TMarcum Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 76 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: I guess then Elijah and Enoch are just being held in limbo some place that really isn't a place? What about Moses: he was seen WITH Jesus and Elijah. The truth is, EVERY righteous human who has died is now in heaven waiting. People have BEEN there, talked to some of the Old Testament saints, and the got prayed back to their body to testify. Why ignore their testimony when it fits with scripture? Paul made this clear, when someone vacates their body (absent from the flesh and blood body) is to be present with the Lord. It seems you and I are going to disagree a lot. They were taken up, but not their body. The bible makes it clear that Christ is the first to be resurrected unto eternal life. Meaning his mortal body and soul became immortal. The next group to be resurrected unto eternal life are those who belong to Christ at his coming. There are no exceptions. The bible is clear on this point. We can twist, bend, stretch the word any way we wish, but we can't change what the bible says to make the Word of God a lie. Jesus said I am the resurrection and he said, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Our souls can be redeemed, but our body can only be resurrected by Jesus. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Moses, Enoch, Elijah, were spiritually redeemed to God. None of their body's did not ascend into heaven. Their body's were incinerated in the ascension and will be resurrected in the last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMarcum Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 76 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: Do you believe Paul that those who are alive and in Christ will be caught up and changed on the way up, to a resurrection body that will never die? If you can believe that, why not then believe OTHERS (like from the Old Testament) can be caught up and changed too? Is it too difficult to believe the 144,000 could also be caught up and changed? Absolutely, I believe that those that are alive and remain will be changed instantly from mortal to immortal in Body, soul, and spirit. But other than these, at the coming of Christ, Jesus is the only one prior that has ever been resurrected in body, soul, ad spirit. There are no exceptions to the rule. All others prior to Christ that was taken up was soul and spirit only. Quote TM, in Rev. 1 John was alive, so it was around 95 AD. Rev. 21 is far far into our future (the 1000 years are between). Does it make sense then that SOMEWHERE between chapter 1 and chapter 21 is where we are NOW in the book? Yes, we are now between: - Rev 1:1 thru Rev 6:11 is the current timeline from John at Patmos until now. - Rev 7:1-17 is before Christ, and mixed with current people who are still dying in Christ. - Rev 12:1-7 is before Christ, and Christ ascension into heaven. - Rev 20:1-6 is from Christ's ascension, and mixed with current people who are still dying in Christ today. This is pretty much it. Quote I know where we are now: at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age: they were crying out wondering WHEN God would judge their murders. They were told that God is waiting for the final martyr: the very last one. ARe there STILL people being martyred in the church age? Yes, I would say daily. Yes Quote Has the next event, the 6th seal, happened? No, it is still future. It is the start of the Day of the Lord. Not yet, but it seem like we are very close. Quote Therefore the church has been waiting at the 5th seal since the first martyr. We are waiting for the pretrib rapture that will end the church age, and bring in the Day of the Lord: the 6th seal. Well, in your belief, yes. But I do not hold to a pretrib rapture. I hold to a resurrection with a rapture after the tribulation. Quote The 144,000 are alive today because Rev. 7 is in our future. Please don't ignore the timing John shows us in Revelation. We are now at the 5th seal. VERY soon the pretrib rapture will take place, the 6th seal will start the day of the Lord, then the 7th seal will start the 70th week. But BEFORE that 7th seal, between the 6th and 7th, the 144,000 WILL BE (future to us now) sealed. The 144K represents the whole house of Israel (whose names are written in the book of life). These are those redeemed by Christ when he ascended, who live under the Mosaic Law. John saw only their souls, being redeemed by Jesus when he ascended. King David soul was there too. But his body is both dead and buried in the ground unto this day. Quote How can they be in their graves when their sealing ( a MARK on their forehead) be future? You have totally missed the TIMING in Revelation. Only their soul is marked on the foreheads. John saw souls. When these were marked, they were counted. It was then when their names were added to the book of life, as they were being redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMarcum Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 76 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: It simply does not work to force two more comings into one, and two signs in the sun and moon into one. These are separate signs for separate events and separated in TIME. If you wish to study Joel, in Joel 2 He speaks of the sign for the DAY of the Lord, but in Joel three he writes of the sign of His coming: so both