How many resurrections are there?

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now, for some reason I cannot figure out, you seem to think this is impossible because of "the resurrection?" A resurrection happens at the rapture event as the dead in Christ rise, so this IS a resurrection: so what does not fit? Can you explain?

I do not believe their will be a rapture or resurrection that occurs until after the great tribulation period. This is told by Daniel in Daniel 12:1-3 & Jesus in Mathew 24:29. The great tribulation period is over on the 7th trumpet sounded in (Rev 11:15). The only text that indicates a resurrection from Rev 11:15, but before the vials are poured out is in (Rev 14:16)

I do not believe a rapture occurred before the tribulation period nor at the 6th seal. No where mentions any being resurrected until after the working of Satan and after the great tribulation period (2 Thess 2). If you have a reference that you believe (outside of Revelation) please provide it.

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Now, for some reason I cannot figure out, you seem to think this is impossible because of "the resurrection?" A resurrection happens at the rapture event as the dead in Christ rise, so this IS a resurrection: so what does not fit? Can you explain?

The "calling away" as you said comes AFTER both the dead in Christ and those alive and in Christ are raised. We are then called away to heaven - if you wish to use that term. The first mention of the word "resurrection" is not until chapter 20: are you saying then that nothing before that can be a "resurrection?" Question: could someone write of a resurrection but use OTHER WORDS?  Is that possible? You know it is. You also know that in chapter 11 John tells us that the two witnesses are resurrected - but he did not use that word. But they came to life and were called up to heaven.  

The resurrection in chapter 20:5 is the exact same resurrection as Rev 14:16. It is the exact same point in time. 

When the resurrection occurs in Rev 14:16, then the very next thing that occurs is the 7 vials are poured out. This is in the last day. The vials are all poured out at the end of in Rev 16. Then we go to chapters Rev 17 & Rev 18 which is a recapitulation of the 6th vial from Rev 16:12-15. The 7th vial takes us to Rev 19 where the Lord and resurrected saints judge the wicked. Then we turn to (Rev 20:1-6). These verses are a recapitulation of the time before the great tribulation.  The time line skips from  Rev 19:21 to Rev 20:8 where judgement continues. Then when the dragon is thrown in the LoF with the beast and FP.

Now for the time of the GWT. After this is the end of the 1st heaven and 1st earth.

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Do you imagine it was only the "souls" of the two witnesses that was caught up to heaven? Surely not. 

It seems then that we are going to disagree on that great crowd, too large to number. I guess you assume them are the spirits of all the saints who have died.  I can find no hint that they are only in spirit form.. 

 You and I are not going to agree on what I believe regarding the 2 witnesses. I do not believe they are 2 men. I believe the 2 witness of God are the (Word) and (Holy Spirit). To understand this, is to understand Zechariah chapter 4. This will be better for a separate discussion.

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's look at what REALLY happens at the 7th trumpet:

⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the same point in time as Rev 14:16. If it makes you happy to have the resurrection here, then that is fine and dandy. I concur.

 

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I think the mystery is, when Adam sinned, he turned over his great authority and dominion to Satan and Satan at that time became the "god" of this world. Jesus called him the "prince" of the world. In truth, Adam did not "give it" but Satan usurped it - "it" being the spiritual rulership of the world. So can we agree that because Adam sinned, Satan was allowed to usurp Adam's lease on this planet? 

The mystery that is hidden from the world has been discussed several times in the epistles. It is pertaining to the administration of the holy spirit. In this case, thru the holy spirit how the resurrection is administered. This is the mystery.

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It seems then that Adam was only given a 6000 year lease on the planet, and at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, that lease EXPIRES! Suddenly Satan will be found with NO LEGAL HOLD to earth at all, so a transfer is done in the throne room of heaven. JESUS becomes the rightful ruler of earth once again. And then immediately Satan and all devils are cast down to earth. 

As we go into Chapter 12, the first 7 verses is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon and woman, as we are being prepared to be introduced to the beast in Rev 13 

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After this, the 24 elders give a prophecy of future events.

 This is another recapitulation preparing us for an introduction for the judgement of the wicked at the GWT in Rev 20:11.

 

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Rev. 14:16 ¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Do you really think this is literal? Will God reap with a sickle? 

It was figurative language used to represent the resurrection.

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Did you know this? An ancient Jewish sage wrote:

God created in 6 days and rested on the 7^th: “The meaning of this, that in six thousand years the Lord Go0d will bring all things to an end. And what is that he saith “and he rested the seventh day?” He meaneth this: that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the wicked one, and judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then He shall gloriously rest in that seventh day.”

