TMarcum Posted June 7, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 76 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/27/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) On 6/5/2020 at 9:11 PM, iamlamad said: Yes, the beginning of sorrows: these things are church age, BEFORE the end - before the 70th week. Jesus said, "the end is not yet." Here we can agree at least on the time. I personally believe the 69th week takes us to when Jesus was 30 years of age and began his ministry. Then that leaves one week (7 years) left. The time Jesus lived from age 30 to 33-1/2 years when he was crucified. This takes up 3-1/2 years. I do not believe the opening of any of the seals took up any of the 70 weeks. I think probably, seals 1-5 are already opened, the 6th seal could be opened in one day, even 1 hour. The 7th seal is the opening of the 7 trumpets. I personally believe the opening of the 1st trumpet starts the clock on the last 3-1/2 years. The clock stops when the 7th trumpet blows ending the 42 months. Then the last 3-1/2 years that completes the 70th week, will be the 42 months of the FP. Then will come the end. Quote This is MYTH. There is not even one HINT of such a thing. Those under the altar are church age martyrs: very simple. There is NOTHING about the 144,000 what even hint they are martyrs. Again I must say your imagination is very good - but here was use good exegesis, not imagination. My friend, their is not one word that says these were martyred for Christ. These were slain for the Word of God and testimony which they held. Jesus himself asked a question, "How is it a profit can die outside of Jerusalem". They killed all the profits. So yes, you call it a strong imagination. Or, you could just spend a little more time in your bible. Rev 6 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Quote You miss it also on TIMING: the 5th seal is church age - but the church age ENDS at the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord. The 144,000 MISS THE RAPTURE; else they would be gone.You miss it also on TIMING: the 5th seal is church age - but the church age ENDS at the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord. The 144,000 MISS THE RAPTURE; else they would be gone. Their is no rapture before the end of time. Quote Did some of the 144,000 disappear? NO! They are all there when John sees them the next time, IN HEAVEN. Without a doubt, they were RAPTURED to heaven. They were not raptured, they were redeemed. Quote What if by "the last day" Jesus only meant the Day of the Lord that ends the Jewish age? I have said all along that the rapture of the church will happen either ON the start of the Day of the Lord, or a moment before. Could one prove by scripture that His meaning was the last 24 hours? I doubt it, but I am not a Greek scholar. Another meaning: there will certainly be a "last day" of the church age, and a different "last day" for the Jews. the rapture will END the church age so of course their resurrection will be on their "last day." The last day is the resurrection, rapture, pouring out of the 7 vials, and the GWT of judgement. The the end when he destroys everything. Quote Anyway, Paul is clear on the timing of His rapture / resurrection: it comes just before wrath. Could it be there is a different "last day" for the church and then another for the Jews? I do believe the resurrection of the Old Testament saints will come at the 7th vial that ends the week - yes, on the last 24 hour day. I don't see Paul's rapture fitting that timing. This will be a bodily resurrection Hallelujah! FINALLY something we can agree on! Yes we agree, the last day incorporates all, as you pointed out. Edited June 7, 2020 by TMarcum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 7, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2020 On 6/4/2020 at 2:33 PM, TMarcum said: Yes, this is exactly how it will be. But there will be a resurrection that occurs first. There is no resurrection before the 6th seal. If you believe their will be, provide the scripture reference. You left out the resurrection of the saints and wicked in Rev 14:16 & Rev 14:19. Rev 14 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. The events of Rev 17 & 18 are a recapitulation of the 6th vial that was poured out (Rev 16:12-15). Rev 19 is a recapitulation of Rev 16:17-21 Yes, they were resurrected to be with him in Rev 14:16 No, sheep and goats were sorted in Rev 14:16 & Rev 14:19. So the sheep are already with the Lord. The righteous will not face the Judgement. But the goats are about to get destroyed. No, this has already happened before the great tribulation period. Satan was loosed from the bottomless pit in (Rev 11:7) & (Rev 17:8) Yes, Exactly Where was the other coming? We only have the one coming in Rev 14 and he was still here until the saints were caught up to meet him in the air and when all the 7 vials were poured out, he came down with the saints and destroyed the wicked. The beast and FP was thrown in the LoF in Rev 19:20 and the dragon was thrown in with them in Rev 20:10, and now it's the GWT of judgement. The things people try to force, is just silly. We all know Paul's rapture is in Rev 14:16 which includes the resurrection that happened 1st. Then those that were alive and remain were changed and caught up to meet them with the Lord in the air. Yes, every time. The bride will not be there until just before the end of the 42 weeks of Satan. Yeah, well all the saints are resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord before any vials are poured out. God will never destroy the righteous with the wicked. Amen! You are spot on. But there will be a resurrection that occurs first. Agreed: But most people include the dead in Christ rising when they say "rapture." It is really two events. There is no resurrection before