signs (separate signs) but in the same book. You can't form your end time belief on what you believe to be happening in Revelation, without considering what the other writers int he other books of the Bible said about the resurection. No where does the bible say that there will be calling away of the church, before the resurrection. Every single reference says resurrection first, and the calling away of those alive that remain will be changes afterward. There is no where in Rev 1 thru Rev 14 that says, caught up or resurrected. In all of these passages, you have only seen souls in heaven Quote The resurrection is not until the last trump of God, which is the 7th trumpet. How in the world can a trump of God, and a trumpet sounded by angels be the same thing? They are NOT the same. Paul's "last trump" may well mean the last trump at the feast of trumpets for some year - and it will certainly be the last trumpet sound for the church age. "Last trump: indicates there must have been a first trump, which hints strongly that it is speaking of the least trump of a SERIES. But Paul's last trump is most certainly NOT from the series of trumpets in Revelation. They are JUDGMENT trumpets. Paul's last trump is the resurrection trump - a totally different purpose. Did you notice that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last of three woes? How on earth can anyone imagine a WOE being the rapture? It does not fit. I am sorry that you do not believe it fits, but the 7th trump is Rev 14:16 and that is what Pauls said. Last trump! Quote When the trumpets begin to sound, these are when the beast will be loose from the pit and the 42 months of Satan will begin. But we must endure this terrible time. Your timing is OFF: it seems you pay no attention or very little to John's chronology and timing. You want real hard to make it fit the way you are invisioning it, but you have to have validation by the whole bible. Not just one portion that you may be miss interpreting. Quote Look: God made this very easy: He MARKED the entire 70th week so we can see it easily: the 7th seal starts the week, and the 7th vial ends it, while the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint - that point in time when the man of sin will enter the temple. He will BE the abomination Daniel talked about. It is at that point, and NOT BEFORE - when the Beast arises and shortly after the False prophet shows up. Then, and NOT BEFORE will start the days of GT. What is driving you crazy is, there are some passages in these chapters that are recapitulation. You must account for these. Let me give you an example. In Rev 18:4 as Babylon is being destroyed in one hour, the text says, "I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...." This did not happen in (Rev 18:4). This is merely a recapitulation of (Rev 9:13-14). The destruction of the city of Babylon was a result of the 6th Vial that was poured out on the great river (Revelation 16:12), "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. It was when the water of Euphrates was dried up that made way for the kings of the earth to invade the city. All of Chapter 7 & 8 are in depth details about the city and destruction that was prompted by the pouring out of the 6th vial. When the 6th vial was poured out, there were no saints in the city. The saints were already warned to come out of the city at the sounding of the 6th trumpet by the four angels. These are also the angels that gather the elect from the 4 winds. Revelation 9 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. Quote So right after the 7th seal, the first trumpet sounds, to BEGIN the 70th week. the first 6 trumpets take up the first 1260 days. The second 1260 days goes from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial. The 42 months, the 1260 days, the 1260 days, the time,times and half of time, and the 42 months - ALL THESE begin close to the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint. Some just before the 7th trumpet, some just after: all are for the last half of the week. Where is the rapture in relation to these times? The rapture will be at the 6th seal start of the DAY. This is before ANY of the 70th week. This is very necessary because God's wrath begins at the 6th seal so the entire 70th week comes with God's wrath. If you wish to stay behind and "tribulate" - God may well allow that. But WHY - when Luke tells us of an escape from all these things? Gods wrath begins at the 1st vial. The 7 trumpets are the great tribulation period, due to the absence of the preaching of the gospel, which broke the chain of the dragon. When the saints were all sealed ended the period of the call of repentance by God. After the sealing, no new convert ever came to be called to repent. But those who were still alive were saved by overcoming and enduring until the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, TMarcum said: Absolutely, I believe that those that are alive and remain will be changed instantly from mortal to immortal in Body, soul, and spirit. But other than these, at the coming of Christ, Jesus is the only one prior that has ever been resurrected in body, soul, ad spirit. There are no exceptions to the rule. All others prior to Christ that was taken up was soul and spirit only. Yes, we are now between: - Rev 1:1 thru Rev 6:11 is the current timeline from John at Patmos until now. - Rev 7:1-17 is before