Then From the talmud: “R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)... R. Katina also taught, “Just as the seventh year is the Shmita year, so too does the world have one thousand years out of seven that are fallow (mushmat)”

 Another: 

Zohar VaYera  119a Ramban on Genesis 2:3 maintain that the 7 days of creation correspond to the seven millennia of the existence of natural creation. The tradition teaches thath the seventh day of the week, Shabbat or the day of rest, corresponds to the Great Shabbat, the seventh Millennium (years 6000 – 7000)

All this perfectly agrees with John and the 1000 year reign of Christ. 

 

Yes, but I believe as we turn into the 7000's, it is an eternal rest. Not merely 1000 years. Eternal sabbath!

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

These that rose from the grave and appeared to many died again. Just like Lazarus, or the one Peter brought back to life. These were not bodily Resurrected.

Rev 6:11 is a turning point because the ones in the 5th seal that was seem under the alter are the 144K that died before Christ ascended into heaven. They were given while robes and told to rest a while longer until their fellow servants are killed as they were. Well, their fellow servants are the saints of Rev 13:7. So their souls are still sleeping.

      King King david is here too. But only his soul. His body and all the rest, are still buried and in the ground (2 Acts 25).

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These that rose from the grave and appeared to many died again  

You don't know that, because Matthew never told us.  It is not scripture, but I will quote from a book:  This is a man who went to heaven and came back to testify: He is speaking to Abraham and this is Abraham answering Him:

Quote: Although we have been here for long ages, yet we have looked with great interest towards this event.  [The rapture event] Tender memories cluster about the scenes of childhood and early youth, and we feel glad to know we shall soon visit the place of our early experience in the world and the scenes that witnessed our salvation from sin. And then we shall receive the fullness and completion of our salvation. The redemption of our bodies. A very few of us have already had our resurrection as you see in my own case."

"I have been waiting for some time to ask," I replied, "what made the great difference between your appearance and those other happy spirits and even my own?"

"All the elders," said he, "received their resurrection at the time our Lord was raised... End of Quote

Does this agree with the bible? I think it does. You may disagree. It certainly does not contradict scripture. 

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Rev 6:11 is a turning point because the ones in the 5th seal that was seem under the alter are the 144K that died before Christ ascended into heaven. They were given while robes and told to rest a while longer until their fellow servants are killed as they were. Well, their fellow servants are the saints of Rev 13:7. So their souls are still sleeping. 

Sorry, but this is nothing but myth.  It does not follow any verses rightly understood. Revelation 6:11 is just a PICTURE of the martyrs of the very early church at one moment of time. Stephen was certainly one of them.. 

Seal 1: to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL  - taking the gospel to the nations.
Seals 2 through 4: t0 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. these three ride together but were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. They where allowed to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild animals to stop the church. They failed.  These first 4 speak of the entire church age, but the timing is EARLY church. Jesus just got the book and began opening the seals. 

Along with wars, and famines, and pestilences, of course there were martyrs. That is the 5th seal but very early in the church age. 

Now, note this carefully, from the 5th seal to the 6th seal is THE ENTIRE CHURCH AGE.   At the 6th seal the church age is FINISHED. Therefore, anything after the 6th seal is END TIMES. John tells us: it is the Day of the Lord. But it has just been ANNOUNCED.  Before any terrible events of God's wrath happen, God must seal the 144, 000 and rapture the church. Wrath is about to start with the first trumpet.

These under the alter, EARLY church martrys, have NOTHING TO DO with the 144,000. Period and end of story. This is just one more of many tangents. The 144,000 are FUTURE TO US today. Why? Because the 7th seal is future. And before that the 6th seal is future. We are still at the 5th seal waiting on Christ's next coming FOR His church.  Soon the church will be caught up and THEN, and ONLY THEN will the 144,000 be sealed. 

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were given while robes: 

  WHO was given the white robes? The martyrs. Church age martyrs. Some have probably been murdered today.  WE - the church today, are fellow servants. 

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until their fellow servants are killed as they were.  

HOW were they killed? They were put to death in many different ways. That is not what John is talking about; it is 

killed as they were  as "church age' martyrs versus 70th week martyrs that will come later. 

Where you are missing it: The events of any given chapter in Revelation will come AFTER the events of previous chapters and BEFORE the events of later chapters. Chapter 7 comes AFTER chapter 6, so the events of chapter 7 must FOLLOW  the events of chapter 6. Chapter 6 ends with the start of the Day of the Lord, FUTURE to us today. Chapter 7 timing then FOLLOWS the Start of the Day of the Lord, but will come before the next chapter events: the 7th seal.

You are trying to align something in chapter 7 with something in chapter 6. That does not work. Everything in chapter 6 is history at the end of chapter 6 - except the Day of the Lord will continue on. 

