of existence throughout a person's lifetime: The things you say; the things you do as a living body; and the things people remember of you as a dead body.

Regarding, "Perhaps you are thinking like posttribbers think about John 14:"

I believe John 14 is this way:

2 In my Father's house [the New Jerusalem] are many mansions [rooms; apartments]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go [to the New Jerusalem] to prepare a place for you [in the New Jerusalem].

3 And if I go [to the New Jerusalem] and prepare a place for you [in the New Jerusalem], I will come again [through the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

This makes good sense when one takes into account the words of John (same disciple) in Revelation 21:1-4:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky) and a new earth (ground): for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth (ground) were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell (tent) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

We don't go to the New Jerusalem; the New Jerusalem comes to us! Yeshua` wasn't assuring them that He would take them to the New Jerusalem; He was assuring them that He would return so they would be together again! That's what He said, and that's what He meant!

You asked, "To prove this, WHERE is Jesus in chapter 19? First He is IN HEAVEN at the marriage and supper. Then, and ONLY then, does He get on the white horse and return. In Revelation, the bride has been in heaven ever since Rev. 6 - a m0ment before wrath begins. And Jesus remains in heaven for the entire 70th week and then some time after."

That's a common belief, but Yeshua` is UPON THE EARTH in chapter 19. First of all, a Jewish marriage supper typically involves the drinking of wine, as in the marriage at Cana:

John 2:1-11 (KJV)

1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him,

"They have no wine."

4 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come!"

5 His mother saith unto the servants,

"Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them,

"Fill the waterpots with water."

And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them,

"Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast."

And they bare it. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him,

"Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now!"

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Yet, Yeshua` told His disciples at the Last Supper:

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new (from a fresh vintage) with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mark 14:25 (KJV)

25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:18 (KJV)

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

And, God's Kingdom, the Kingdom from the sky (since Yeshua` shall be coming from the sky), won't begin until the Messiah Yeshua` has returned to earth! Thus, it would make sense that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb won't begin until He comes back to earth!

Secondly, horses don't ride upon the sky ... unless you're thinking they'll be riding winged horses, like Pegasus! But, if that were true, why didn't John mention that these horses had wings? No, horses are GROUND runners.

Thirdly, you must understand that I accept that the first half of the Seventieth Seven ("Week") was fulfilled during the three-and-a-half-year "Earthly Ministry" of the Messiah Yeshua` at His First Advent. So, all that's left of the Seventieth Seven in Revelation is that latter half, and this will happen AFTER our Lord has returned! 

I believe that the two halves of the Seventieth Seven act as bookends on either side of the Great Tribulation, just as you said:

"Don't be led astray by John saying these came out of GT: His meaning is, God is calling the entire church age as great tribulation."

It's the time of "Jacob's Trouble!" It lasts FAR LONGER than a mere 3.5 years or even 7 years!

Finally, the verses you quoted from 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 and Philippians 1:21-24 are not really talking about a choice that Paul said he must make!

Let's look at the context of 2 Corinthians 5:

2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (Greek: aioonion en tois ouranois = "of-ages in the skies"). 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah); that every one may receive the things done in his (the Messiah's) body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I submit to you that this is not talking about a body of flesh, but the Body of the Messiah! To be absent from the Body of the Messiah is to be present with the Lord (in the future with no apparent time delay). We may be willing rather to be absent from the Body of the Messiah and to be present with the Master, but it's not our choice to make.

Philippians 1:12-24 (KJV)

12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; 13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; 14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. 19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, sonow also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot (past tense of "to wit" or "to know") not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; 30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me. 

Here, to be "in the flesh" is about "to abide in the flesh being more needful for you." Yet, again, this is a false choice, for Paul said, "having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; that your rejoicing may be more abundant in Yeshua` the Messiah for me by my coming to you again." Again, however, the "to be with the Lord" or "to depart and to be with the Messiah" is a death as falling asleep in the Messiah and to "immediately" be resurrected in the future.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

What makes up a "soul" is what the word MEANS! Simply investigate the word and its origin!

...