Christ, and mixed with current people who are still dying in Christ. - Rev 12:1-7 is before Christ, and Christ ascension into heaven. - Rev 20:1-6 is from Christ's ascension, and mixed with current people who are still dying in Christ today. This is pretty much it. Yes Not yet, but it seem like we are very close. Well, in your belief, yes. But I do not hold to a pretrib rapture. I hold to a resurrection with a rapture after the tribulation. The 144K represents the whole house of Israel (whose names are written in the book of life). These are those redeemed by Christ when he ascended, who live under the Mosaic Law. John saw only their souls, being redeemed by Jesus when he ascended. King David soul was there too. But his body is both dead and buried in the ground unto this day. Only their soul is marked on the foreheads. John saw souls. When these were marked, they were counted. It was then when their names were added to the book of life, as they were being redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Quote Absolutely, I believe that those that are alive and remain will be changed instantly from mortal to immortal in Body, soul, and spirit. But other than these, at the coming of Christ, Jesus is the only one prior that has ever been resurrected in body, soul, ad spirit. There are no exceptions to the rule. All others prior to Christ that was taken up was soul and spirit only. I agree. Christ was first to receive a resurrection body. Perhaps (and I believe so) those what He raised WITH HIM in Matthew 27 also were raised with resurrection bodies. I also think they were (or some of them were) seen in Revelation as the elders. Yes, we are now between: - Rev 1:1 thru Rev 6:11 is the current timeline from John at Patmos until now. Again we agree! Hallelujah! - Rev 7:1-17 is before Christ, and mixed with current people who are still dying in Christ. Here is where we disagree. It seems you too a tangent from John's chronology. If Rev. 6:11 is the "turning point" from history to future, why then jump backwards in time? I can assure you, John does not jump backwards. NO WONDER we disagree on the 144,000. My friend, this is FUTURE to the 6th seal and the 6th seal is future to us: John takes us on pretty much a STRAIGHT LINE through time from seal 1 to vial 7. We are now at the 5th seal waiting for the final church age martyr. Soon the rapture will take place and the final martyr will have come in. Then the 6th seal is opened starting the Day of the Lord and the time of God's wrath (officially, but not with any events yet.) Then God will HOLD BACK the "HURT" on earth (the HURT is the trumpet judgments and vials) until the 144,000 are sealed and the church is seen safely in heaven. (This is chapter 7 in a nutshell. It is FUTURE.) Once these two things are accomplished, then the 7th seal is opened to make way for the HURT to begin: the trumpet judgments. So far a very clear straight march through time. - Rev 12:1-7 is before Christ, and Christ ascension into heaven. You are close, but no cigar. It is verses 1-5 that are a parenthesis about Jesus birth and King Herod's attempt on His life. But 12:6 is the fleeing when those in Judea see the abomination: EXACTLY as Jesus told them. The man of sin will enter the new temple, and declare he is the God of the Jews (He is in the Jewish temple). That is the abomination that will divide the week. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to "mark" (That was God's word to me) that exact midpoint in heaven. Then 12:6 - the fleeing - will be only seconds after the abomination that divides the week. - Rev 20:1-6 is from Christ's ascension, and mixed with current people who are still dying in Christ today. No, not even close. The 70th week ENDS at the 7th vial, but Jesus does not return. At the 7th vial, I think is where the Two witnesses rise, and all the rest of the Old Testament saints - and of course where those beheaded will be resurrected. The events of chapters 17 & 18 take place. Then the marriage and supper take place. Finally, after all that, Jesus descends on the white horses to earth - to Armageddon. Rev. 20 is like an instant photo of SOME TIME inside the millennial reign of Christ. Or perhaps like a camera shot at the end of the 1000 years. It is just a picture of one point in time: The New and Old Testament saints are reigning, along with the now resurrected beheaded saints. It is AFTER this "first" or primary resurrection, so all saints are now resurrected. (Jesus first, then the church, then the Old Testament saints). Those who are saints and alive at the end of the 1000 years: John does not tell us about them: except we can guess they go on into eternity in natural bodies. Well, in your belief, yes. But I do not hold to a pretrib rapture. I hold to a resurrection with a rapture after the tribulation. You can certainly be wrong if you choose to be. ;-) You have nothing to end the church age, so you have the end of the church age, concurrent with the Day of the Lord, and then concurrent with the 70th week - all three running together. The 70th week is for THEM, not for us. In Daniel 12 God gives His purpose: to completely SHATTER their power. Is it therefore God's plan to completely shatter the power of the church? NEVER! The truth is, the church age ends, and the Day of the Lord begins. The 144K represents the whole house of Israel (whose names are written in the book of life). These are those redeemed by Christ when he ascended, who live under the Mosaic Law.I disagree. Firstfruits is just a tiny percentage of the real harvest. They are therefore exactly what John wrote, 12,000 from each tribe exactly as written. It is a mistake to symbolize something that makes perfect sense literally. First means they are first, but it also means MORE comes later - the main harvest. John saw only their souls, being redeemed by Jesus when he ascended. King David soul was there too. But his body is both dead and buried in the ground unto this day. "Souls" as a word is also used in the New Testament as the complete person. Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls. Since this is written AFTER the resurrection, we can be sure they are complete people, just like the previous mentioned group seen on thrones judging. Only their soul is marked on the foreheads. John saw souls. When these were marked, they were counted. It was then when their names were added to the book of life, as they were being redeemed by the blood of Jesus. 7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Do you see "souls" here? I don't. It is not here. I think you are ad libing. It says nothing about souls marked: it just says marked on the forehead and another verse tells us with the Father's name. There is nothing there about them being added to the book either. Since they come after the rapture, I think it very likely they SEE the rapture, then KNOW that Jesus really IS their Messiah, and they turn to Jesus at that moment. Some people imagine they turn into great evangelists. But John tells us NOTHING about what they will do. The next time John sees them, they are in heaven. There is no hint they died to get there. Therefore, I disagree with you. I cannot form doctrine from ad libed words or imagination. If we go buy just what is written, these are NOT YET MARKED because at this time they are probably being good Hebrews that ignore Jesus - thinking He was an impostor. Ha! We DID agree on a few things. Edited June 5, 2020 by iamlamad Sorry, Quoting messed up and it will not allow me to change it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 38 minutes ago, TMarcum said: You can't form your end time belief on what you believe to be happening in Revelation, without considering what the other writers int he other books of the Bible said about the resurection. No where does the bible say that there will be calling away of the church, before the resurrection. Every single reference says resurrection first, and the calling away of those alive that remain will be changes afterward. There is no where in Rev 1 thru Rev 14 that says, caught up or resurrected. In all of these passages, you have only seen souls in heaven OF COURSE the dead in Christ are resurrected before those who are alive are caught up: I have never said anything against that. You are not understanding what I write, probably due to preconceptions on your part. I don't see a problem. It seems you do - and that again is probably due to preconceptions. You on the other hand IMAGINE that great crowd too large to number are not completed humans with resurrection bodies. I think they are: I think they are the raptured church seen at this point in them in heaven. There is not one hint that they have died. Since when I study Paul, I find that HIS TIMING for the rapture is just before wrath, then we can pinpoint the TIMING of the rapture to just before the 6th seal. That fits John because He tells us the martyrs were told they have to wait for judgment until ALL church age martyrs are murdered: the total number. then John's next event is judgment and wrath: the 6th seal. Paul's rapture MUST come before wrath. It must come AFTER the final martyr is in. Therefore the rapture will be just before that great earthquake at the 6th seal: perhaps the first event of the Day of the Lord, or rather, an event just before the start of the Day of the Lord. Since Paul's rapture then comes just before the 6th seal in Rev. 6, it just makes sense that John would SEE the raptured church in heaven, and that is what we see with the great crowd, too large to number. John did not see the rapture, for He was in heaven at the time, and it seems God chose that he not see it - but God DID show him the raptured church in heaven. Now, for some reason I cannot figure out, you seem to think this is impossible because of "the resurrection?" A resurrection happens at the rapture event as the dead in Christ rise, so this IS a resurrection: so what does not fit? Can you explain? The "calling away" as you said comes AFTER both the dead in Christ and those alive and in Christ are raised. We are then called away to heaven - if you wish to use that term. The first mention of the word "resurrection" is not until chapter 20: are you saying then that nothing before that can be a "resurrection?" Question: could someone write of a resurrection but use OTHER WORDS? Is that possible? You know it is. You also know that in chapter 11 John tells us that the two witnesses are resurrected - but he did not use that word. But they came to life and were called up to heaven. Do you imagine it was only the "souls" of the two witnesses that was caught up to heaven? Surely not. It seems then that we are going to disagree on that great crowd, too large to number. I guess you assume them are the spirits of all the saints who have died. I can find no hint that they are only in spirit form.