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, their fellow servants are the saints of Rev 13:7. So their souls are still sleeping.

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN. You are mixing up church age martyrs with 70th week martyrs: they are two different groups. Was Stephen a 70th week martyr? No, he was martyred in the very early part of the church age - now almost 2000 years ago.  Now, compare with the 21 Coptic Christians martyred in 2o15. They are STILL church age martyrs and are not of the same group as 70th week martyrs. Here are the 70th week martyrs: beginning to show up in heaven: note it is chapter 15:

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

In other words, you are mistaken again. Seal 5 is church age; events of Rev. 13 will be 70th week. 

By the way, they are crying out for vengeance: does that sound like soul sleep?  That is yet another myth. 

King David was not martyred. And He was Old Testament. We are talking about the church. 

Luke 20

 

³⁴ And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

³⁵ But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

³⁶ Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

³⁷ Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

³⁸ For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

In other words, David all all the saints back then are VERY MUCH alive; but their body had turned back to dust. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by iamlamad

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

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You don't know that, because Matthew never told us.  It is not scripture, but I will quote from a book:  This is a man who went to heaven and came back to testify: He is speaking to Abraham and this is Abraham answering Him:

Quote: Although we have been here for long ages, yet we have looked with great interest towards this event.  [The rapture event] Tender memories cluster about the scenes of childhood and early youth, and we feel glad to know we shall soon visit the place of our early experience in the world and the scenes that witnessed our salvation from sin. And then we shall receive the fullness and completion of our salvation. The redemption of our bodies. A very few of us have already had our resurrection as you see in my own case."

"I have been waiting for some time to ask," I replied, "what made the great difference between your appearance and those other happy spirits and even my own?"

"All the elders," said he, "received their resurrection at the time our Lord was raised... End of Quote

Does this agree with the bible? I think it does. You may disagree. It certainly does not contradict scripture. 

I disagree that the elders received their natural resurrection. They were redeemed, meaning spiritually resurrected, but according to Peter in (Acts 2), the boy's of the elders are buried and with us even today.

 

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Sorry, but this is nothing but myth.  It does not follow any verses rightly understood. Revelation 6:11 is just a PICTURE of the martyrs of the very early church at one moment of time. Stephen was certainly one of them.. 

Yes, they were souls of those redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

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Seal 1: to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL  - taking the gospel to the nations.
Seals 2 through 4: t0 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. these three ride together but were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. They where allowed to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild animals to stop the church. They failed.  These first 4 speak of the entire church age, but the timing is EARLY church. Jesus just got the book and began opening the seals. 

That is not what the seals 1-4 represent. The 4 seals are 4 horseman. These are 4 messengers of God. They gave status reports to God. In (Zechariah 1:8-17), we can read about the horseman. Zechariah asked the angel that spoke with him, who the men upon the horses are. The angel said,

 These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth (Zech 1:10). One of the angels asked the Lord how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

The 4 horseman ride up and down the earth and give status report to God. These did the same during the time of captivity of Israel. They gave report to the Lord that the land is at ease or at rest and my people are suffering, being held captive for 70 years. So the Lord said, he is returning to Jerusalem to have the house of the Lord rebuilt. And a line will be stretched upon it.

This is where much of the figurative language in Rev comes from: Such as the 4 horseman, the spirit with 7 eyes, the candlestick, the 7 spirits, the two olive trees, the measurement of the temple. 

Zechariah 1
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the Lord that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
12 Then the angel of the Lord answered and said, O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
13 And the Lord answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.
14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.
15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

 

But the 4 horseman of revelation is symbolic of the stages of the Babylonian captivity.

1st seal - White Horseman; he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is the warning that God made by the mouths of the prophets to the Children that because of their whoredom and spiritual adultery, that they will be attacked by their enemy, killed, slaughtered, and removed from Israel to be taken into captivity. The white horse is the 1st on the fields that go across to the opposing army to deliver the message to prepare to be attacked.

2nd seal - Red Horseman; and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This is the day of attack. This is the heat of the battle. The day of bloodshed. This is the 1st round of attacks by the front line of battle.

3rd seal - Black Horseman; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

This is the after mat of the attack. This is what is left of Israel when the dust settles. This is the next few weeks of those who were allowed to say in Israel to keep tend to and keep the vineyards. These are the poorest, weakest, uneducated of Israel that were of no use to Babylon, left behind having to make living and survive with sons taken, husbands killed, houses burned, crops destroyed, possessions stolen. This is the famine of the land. A measure of wheat for a penny. A measure was a quart, and a penny was a days wages. So one quart of wheat cost 1 days worth of wages. And 3 measures of barley (3 quarts) costs 1 days wages. They hurt not the oil and the wine. They left behind those to tend the orchards and vineyards.  