Here, to be "in the flesh" is about "to abide in the flesh being more needful for you." Yet, again, this is a false choice, for Paul said, "having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; that your rejoicing may be more abundant in Yeshua` the Messiah for me by my coming to you again." Again, however, the "to be with the Lord" or "to depart and to be with the Messiah" is a death as falling asleep in the Messiah and to "immediately" be resurrected in the future.

The New Testament is said to be the Old Explained. If you choose to form doctrine from the Old and ignore the New, you certainly can do that. But you will not have the whole truth. The truth is, "soul" is used in different ways in the scriptures.  Paul teaches us that the WHOLE man is Spirit, soul, and body.  Paul teaches us there is an "Inward man." It is our spirit man inside. If it was seen, people would think they saw a ghost. 

Proverbs teaches us we are a SPIRIT being:

Proverbs 20:27

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

 

Romans 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 

2 Corinthians 4:16

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

 

Now we see our inward man is spirit, but the outward man is our flesh and blood body. This shows us TWO parts of our triune makeup: created in the image of our Triune God. 

 

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

Now we know the soul is not the body nor is the body the soul: they are separate parts of the trinity of mankind.

 

Acts 2:27

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

Jesus BODY went into the tomb, and remained there; but His spirit and soul went into hell or hades: the place of departed spirits. 

 

Acts 2:41

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

Here "soul" is used for the entire person. 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Here Paul shows us we are a three part being exactly as God is, since we are made in His image and after His likeness. 

 

I guess then you must also deny that our creator God is a trinity. 

 

You and I are going to disagree until we both know even as we are known. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Only David's soul is in heaven. His body is buries in the grave unto this day (Acts 2).

But when God gave David the design of the house of God, he said the judgement council will go to the house of Aaron

The 24 elders were the sons of Aarons sons of Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.  Now (2) of his sons died with no chidren.

So the 24 elders were of the (2) sons "Eleazar" and "Ithamar".

Eleazar - 16 chief men

Ithamar - 8 chief men

These total the 24 elders represented by the figurative language of Revelation

...

I guess then Elijah and Enoch are just being held in limbo some place that really isn't a place? 

What about Moses: he was seen WITH Jesus and Elijah. 

The truth is, EVERY righteous human who has died is now in heaven waiting. People have BEEN there, talked to some of the Old Testament saints, and the got prayed back to their body to testify. Why ignore their testimony when it fits with scripture? Paul made this clear, when someone vacates their body (absent from the flesh and blood body) is to be present with the Lord. 

It seems you and I are going to disagree a lot. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, TMarcum said:

That is not what Peter said in Acts 2

Acts 2:
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that "he is both dead" and "buried," and his sepulchre is with us "unto this day."
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that "his soul was not" left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Do you still not understand that when the flesh and blood body quits functioning, the spirit and soul LEAVES the body - but keeps right on living and thinking and being? Remember the rich man and Lazarus. Yes, OF COURSE David's BODY was buried - and most of all the Old Testament saints' bodies were buried. It has been the norm for dead people since the beginning. 

You understand, verse 31 tells us Jesus DID GO to hell (hades: the place of departed spirits). But He did not REMAIN there. the point is, while Jesus was in hell, HIS BODY was in the tomb. 

Do you believe Paul that those who are alive and in Christ will be caught up and changed on the way up, to a resurrection body that will never die?  If you can believe that, why not then believe OTHERS (like from the Old Testament) can be caught up and changed too? Is it too difficult to believe the 144,000 could also be caught up and changed? 

TM, in Rev. 1 John was alive, so it was around 95 AD. Rev. 21 is far far into our future (the 1000 years are between). Does it make sense then that SOMEWHERE between chapter 1 and chapter 21 is where we are NOW in the book? 

I know where we are now: at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age: they were crying out wondering WHEN God would judge their murders. They were told that God is waiting for the final martyr: the very last one. ARe there STILL people being martyred in the church age? Yes, I would say daily. 

Has the next event, the 6th seal, happened? No, it is still future. It is the start of the Day of the Lord. 

Therefore the church has been waiting at the 5th seal since the first martyr. We are waiting for the pretrib rapture that will end the church age, and bring in the Day of the Lord: the 6th seal.