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, TMarcum said: I am sorry that you do not believe it fits, but the 7th trump is Rev 14:16 and that is what Pauls said. Last trump! You want real hard to make it fit the way you are invisioning it, but you have to have validation by the whole bible. Not just one portion that you may be miss interpreting. Let's look at what REALLY happens at the 7th trumpet: 5 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. That is it - and all of it: THAT is what will happen when the 7th trumpet is sounded. But we can read between the lines so to speak: WHY HERE? What will happen to cause the changing of rulership? And what is the great mystery around it? I think the mystery is, when Adam sinned, he turned over his great authority and dominion to Satan and Satan at that time became the "god" of this world. Jesus called him the "prince" of the world. In truth, Adam did not "give it" but Satan usurped it - "it" being the spiritual rulership of the world. So can we agree that because Adam sinned, Satan was allowed to usurp Adam's lease on this planet? It seems then that Adam was only given a 6000 year lease on the planet, and at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, that lease EXPIRES! Suddenly Satan will be found with NO LEGAL HOLD to earth at all, so a transfer is done in the throne room of heaven. JESUS becomes the rightful ruler of earth once again. And then immediately Satan and all devils are cast down to earth. Now, do you see a "coming" in any of this? I don't. If you do, please explain. After this, the 24 elders give a prophecy of future events. Rev. 14:16 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Do you really think this is literal? Will God reap with a sickle? Did you know this? An ancient Jewish sage wrote: God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th: “The meaning of this, that in six thousand years the Lord Go0d will bring all things to an end. And what is that he saith “and he rested the seventh day?” He meaneth this: that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the wicked one, and judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then He shall gloriously rest in that seventh day.” Then From the talmud: “R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)... R. Katina also taught, “Just as the seventh year is the Shmita year, so too does the world have one thousand years out of seven that are fallow (mushmat)” Another: Zohar VaYera 119a Ramban on Genesis 2:3 maintain that the 7 days of creation correspond to the seven millennia of the existence of natural creation. The tradition teaches thath the seventh day of the week, Shabbat or the day of rest, corresponds to the Great Shabbat, the seventh Millennium (years 6000 – 7000) All this perfectly agrees with John and the 1000 year reign of Christ. You want real hard to make it fit the way you are invisioning it, Sorry, that is not what is happening. God first sent me to find the "exact midpoint clearly marked." Then sent me to find "the entire 70th week clearly marked." Then taught me HIS intent in chapters 4 & 5: that it was God showing John the real timing of the first seal: that Jesus was NOT SEEN in the throne room, but the Holy Spirit WAS there, that "no man was found" in the first search John watched - a search that ended in failure - and then after TIME passed Jesus was found worthy - then John saw Jesus ascend back to heaven and send the Holy Spirit down - circa 32 AD. WHY was Jesus not seen in the throne room, and only the Father seen on the throne? God is showing John the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth. Why was the Holy Spirit still there in chapter 4 but sent down in chapter 5? Because the TIMING shown in chapter 4 was while Jesus was sitll on the earth. WHY was "no man found" in that first search? Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. But soon after He DID rise, and was then found worthy. He then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, then went right to the Father and got the book and began opening the seals. You see, when someone mentions an event in chapter 11: I KNOW it is midpoint of the week. When someone mentions a trumpet: I KNOW it is in the first half of the week. I don't make anything "FIT:" I just know where things DO fit. I know therefore that when someone imagines that the 7th trumpet is Paul's last trump: I know they lack understanding. I know they don't know TIMING. Paul's last trumpet (sounded by Jesus Himself [it is the trump of God]) will sound a little over 3 years BEFORE the 7th trumpet (sounded by an angel] will sound. When someone imagines a "coming" at the 7th trumpet, again I know they lack understanding. Yes, I agree any theory of the end must fit ALL end times scriptures. That is why I am a very solid pretribber! Edited June 5, 2020 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, TMarcum said: What is driving you crazy is, there are some passages in these chapters that are recapitulation. You must account for these. Let me give you an example. In Rev 18:4 as Babylon is being destroyed in one hour, the text says, "I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...." This did not happen in (Rev 18:4). This is merely a recapitulation of (Rev 9:13-14). It was when the water of Euphrates was dried up that made way for the