4th seal - The Pale Horseman; and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Those that are left behind die of pestilence, disease, starvation, hunger, riots. The food is scarce, water poisoned and polluted from the dead bodies, disease because lack of resources to bury the dead, people stealing and rioting trying to stay alive. This is death 

So can you see that this is the beginning of sorrow and what is coming up next is even worse than this. The 42 months of living under the new leaders. 

 

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These under the alter, EARLY church martrys, have NOTHING TO DO with the 144,000. Period and end of story. This is just one more of many tangents. The 144,000 are FUTURE TO US today. Why? Because the 7th seal is future. And before that the 6th seal is future. We are still at the 5th seal waiting on Christ's next coming FOR His church.  Soon the church will be caught up and THEN, and ONLY THEN will the 144,000 be sealed. 

  WHO was given the white robes? The martyrs. Church age martyrs. Some have probably been murdered today.  WE - the church today, are fellow servants. 

HOW were they killed? They were put to death in many different ways. That is not what John is talking about; it is 

Those under the alter are the 144K. These are those who died under the Mosaic Law. When those of Israel that followed Christ were converted to Christianity, they are no longer considered part of the 144K. The blinded Jews that come in later, are part of the 144K until they are converted, then they become the seed of the Woman.

 

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Where you are missing it: The events of any given chapter in Revelation will come AFTER the events of previous chapters and BEFORE the events of later chapters. Chapter 7 comes AFTER chapter 6, so the events of chapter 7 must FOLLOW  the events of chapter 6. Chapter 6 ends with the start of the Day of the Lord, FUTURE to us today. Chapter 7 timing then FOLLOWS the Start of the Day of the Lord, but will come before the next chapter events: the 7th seal.

You are trying to align something in chapter 7 with something in chapter 6. That does not work. Everything in chapter 6 is history at the end of chapter 6 - except the Day of the Lord will continue on. 

Their are recapitulation throughout the whole book of Revelation. It has a general chronological timeline, with many passages and even whole chapters of recapitulation. The majority of bible scholars will agree.

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In other words, David all all the saints back then are VERY MUCH alive; but their body had turned back to dust. 

I use David to illustrate that when the 144K were redeemed, it was only their souls being alive in heaven. As the book of Acts 2 is validation that the dead body's were not resurrected and are still buried in the ground until the last day when they will be raised from the grave.

But regarding their body's turning to dust, God will resurrect the body that turned to dust in the same manner that he created Adam from the dust. This will be a bodily resurrection, and not a re-creation. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by TMarcum

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

I disagree that the elders received their natural resurrection. They were redeemed, meaning spiritually resurrected, but according to Peter in (Acts 2), the boy's of the elders are buried and with us even today.

Here is the verse:

²⁹ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Maybe David was not with those that rose when Jesus rose. That could be one explanation.  

It is not a good use of the word to say "spiritually resurrected." Resurrection by definition means a dead body raised from the dead.  I will agree, Jesus rescued them from hades and took all that in "Abraham's bosom" to heaven.  

Anyway, it is a very minor point what happened when Jesus rose from the dead involving the others. All I can add is, IF they just came back to live and lived for any length of time, one would think they would get more than just one verse written about them. I think they were seen for a few minutes, then disappeared. It is only a guess.

Question: perhaps a silly one: did they every LOOK into David's sepulchre and see if his bones were still there? 

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

That is not what the seals 1-4 represent. The 4 seals are 4 horseman. These are 4 messengers of God. They gave status reports to God. In (Zechariah 1:8-17), we can read about the horseman. Zechariah asked the angel that spoke with him, who the men upon the horses are. The angel said,

 These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth (Zech 1:10). One of the angels asked the Lord how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

The 4 horseman ride up and down the earth and give status report to God. These did the same during the time of captivity of Israel. They gave report to the Lord that the land is at ease or at rest and my people are suffering, being held captive for 70 years. So the Lord said, he is returning to Jerusalem to have the house of the Lord rebuilt. And a line will be stretched upon it.

This is where much of the figurative language in Rev comes from: Such as the 4 horseman, the spirit with 7 eyes, the candlestick, the 7 spirits, the two olive trees, the measurement of the temple. 

But the 4 horseman of revelation is symbolic of the stages of the Babylonian captivity.

1st seal - White Horseman; he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is the warning that God made by the mouths of the prophets to the Children that because of their whoredom and spiritual adultery, that they will be attacked by their enemy, killed, slaughtered, and removed from Israel to be taken into captivity. The white horse is the 1st on the fields that go across to the opposing army to deliver the message to prepare to be attacked.

2nd seal - Red Horseman; and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This is the day of attack. This is the heat of the battle. The day of bloodshed. This is the 1st round of attacks by the front line of battle.