The 144,000 are alive today because Rev. 7 is in our future. Please don't ignore the timing John shows us in Revelation. We are now at the 5th seal. VERY soon the pretrib rapture will take place, the 6th seal will start the day of the Lord, then the 7th seal will start the 70th week. But BEFORE that 7th seal, between the 6th and 7th, the 144,000 WILL BE (future to us now) sealed.  

How can they be in their graves when their sealing ( a MARK on their forehead) be future? You have totally missed the TIMING in Revelation.

Edited June 5, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, TMarcum said:

I thought we agreed to just follow John.?

But that fine, I prefer to use other books that are plain spoken, without the use of symbolic language. The book of Joel, Isaiah, and what is written in (Rev 6:12-17) is exactly in alignment with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. He said after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.

Matthew
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All of these must happen. These are signs of his coming. But the resurrection is not until the last trump of God, which is the 7th trumpet. When the trumpets begin to sound, these are when the beast will be loose from the pit and the 42 months of Satan will begin. But we must endure this terrible time.

You are mistaken yet again. The signs in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal is the sign for the coming DAY OF THE LORD, while the sign in Matthew 24 is the sign of HIS COMING: two different signs, two different purposes, and separated by over 7 years. 

What event causes the sun to appear as black as sackcloth? It is speaking of a total eclipse of the sun. What event causes the moon to appear blood red? It is a total eclipse of the moon. Note carefully, in these signs both the sun and moon are SEEN. 

Did you ever do any real study on the signs in Matthew 24? If you look up the word "Darkened" You will find Strongs tells us it is the absence of light when speaking of the sky. This sign means neither the sun nor the moon can be seen: both INVISIBLE as well as the stars: in Revelation we see that God just turns out all lights. 

It simply does not work to force two more comings into one, and two signs in the sun and moon into one. These are separate signs for separate events and separated in TIME.  If you wish to study Joel, in Joel 2 He speaks of the sign for the DAY of the Lord, but in Joel three he writes of the sign of His coming: so both signs (separate signs) but in the same book.

The resurrection is not until the last trump of God, which is the 7th trumpet.   How in the world can a trump of God, and a trumpet sounded by angels be the same thing? They are NOT the same. Paul's "last trump" may well mean the last trump at the feast of trumpets for some year - and it will certainly be the last trumpet sound for the church age.  "Last trump: indicates there must have been a first trump, which hints strongly that it is speaking of the least trump of a SERIES. But Paul's last trump is most certainly NOT  from the series of trumpets in Revelation. They are JUDGMENT trumpets. Paul's last trump is the resurrection trump - a totally different purpose.  Did you notice that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last of three woes? How on earth can anyone imagine a WOE being the rapture? It does not fit. 

When the trumpets begin to sound, these are when the beast will be loose from the pit and the 42 months of Satan will begin. But we must endure this terrible time.  Your timing is OFF: it seems you pay no attention or very little to John's chronology and timing. 

Look: God made this very easy: He MARKED the entire 70th week so we can see it easily: the 7th seal starts the week, and the 7th vial ends it, while the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint - that point in time when the man of sin will enter the temple. He will BE the abomination Daniel talked about. It is at that point, and NOT BEFORE - when the Beast arises and shortly after the False prophet shows up. Then, and NOT BEFORE will start the days of GT.  

So right after the 7th seal, the first trumpet sounds, to BEGIN the 70th week. the first 6 trumpets take up the first 1260 days.  The second 1260 days goes from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial. 

The 42 months, the 1260 days, the 1260 days, the time,times and half of time, and the 42 months  - ALL THESE begin close to the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint. Some just before the 7th trumpet, some just after: all are for the last half of the week. 

Where is the rapture in relation to these times? The rapture will be at the 6th seal start of the DAY. This is before ANY of the 70th week. This is very necessary because God's wrath begins at the 6th seal so the entire 70th week comes with God's wrath. 

If you wish to stay behind and "tribulate" - God may well allow that. But WHY - when Luke tells us of an escape from all these things?