the 6th seal. I think Paul makes it clear that HIS gathering comes just before wrath, so I would say it would HAVE To be just before the 6th seal. For scripture, I would say all of 1 thes. 5. Perhaps someone could say the 6th seal is only the announcement of wrath, but wrath will not start until the first trumpet, I would not argue. I am convinced the great crowd, too large to number is the church seen in heaven right after they are raptured. You left out the resurrection of the saints and wicked in Rev 14:16 & Rev 14:19. Do you really think Jesus will harvest with a sickle? I don't! I think this passage is VERY symbolic. Do I think it happens right then in the timing of chapter 14, slightly after the midpoint of the week? No, I think it is not only symbolic, but prophetic. If the earth was "reaped" right here, then where would God get the sheep and goats? Where would there be anyone left to repopulate the earth in the Millennium? Next, the days of GT are just about to start: are you going to rob God of all those who will CAUSE the GT - not to mention all those beheaded? It MUST be prophetic, because the beheaded only BEGIN to appear in heaven in chapter 15. On the other hand, would the battle of Armageddon be a "harvest" of the wicked? I would certainly think so. The events of Rev 17 & 18 are a recapitulation of the 6th vial that was poured out (Rev 16:12-15). I would rather think, if it is a recap, it is of the 7th vial great earthquake that shakes all the mountains down into the earth and destroys all the cities of the world. Rev 19 is a recapitulation of Rev 16:17-21 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. 19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. I would not call this a recap: I would call it a praise report - or a postcap. But I get your point. But this is the ONLY thing in Chapter 19 that could be called a recap. The rest of the chapter is new material. Yes, they were resurrected to be with him in Rev 14:16 No, the New Testament saints were resurrected just before Wrath (the 6th seal) and the Old Testament saints probably resurrected on the last day of the week, at the 7th vial. Sorry, but no resurrection in chapter 14. Who would be resurrected? Is there a great earthquake that would hint of a resurrection? No. I have to disagree again. No, sheep and goats were sorted in Rev 14:16 & Rev 14:19. So the sheep are already with the Lord. You sure put a lot of "weight" in a very ambiguous passage! Most of the church world place the sheep and goat judgment AFTER the 70th week has finished. If you place it here, sorry, you have robbed God of all those soldiers at Armageddon. Jesus will have no one to fight. This is why I say those verses of reaping in chapter 14 are both symbolic and prophetic. But the goats are about to get destroyed. WHEN? Untold millions of soldiers will be killed at Armageddon maybe two years or more from chapter 14. I think you are mistaken on your timing. No, this has already happened before the great tribulation period. You imagine the 1000 year reign of Christ is before the 70th week? Then you must think it is church age. You sure have no problems rearranging Revelation to fit your theory. Your theories will be proven wrong. WHERE in Revelation does not make the first mention of the 1000 years? It is in chapter 20. Where does the week end? In chapter 16. You are rearranging Revelation to fit a theory. It will therefore be proven wrong. Satan was loosed from the bottomless pit in (Rev 11:7) & (Rev 17:8) Sorry, but Satan was not even bound IN the bottomless pit until Rev. 20:2-3. So you are rearranging yet again! Your theory will be proven wrong. Where was the other coming? We only have the one coming in Rev 14 and he was still here until the saints were caught up to meet him in the air and when all the 7 vials were poured out, he came down with the saints and destroyed the wicked. The beast and FP was thrown in the LoF in Rev 19:20 and the dragon was thrown in with them in Rev 20:10, and now it's the GWT of judgement. The two comings are SO EASY: 1 Thes. 4 shows a coming (to the air only) FOR His saints, and Rev. 19 shows a coming after the 70th week WITH His saints. Sorry, NO COMING in Rev. 14. That is myth. he was still here This is myth: How could he be "still here" when HE COMES from heaven in Rev. 19? meet him in the air and when all the 7 vials were poured out There is no meeting in the air in Rev. 16! Go back and study Paul: the meeting in the air is JUST BEFORE WRATH. John tells us wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath: 6th seal. he came down with the saints and destroyed the wicked. How many comings do you have? He does not come to Armageddon until chapter 19! The beast and FP was thrown in the LoF in Rev 19:20 But this is not when the vials were poured out. It seems you have comings where they are none, and miss the timing on His first coming. Ah! You only think there is one coming I guess - and you place it in chapter 14 where there IS NO coming! As I said before, one coming cannot fit into all verses. We all know Paul's rapture is in Rev 14:16 No, my friend, it seems ONLY YOU know that. Sorry, but that does not fit Paul. Go back and read it again: Paul places His gathering just before the start of wrath: do you not remember how he wrote that God is not going to set any appointments with His wrath - that WE get raptured and get to live together with Him, while THEY get left behind with His wrath. I would really like to see what verses in chapter 14 you use to come up with a resurrection. Then I would like to see how you get soldiers at Armageddon when the earth was reaped of the evil back in chapter 14. I am sorry, but your theories are SO FAR from what I would call the norm of believers today, I will quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 7, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2020 14 hours ago, TMarcum said: I personally believe the 69th week takes us to when Jesus was 30 years of age and began his ministry. Then that leaves one week (7 years) left. The time Jesus lived from age 30 to 33-1/2 years when he was crucified. This takes up 3-1/2 years. I do not believe the opening of any of the seals took up any of the 70 weeks. I think probably, seals 1-5 are already opened, the 6th seal could be opened in one day, even 1 hour. The 7th seal is the opening of the 7 trumpets. I personally believe the opening of the 1st trumpet starts the clock on the last 3-1/2 years. The clock stops when the 7th trumpet blows ending the 42 months. Then the last 3-1/2 years that completes the 70th week, will be the 42 months of the FP. Then will come the end. My friend, their is not one word that says these were martyred for Christ. These were slain for the Word of God and testimony which they held. Jesus himself asked a question, "How is it a profit can die outside of Jerusalem". They killed all the profits. So yes, you call it a strong imagination. Or, you could just spend a little more time in your bible. Rev 6 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Their is no rapture before the end of time. They were not raptured, they were redeemed. The last day is the resurrection, rapture, pouring out of the 7 vials, and the GWT of judgement. The the end when he destroys everything. Yes we agree, the last day incorporates all, as you pointed out. If someone is slain for the Word of God, then they are a martyr. You got sidetracked: Here is what you wrote: Those under the alter are the 144K. These are those who died under the Mosaic Law. When those of Israel that followed Christ were converted to Christianity, they are no longer considered part of the 144K. I will say again, this is MYTH: there is NO CONNECTION with the martyrs (all those under the altar at the 5th seal) and the 144,000. First, they are separated by 6 verses of scripture, which is the starting of the Day of the Lord. Then they are separated by TIME: the martyrs of the church age ENDS at the pretrib rapture. then the 6th seal comes. THEN, and only then does John get to the 144,000, showing us they are sealed just before the 70th week and will live through the first half of the 70th week. Of course, for those that don't believe in a pretrib rapture, everything from the 6th seal on will probably be error. They imagine the church age and the 70th week must run parallel and simultaneously. That too is a myth, for the scripture tells us the 70th week is for DANIEL's people, not the church. I will congratulate you one believing the first 5 seals have been opened: few people understand that. What many people MISS: God is waiting on the fullness of the GENTILES. And He is waiting on the total number of church age martyrs. When these two things happen, blindness on the Jews will be lifted: and at least 144,000 Jews will turn to Jesus (after the rapture and perhaps because that SAW the rapture or know it happened for all the people that suddenly disappeared) and will receive a visible seal on their forehead so that the stinging locusts will not touch them. After they are sealed, the HURT on planet earth begins with the trumpets. The next time the 144,000 are seen, they are in heaven. HOW did they get there? The last day is the resurrection, rapture, pouring out of the 7 vials, and the GWT of judgement This is all nonsense because you don't follow the text. It is human imagination. These things you just mentioned will cover over 1007 years! You really must begin to pay attention to John's chronology. Since your theory forces a rearranging of John's book, it will be proven wrong. Their is no rapture before the end of time. This is MYTH: you use human imagination. Go back and study 1 Thes. 4 & 5: and 2 thes 2. "Both show us the rapture of the church comes before wrath. And John shows us wrath begins as in the Day of the Lord before the 70th week. I will give up - for now. You don't know this, but the first thing God did when He began teaching me was send me to Revelation to find "the exact midpoint clearly marked." Next, He sent me to find the ENTIRE 70th week "clearly marked." He told me HOW to find these things. He spent month teaching me chapters 4 & 5 (because I was SLOW.) He taught me chapter 12. He taught me TIMING through Revelation. He usually taught me by WORDS spoken. I can write out almost word for word what He spoke. I usually don't on forums. It is because of what He taught me that I wrote my axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong. For example, someone might write: "the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal." I instantly know their theory will be proven wrong. 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Retrobyter Posted June 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,596 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,446 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) On 6/3/2020 at 12:58 PM, TMarcum said: In (Luke 16:15-16), the word says that the law and prophets were until John. Since that time, the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it. He also said to the people that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. So we know that John came preaching the gospel of the kingdom, making the people ready for the Messiah. Luke 16 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Matthew 3 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Jesus told his disciples when he sent them out, say unto them, the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. Luke 10 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. After John was imprisoned and Jesus began his ministry, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. He told the people that the