3rd seal - Black Horseman; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

This is the after mat of the attack. This is what is left of Israel when the dust settles. This is the next few weeks of those who were allowed to say in Israel to keep tend to and keep the vineyards. These are the poorest, weakest, uneducated of Israel that were of no use to Babylon, left behind having to make living and survive with sons taken, husbands killed, houses burned, crops destroyed, possessions stolen. This is the famine of the land. A measure of wheat for a penny. A measure was a quart, and a penny was a days wages. So one quart of wheat cost 1 days worth of wages. And 3 measures of barley (3 quarts) costs 1 days wages. They hurt not the oil and the wine. They left behind those to tend the orchards and vineyards.  

4th seal - The Pale Horseman; and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Those that are left behind die of pestilence, disease, starvation, hunger, riots. The food is scarce, water poisoned and polluted from the dead bodies, disease because lack of resources to bury the dead, people stealing and rioting trying to stay alive. This is death 

So can you see that this is the beginning of sorrow and what is coming up next is even worse than this. The 42 months of living under the new leaders.  

I will say this much for you: you have very vivid imagination.  Yes, there were horses that ZEchariah wrote of. But there is nothing that would hint these 4 horses and riders have the same task.  Next, these four don't ride together. The white horse and rider rides alone, while the next three ride together.  

Next, IN CONTEXT, the first seal was opened around 32 AD, when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. 

What does a horse represent in prophecy? Usually WAR or some kind of conflict. What would "white" represent? John used white 17 times in Revelation, and ever other time to represent righteousness. We can be SURE God would not use white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something else. 

What was righteous before God on earth in 32 AD? ONLY ONE THING: the infant church of Jesus Christ.  Make no mistake here: the white horse is to represent the church and/or the gospel. They were commanded to take the gospel to the nations. But Satan was and is the god of these nations: he was not about to step aside and allow the gospel to expand into new territory - not without a fight! Therefore it is written that this white horse and rider must OVERCOME: conquer. He was given a Victor's crown. That does not mean winning a conflict or two: it means TOTAL and final victory.  He has a bow: Greek TOXON from which we get toxic. In other words, it is a real bow designed to shoot arrows. NOT what Strong's theory of a bow of fabric!  It is an offensive weapon. But John mentioned no arrows. I can only guess the arrows will be the word of God. 

So what was Satan's response to the gospel going forth? All we need do is look at the life of Paul: he was constantly harassed by demonic spirits trying to stop him!  However, Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, was UNSTOPPABLE! 

These three, the red, the black and the pale were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can be sure that 1/4 was centered on Jerusalem where the Gospel began. That 1/4 would then take in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. 

The red horse was given a great sword and was to take peace from the earth - to stop the advance of the gospel. When a war starts, missionaries run. Where have two world wars started? IN Europe. Europe has been in conflict somewhere almost constantly since the church began.  What did Jesus say: There will be WARS and RUMORS of WARS. Jesus and John are in perfect agreement.

The black horse and rider were to stop the advance of the gospel using famine: no food and missionaries run. Where have famine after famine after famine happened in our lifetime? Africa. Inside that 1/4th.  Yes, famines have happened elsewhere too, but they were not caused by this horse and rider.  Jesus also mentioned famines in the beginning of sorrows. Again, JEsus and John in perfect agreement.

Then we come to the pale horse or sickly green horse titled DEATH. Satan was allowed to use pestilence to stop the gospel.  Where did the black plague hit twice, killing almost a third of the people each time? Europe.  Where as the AIDS virus decimated the population? Africa. 

John wrote that "power was given unto THEM:" but who is THEM? To kill with the SWORD: the Red horse rider was given a sword. Power was given unto "them:" to kill with hunger. The black horse was to bring famine. Power was given unto "them" to kill with "death." the Pale horse rider was titled "death." Therefore these three riders ride together, leaving seal 1 OUT of their mix. 

Satan tried his very best to keep the gospel confined to that 1/4th, but he failed: today the gospel is almost everywhere in the world. 

AFter these four, then the 5th seal for the martyrs: that about sums up the church age: 

Matthew 24:

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Jesus said, "the end is not yet..." His meaning: He was talking about the church age, NOT THE END.  JEsus and John are in prefect harmony here. 

In the end, are these horses and rider REAL? or are they only symbolic? My guess is, only symbolic. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, TMarcum said:

So can you see that this is the beginning of sorrow and what is coming up next is even worse than this. The 42 months of living under the new leaders. 

Those under the alter are the 144K. These are those who died under the Mosaic Law. When those of Israel that followed Christ were converted to Christianity, they are no longer considered part of the 144K. The blinded Jews that come in later, are part of the 144K until they are converted, then they become the seed of the Woman.