kings of the earth to invade the city. All of Chapter 7 & 8 are in depth details about the city and destruction that was prompted by the pouring out of the 6th vial. When the 6th vial was poured out, there were no saints in the city. The saints were already warned to come out of the city at the sounding of the 6th trumpet by the four angels. These are also the angels that gather the elect from the 4 winds. Revelation 9 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. Gods wrath begins at the 1st vial. The 7 trumpets are the great tribulation period, due to the absence of the preaching of the gospel, which broke the chain of the dragon. When the saints were all sealed ended the period of the call of repentance by God. After the sealing, no new convert ever came to be called to repent. But those who were still alive were saved by overcoming and enduring until the end. Where to start: no, God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, NOT at the 1st vial. Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? This is the start of the Day of the Lord, with all the signs to prove it: a huge earthquake and people hiding in caves (Isaiah 2) and then the sun turning black and the moon into blood. It is the start of the Day of the Lord and John wrote is as the Day of His wrath. It officially begins here, but I think it will start WITH the first trumpet judgment. So we disagree. I go by what is written. What is driving you crazy is Nothing is driving me crazy. In Rev 18:4 as Babylon is being destroyed in one hour, the text says, "I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...." Question, are there Jews in Jerusalem right now. OF COURSE. And there will certainly be Jews in Jerusalem at this time. You did know, I hope that "Mystery Babylon" is the city of Jerusalem? You should know: the new Jewish temple is going to be built in Jerusalem. the man of sin is going to move to Jerusalem for the last half of the week. He and the false prophet will deceive THE WORLD from the city of Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. In other words, "Mystery Babylon" is the city of Jerusalem while the Beast and False Prophet is there. So OF COURSE there will be Jews (saints) in the city. This did not happen in (Rev 18:4). This is merely a recapitulation of (Rev 9:13-14). No, sorry, you are on a tangent. 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. This is an angel army led by the four angels that have long been waiting for their moment in time. I have wondered if this was the parable of the tares playing out. It IS the second woe. But this will be over and done with LONG before chapter 18. It will happen as one of the last events in the first half of the week. Shortly after this is finished (it probably will only take months or weeks) the man of sin will enter Jerusalem with his Gentile soldiers (Rev. 11:1-2) That will take place just days before the midpoint of the week (the 7th trumpet.) Therefore, you have missed it again imagining that these verses have anything to do with Rev. 18. In Rev. 18 , the week is OVER. The destruction of the city of Babylon was a result of the 6th Vial that was poured out on the great river (Revelation 16:12), "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. It will be the city of Jerusalem,, called "Mystery Babylon." Her destruction will be soon after, as you suspect, when demons are sent to the kings of the world to send their armies to wipe Israel off the map. (I believe that is what they will be told.) Have you ever heard of "Nathan," the Jewish boy that died and was taken to heaven to see the end of the Jewish age? He saw 70 nations send armies to Israel to wipe them off the map. All of Israel will be under siege, but my guess is, they will concentrate on the valley where they will meet Jesus, and on the city of Jerusalem. Before the city is completely taken, Jesus will descend and touch down on the Mt of Olives, creating a great valley and some of the Jews trapped in the city will flee through the valley. What "kings of the East" do you think? There are 8 Islamic nations East of the river, plus part of Iraq. All of Chapter 7 & 8 are in depth details about the city and destruction that was prompted by the pouring out of the 6th vial. Are you talking about Rev. 7 & 8? Sorry, but you are on yet another tangent. Revelation 7 is an intermission: a PAUSE between the 6th and 7th seals. It's purpose? To rearrange the setting so that the sealing of the 144,000 and the rapture of the church has taken place before Wrath begins. The trumpet judgments of chapter 8 are HISTORY by the time the 6th vial is poured out. Rev. chapter 8 is the 7th seal opened to start the 70th week. It is the start of the "HURT" coming to planet earth. I am convinced that at least trumpet 3 is speaking of a nuclear exchange. (Chernobyl equals wormwood) One third of the waters turning to blood is God and His great mercy starting out with only 1/3 destruction. NO one knows if these things are world wide or not. they are CERTAINLY more that just one city! They could extend for the entire middle East, or they could be world wide. the 70th week is more than God judging Israel: it is also God judging the world. Any time someone tries to link a vial in the same time as a trumpet or seal, I know they lack understanding of John's TIME AND TIMING. My AXIOM on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit some theory is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. Look, the vials will be poured out late in the second half of the week. The trumpets will be finished by the midpoint of the week. This is John's chronology. Any attempt to rearrange will guarantee a theory in error. The vials are how God will SHORTEN those days of GT. God will pour them out while the murders are at their peak. When the 6th vial was poured out, there were no saints in the city. It could be there are no saints in the real city of Babylon found in Iraq. But there are certainly Jews and Hebrews in Jerusalem, and many will still be there at the end of the 70th week when Armageddon comes. I don't know where you are getting this. Try as I might, I cannot find any warning of people to get out of some city at the 6th trumept judgment. These are also the angels that gather the elect from the 4 winds. How do you know this? The 7 trumpets are the great tribulation period, Oh my! Can we PLEASE just follow the text? WHO CAUSES the days of GT? Of course it will be the two Beasts. But wait: they do not even come on the scene until AFTER the trumpets are finished. WHAT will cause the days of GT? It will be the image and the mark and enforcing people to take them. And They are not even created until after the midpoint . (All trumpets are sounded before the midpoint.) It is just another tangent. The truth is, the days of GT are not coming until - as Jesus said - until after the abomination - and that will be marked by the 7th trumpet. It seems I disagree with almost every point you made here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMarcum Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 76 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 38 minutes ago, iamlamad said: I agree. Christ was first to receive a resurrection body. Perhaps (and I believe so) those what He raised WITH HIM in Matthew 27 also were raised with resurrection bodies. I also think they were (or some of them were) seen in Revelation as the elders. These that rose from the grave and appeared to many died again. Just like Lazarus, or the one Peter brought back to life. These were not bodily Resurrected. Quote Here is where we disagree. It seems you too a tangent from John's chronology. If Rev. 6:11 is the "turning point" from history to future, why then jump backwards in time? I can assure you, John does not jump backwards. NO WONDER we disagree on the 144,000. My friend, this is FUTURE to the 6th seal and the 6th seal is future to us: John takes us on pretty much a STRAIGHT LINE through time from seal 1 to vial 7. Rev 6:11 is a turning point because the ones in the 5th seal that was seem under the alter are the 144K that died before Christ ascended into heaven. They were given while robes and told to rest a while longer until their fellow servants are killed as they were. Well, their fellow servants are the saints of Rev 13:7. So their souls are still sleeping. Then we see the 144K seen in (Rev 7:1-9). These are the same group as John saw under the alter (Rev 6:9). King King david is here too. But only his soul. His body and all the rest, are still buried and in the ground (2 Acts 25). Now wait, in (Rev 7:9) then he saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9-17). What John saw was in the 1st group were the 144K sealed that lived under the law before Christ (also the same as the ones under the alter sleeping Rev 6:11), and standing with them, a great multitude that no man could number. These had palms in their hand and also are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. My friend the 2nd group that was with the 1st group (144K) are the Martyrs that were killed for following Jesus. The ones with the palms in their hands, are the ones who put palm branches down when Jesus came into Jerusalem on a Colt and donkey and they inaugurated him King of the Jews. The rest were those that gave their life and beheaded for the word of God (Rev 20:4). John saw their souls redeemed right along side of the ones that were redeemed when Jesus ascended into heaven. All of these were sealed. This is the whole church of Christ. But some are still alive (very few). Now go to (Rev 14:1-5). But look again. John saw the same group again in (Rev 14:1-5). He saw 144K that were sealed. But notice here that he saw the Lamb stood with them on Mount Sion. These that John saw in (Rev 14:1-5) are the souls of all the saints that died from the ascension, plus all those souls that died after Jesus ascended, all the way up until when the lamb stood on Mt Sion (Rev 14:1), as they are coming for the resurrection of the dead. He has all the redeemed souls with him and are getting ready to be resurrected with the body's in the grave. In just a few more verses in (Rev 14:16), their are not going to be no more souls any more, but only resurrected saints (body, soul, and spirit). It will be just as Paul said, the dead in Christ rise 1st and then those that are alive and remain will be changed and caught up to meet them in the air. This happens in Rev 14:16, and it all happens so fast, all that is seen are the dead saints rising. And a few minutes more, the changed saints are raised too to meet them in the air. Quote You are close, but no cigar. It is verses 1-5 that are a parenthesis about Jesus birth and King Herod's attempt on His life. No, no my friend. Absolutely not! These verses have nothing to do with Jesus's birth and the woman is not Mary. This has to do with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. The woman is Zion. Jesus took up the ministry at the age of 30 and was bound by the mosaic law until his death. His death (death of the testator) sealed the old covenant and he became the testator of the new covenant. From the age of 30-33-1/2, Jesus was still in the womb of the woman, as she was in labor and travailed, to bear the child. When the she brought forth the child, he was caught up to God and his throne. Quote But 12:6 is the fleeing when those in Judea see the abomination: EXACTLY as Jesus told them. The man of sin will enter the new temple, and declare he is the God of the Jews (He is in the Jewish temple). That is the abomination that will divide the week. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to "mark" (That was God's word to me) that exact midpoint in heaven. Then 12:6 - the fleeing - will be only seconds after the abomination that divides the week. Rev 12:6-9 is about the feeding of the woman. The woman (Zion) was nourished by the preaching of the gospel of salvation. The feeding period was for 3-1/2 years which was from he time John the baptist came preaching the gospel of the salvation, unto the day of Pentecost. This was the time of the conversion of the saints from being of the 144K (zion) to becoming the seed of the woman. All of the followers and disciples of Christ were converted to become Christians and received the holy spirit. The nourishing was the gospel of salvation. This is the milk that Paul referred to in ( 1 Corinthians 3:2). Now to Rev 12:12. Now that the war was won and they overcome Satan and he was cast out of Heaven (by the death, burial and resurrection of Christ), then he was angry and went after the woman again (Rev 12:14). But the earth helped the woman and she was carried into the wilderness where she was fed again. Now were still talking about the woman (Zion). This is the 2nd time she was fed for 3-1/2 years. This time, the woman is the rest of blinded Israel who the 2 witnesses prophecy, bringing in those that are blinded, and they are converted and to come to salvation. This is the original branch of the olive tree, that was cut off due to unbelief, that will be grafted back into the original root. This 2nd feeding is the last gospel of salvation for the blinded Jews. Then the 2 witnesses are killed. Then salvation is over. No more new converts will come to Christ of any group (jew or gentile). But those that are saved, must endure until the end. So what happens now, the dragon is angry and goes to make war with the remnant of her seed. These are the saints of Rev 13:7 who the FP overcomes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 4 hours ago, TMarcum said: They were taken up, but not their body. The bible makes it clear that Christ is the first to be resurrected unto eternal life. Meaning his mortal body and soul became immortal. The next group to be resurrected unto eternal life are those who belong to Christ at his coming. There are no exceptions. The bible is clear on this point. We can twist, bend, stretch the word any way we wish, but we can't change what the bible says to make the Word of God a lie. Jesus said I am the resurrection and he said, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Our souls can be redeemed, but our body can only be resurrected by Jesus. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Moses, Enoch, Elijah, were spiritually redeemed to God. None of their body's did not ascend into heaven. Their body's were incinerated in the ascension and will be resurrected in the last day. I still don't understand your argument here. Christ WAS first, but that was in 32 AD! ANYTHING that happens now or in the future will CERTAINLY be after 32 AD. You are right, Enoch and Elijah have not yet received their immortality: they have yet to die the first time! Good point. If you think I am twisting, point to it and explain. I don't think I am. I agree that the next group will be the church: but that could be tomorrow! Human bodies are created in mom's womb, they live, and then they die. And after that, some are resurrected to eternal life, and others to eternal death - but not at the same time. I think we agree on this point. We disagree on Enoch and Elijah; God must have given them a temporary spiritual body of some kind. 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Of course that "heaven" could be just the atmosphere by definition. But is that the intention of this verse? I don't see Elijah and Enoch as exceptions to the rule. They have not died so they cannot be "resurrected." But in the future they WILL die for the first time. God has reserved them to be the Two Witnesses. Where do you see the Old Testament saints rising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted June 5, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,087 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 202 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2020 4 hours ago, TMarcum said: The 144K represents the whole house of Israel No sir. The 144,000 represents those in the house of Israel that use a walking stick with their left hand. On their their right hand, they wear a pinkie ring with an opal and the engraving LHWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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