Their are recapitulation throughout the whole book of Revelation. It has a general chronological timeline, with many passages and even whole chapters of recapitulation. The majority of bible scholars will agree.

I use David to illustrate that when the 144K were redeemed, it was only their souls being alive in heaven. As the book of Acts 2 is validation that the dead body's were not resurrected and are still buried in the ground until the last day when they will be raised from the grave.

But regarding their body's turning to dust, God will resurrect the body that turned to dust in the same manner that he created Adam from the dust. This will be a bodily resurrection, and not a re-creation. 

So can you see that this is the beginning of sorrow and what is coming up next is even worse than this. The 42 months of living under the new leaders.

   Yes, the beginning of sorrows: these things are church age, BEFORE the end  - before the 70th week. Jesus said, "the end is not yet."  Here we can agree at least on the time. 

Those under the alter are the 144K.

  This is MYTH. There is not even one HINT of such a thing. Those under the altar are church age martyrs: very simple. There is NOTHING about the 144,000 what even hint they are martyrs. Again I must say your imagination is very good - but here was use good exegesis, not imagination.  You miss it also on TIMING: the 5th seal is church age - but the church age ENDS at the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord.  The 144,000 MISS THE RAPTURE; else they would be gone. But they are NOT gone: they are being sealed: a MARK on their forehead. It is very likely they SEE the rapture and so come to the conclusion Jesus really WAS their Messiah, so they turn to Him with all their heart - but AFTER the rapture. It is only a guess because John does not tell us HOW or WHY they turn to Jesus at this time. 

These are those who died under the Mosaic Law. 

 That would be all those from Moses to Christ! Sorry, NONE of these were church age martyrs. You are missing the truth by a country mile.

When those of Israel that followed Christ were converted to Christianity, they are no longer considered part of the 144K. 

Sorry, but in Revelation 7 the rapture is a done deal, history at this time: this is just before the start of the 70th week.   Any Jews that turned to Christ before this were OF COURSE a part of the rapture. In other words, GONE from earth at this time. These 144,000 are REAL JEWS and HEBREWS  - 12,000 from each tribe. Why is it so difficult just to believe John? Do you imagine this is impossible for God to find 12,000 from each tribe - and especially those that will turn to Christ just before the time of Jacob's trouble?  

Did some of the 144,000 disappear? NO! They are all there when John sees them the next time, IN HEAVEN.  Without a doubt, they were RAPTURED to heaven. 

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they become the seed of the Woman.

  I disagree here too. The "woman" is Israel or a subset of Israel. the SEED of the woman (Israel) that follow Jesus would not be Israel, but rather Christians: those who turn to Christ after the rapture - but only a remnant for the pretrib rapture took out the main load. If not for "Israel" the church would not exist. Jesus came from Israel. 

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Their are recapitulation throughout the whole book of Revelation. It has a general chronological timeline, with many passages and even whole chapters of recapitulation. The majority of bible scholars will agree.

Suppose you point out a few of these. People that think this just show they don't understand John's chronology and have not found his parentheses. 

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the dead body's were not resurrected and are still buried in the ground until the last day

What if by "the last day" Jesus only meant the Day of the Lord that ends the Jewish age? I have said all along that the rapture of the church will happen either ON the start of the Day of the Lord, or a moment before. Could one prove by scripture that His meaning was the last 24 hours? I doubt it, but I am not a Greek scholar.  Another meaning: there will certainly be a "last day" of the church age, and a different "last day" for the Jews. the rapture will END the church age so of course their resurrection will be on their "last day." 

Anyway, Paul is clear on the timing of His rapture / resurrection: it comes just before wrath. Could it be there is a different "last day" for the church and then another for the Jews? I do believe the resurrection of the Old Testament saints will come at the 7th vial that ends the week - yes, on the last 24 hour day. I don't see Paul's rapture fitting that timing.

This will be a bodily resurrection  Hallelujah!  FINALLY something we can agree on!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The New Testament is said to be the Old Explained. If you choose to form doctrine from the Old and ignore the New, you certainly can do that. But you will not have the whole truth. The truth is, "soul" is used in different ways in the scriptures.  Paul teaches us that the WHOLE man is Spirit, soul, and body.  Paul teaches us there is an "Inward man." It is our spirit man inside. If it was seen, people would think they saw a ghost. 

Proverbs teaches us we are a SPIRIT being:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Actually, the New Testament is the FULFILLMENT of the Old; but the Old Testament (the TANAKH - Torah = the books of Moses, Navi'iym = the Prophets, and Ketuviym = the Writings - TNK or Tav-Nun-Khaf) keeps the New Testament imaginations in CHECK! In that sense, the Old Testament GROUNDS the New! If one doesn't stay GROUNDED in the Jewish roots of one's faith, the imagination could take one places that even Yeshua` Himself would say, "Wow! I've never thought of it that way before! It's not right, but ... wow!"

(While the background of the text of the quote of your post is white, I can break apart a quote to add some thoughts. If the background is in blue, I can't break it up. So,...)

Proverbs 20:27 is saying that the nishmat adam - the puff of-[the]-red-[man] - is OUR candle FROM YHWH. See, you're absolutely right to quote Paul about the "inward man" and the "outward man." The "inward man" is the consciousness of the individual; the "outward man" is the collective workings of all the colonies of cells that make up our organs, tissues, and fluids. Those colonies of cells are not aware of their surroundings or how the body works together. But the "inward man" which is our mind, housed within the brain, IS consciously aware, both of what we feel within us (at least to a limited degree) and what we experience with our senses outside of us. Our ability to project our feelings on others and be empathetic to their needs and think about others gives us a conscience. God's laws give us the needed boost to be consistent in our treatment of others. 

HOWEVER, we don't exist apart from our bodies because we ARE our bodies! Or, said a little better, our bodies are US! The body IS the air-breather, the "soul!" When the body dies, the air-breather ceases to exist; therefore, the "SOUL" ceases to exist! That's why we NEED RESURRECTION for eternal life!

"Spirit" is the Hebrew word "ruwach" and the Greek word "pneuma." Both words refer to the "wind" of a person or that person's "breath."

Think about how the Greek word has been adapted for air-pressure devices, such as "pneumatic pumps" and "pneumatic tubes." This is because air has mass and is a "fluid," according to physics and fluid dynamics. It may be compressed because it is a gas, but it flows from a higher pressure to a lower pressure, creating what we call "wind." Because it "flows," we call it a "fluid." Air not only has mass, but it also takes up space. In fact, if air is released into a vacuum inside any container of various sizes or shapes, it will expand to take up all the space available within that container. As it expands or contracts, the pressure in that container changes accordingly. There is a formula for the relationship between the pressure, the space (volume), the type of gas used, and the temperature called the Ideal Gas Law that combines Charles' Law, Boyle's Law, and Avogadro's Law into a single statement of relationship. Men have learned these relationships, but God CREATED these relationships when He created haShaamayim, the Skies.

The driving force behind the wind is the energy from the sun and its surroundings. That energy is stored, becoming potential energy, in higher pressure areas. When released by a path to a lower pressure area, the potential energy becomes kinetic energy in the flow of the gas, and we get a FORCEFUL WIND! The shorter the distance to travel and the more the potential difference in pressure, the higher the wind speed. Eddies in the current of air give us the cyclic motion for dust devils, tornadoes, and hurricanes.

So, when we read,

Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit (Hebrew: ruwach = "wind") of God moved upon the face of the waters.

it would be inappropriate to say that it "hovered over" the waters. It moved, and quite likely, very fast! If the earth is spinning at 24,902 miles / 24 hours at the equator, it would NORMALLY and NATURALLY be traveling at 1,037.5833 mph (assuming no obstructions) over the (sur)face of the waters! (This would be true for the earth today, but it may be slightly different for the world before the Flood.)

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Proverbs 20:27

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

 

Romans 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 

2 Corinthians 4:16

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

 

Now we see our inward man is spirit, but the outward man is our flesh and blood body. This shows us TWO parts of our triune makeup: created in the image of our Triune God.

 

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

Now we know the soul is not the body nor is the body the soul: they are separate parts of the trinity of mankind.

 

Acts 2:27

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

Jesus BODY went into the tomb, and remained there; but His spirit and soul went into hell or hades: the place of departed spirits. 

 

Acts 2:41

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

Here "soul" is used for the entire person. 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Here Paul shows us we are a three part being exactly as God is, since we are made in His image and after His likeness. 

 

I guess then you must also deny that our creator God is a trinity. 

 

You and I are going to disagree until we both know even as we are known. 

You said, "Now we see our inward man is spirit, but the outward man is our flesh and blood body. This shows us TWO parts of our triune makeup: created in the image of our Triune God."

Actually, there's only one "part"; you're simply quoting some theological supposition.

In Matthew 10:28, notice the progression: One can kill the body but God can resurrect the air-breathing creature, but God can kill both the air-breathing creature AND destroy the body, too! HE'S the One we should fear! If God refuses to resurrect the air-breathing creature, then there's no coming back!

You said, "Now we know the soul is not the body nor is the body the soul: they are separate parts of the trinity of mankind."

Remember what the "soul" is! The "soul" is the "air-breathing creature." So, what you are saying is, "Now we know the air-breathing creature is not the body nor is the body the air-breathing creature: they are separate parts of the trinity of mankind." Can you see how absurd that is?

"Hell" is too nebulous a term. There were different words in Greek that were ignorantly translated as the one word, "hell." The Greek text uses "hadees," which means the "un-seen," and "ge-enna," which is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Gei-Hinnowm," talking about the "Valley of Hinnowm" outside Jerusalem. The one Hebrew word "sh'owl" (frequently written "sheol") means "asked about," and refers to the grave site, tomb, or sepulcher of which children would "ask about" the person or persons buried there.

When you quoted Acts 2:27, Peter was quoting from Psalm 16:10.

Acts 2:22-36 (KJV)

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 "For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.' (Psalm 16:8-11)

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the Messiah), that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."' (Psalm 110:1)

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Master and Messiah, Anointed to be King)."

Psalm 16:8-11 (KJV)

8 "I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

Psalm 110:1 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David.}

"The LORD said unto my Lord, 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

You said, "Jesus BODY went into the tomb, and remained there; but His spirit and soul went into hell or hades: the place of departed spirits."

Again, let's make the substitutions:

"Jesus BODY went into the tomb, and remained there; but His wind/breath and air-breathing creature went into hell or hades (the UNSEEN): the place of departed winds/breaths." Are you comfortable with that?

Regarding Acts 2:41, I agree with you on this point, but that doesn't mean that the "soul" isn't still best understood as an "air-breathing person."

I've already answered your usage of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 in my last post.

You said, "Here Paul shows us we are a three part being exactly as God is, since we are made in His image and after His likeness. 

I guess then you must also deny that our creator God is a trinity." 

Again, that is theological rhetoric you're spouting. First, I've shown that this is not about a "three part being" but three stages of our lives that need to be kept clean, our words, our lives, and our deaths.

You make the statement that I must also deny that our Creator God is a trinity. 

Well, we aren't trinity nor is our Creator God. There are two Beings spoken of in Scripture at the beginning of John, God the Father and God the Word. However, the Word BECAME FLESH and was named "Yeshua`" ("He shall save/deliver/rescue") and given the title of "Messiah." When the Word became flesh, He gave up certain attributes, one of which was omnipresence. Yeshua was LOCALIZED TO A BODY! He was and is also known as the "Son of God," not "God." That title was exclusive to His Father! He prayed to His Father all the time; He relied on His Father to keep Him doing the same works that the Father would do; and He prayed, "Not my will but thine be done." The Father committed all judgment to the Son. And, Yeshua` once said,

Matthew 19:17 (KJV)

17 And he said unto him,

"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

I believe that God the Father Himself is the "Comforter." We read in the Scriptures that God is holy. "Be ye holy for I am holy," He said.  We also read in the Scriptures that God is a Spirit. Yeshua` said, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." So, how is the "Holy Spirit of God" any different?

If we must disagree, at least we now know each other's position better. Like you said, one day we'll be taught which is the truth and the disagreement will be solved.

[TMarcum]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:14 PM, iamlamad said:

Here is the verse:

²⁹ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Maybe David was not with those that rose when Jesus rose. That could be one explanation.  

It is not a good use of the word to say "spiritually resurrected." Resurrection by definition means a dead body raised from the dead.  I will agree, Jesus rescued them from hades and took all that in "Abraham's bosom" to heaven.  

Anyway, it is a very minor point what happened when Jesus rose from the dead involving the others. All I can add is, IF they just came back to live and lived for any length of time, one would think they would get more than just one verse written about them. I think they were seen for a few minutes, then disappeared. It is only a guess.

Question: perhaps a silly one: did they every LOOK into David's sepulchre and see if his bones were still there? 

Peter was using David as an example to preach to his audience that Jesus is resurrected, and David's prayer was heard. He could have illustrated this using any of the old testament saint that is buried, but he used David as an example because he was referring to his prayer. 

[TMarcum]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:43 PM, iamlamad said:

I will say this much for you: you have very vivid imagination.  Yes, there were horses that ZEchariah wrote of. But there is nothing that would hint these 4 horses and riders have the same task.  Next, these four don't ride together. The white horse and rider rides alone, while the next three ride together.  

Much of the symbolic imagery and figurative language in Zechariah was also used in Revelation, including the 4 horseman. Yes, they are the same 4 horseman.

The 4 horseman have been around since creation. The same as the beast with 7 heads, the same as the 4 beast that stand before the Lord, were seen in Ezekiel. The 24 elders is figurative language as used in the building of the house of God that David was commissioned, the two olive trees, the candlestick, the 7 eyes of the Lord. 

None of these are new. They have been around since creation.