time is fulfilled. The kingdom of God is at hand. Further more, Jesus said to repent. Jesus said, the time that John preached to you about that the kingdom of God is at hand "is" fulfilled. It was fulfilled in Jesus. Mark 1 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Shalom, TMarcum. Let's start this post with a simple thought. While Yeshua` was here the first time (His First Advent), He did indeed teach the Kingdom of God, but that's not the same as "Christianity." Let's hit these four passages of Scripture in reverse order: Mark 1:14-15: Notice here that Yeshua` NEVER EXPLAINED what the "good news" ("gospel") was! He never gave a detailed explanation of what the "Kingdom of God" is (at least, not that we are told by John Mark)! Why not? This was VERY EARLY in His "ministry!" This was written in the FIRST CHAPTER of Mark's Gospel! Shouldn't the people be told what this "good news" was? And, don't think it's the "death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ," either! If He had taught this at this stage in His "ministry," NOBODY would have believed Him, and He would have been thought to be as crazy as the two guys across the lake in the country of the Gadarenes! Well, the truth is, THEY ALREADY KNEW WHAT IT WAS! The key is in Paul's letter to the Romans: Romans 10:13-15 (KJV) 13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Greek: sootheesetai = 'will be saved/delivered/rescued')." (quote from Joel 2:32) 14 How then shall they "call on him" in whom they have not "believed?" and how shall they "believe" in him of whom they have not "heard?" and how shall they "hear" without a "preacher" (Greek: keerussontos = 'a herald/town-cryer')? 15 And how shall they "preach" (Greek: keeruxoosin = 'shall they herald'), except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (quote from Isaiah 52:7) If we look up Isaiah 52:7, we read this: Isaiah 52:7 (KJV) 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! The children of Israel, particularly the Jews, were given this to read every year at least once a year (the haftarah) by the Rabbi of their synagogue, and then he would teach on this passage in their meetings. They ALREADY KNEW what this "gospel" was! "Thy God reigneth!" "Your God reigns!" As a people, they had already experienced such a kingdom! It happened when they left Egypt and followed the pillar of fire and cloud in the wilderness. Their King already WAS YHWH Elohiym! Remember God's words to Samuel when Israel had demanded a king like all the other nations had: 1 Samuel 8:7 (KJV) 7 And the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) said unto Samuel, "Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." So, they had rejected God as their King, and got Sha'uwl ("Saul") instead. When God removed Sha'uwl, He had David (pronounced "dah-VEED") anointed as king in his place. In answer to David wishing to build a house for YHWH, he received something better - the Davidic Covenant: 2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV) 4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 5 "Go and tell my servant David, "'Thus saith the LORD, "'"Shalt thou build ME an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"' 8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, "'Thus saith the LORD of hosts, "'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies." "'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make THEE an house. 12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'" 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. This Davidic Covenant - an Agreement that God made UNCONDITIONALLY with David - was NOT speaking about Shlomoh ("Solomon") when He said, "I will set up thy seed after thee!" We know this because David was still alive when Shlomoh became king, not "sleeping with his fathers" "when his days were fulfilled": 1 Kings 1:32-40 (KJV) 32 And king David said, "Call me Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada." And they came before the king. 33 The king also said unto them, "Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon: 34 And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, 'God save king Solomon!' 35 Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah." 36 And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada answered the king, and said, "Amen: the LORD God (YHWH Elohiym) of my lord (Hebrew: adoniy) the king say so too. 37 As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David." 38 So Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, went down, and caused Solomon to ride upon king David's mule, and brought him to Gihon. 39 And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, "God save king Solomon!" 40 And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them. This one whom God would choose and anoint to be King of Israel would come from David's seed, but He would be the Last and Greatest Anointed One, the Last and Greatest "Mashiyach" or "Messiah," the Messiah Yeshua`, the One of whom God said, "I will be His Father, and He shall be my Son!" Next verse: Luke 10:8-9: Let's look at this in its context: Luke 10:1-20 (KJV) 1 After these things (there's a LOT of things in the 62 verses of chapter 9), the Lord appointed other seventy (Greek: hebdomeekonta = "70"; some texts add "duo" = "2" for a total of "72") also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, "The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, 'Peace (Shalom) be to this house.' 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, 'The kingdom of God is come nigh (is coming near) unto you.' 10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." ... 17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name!" 18 And he said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." First, the word translated "city" in verse 1 is the Greek word "polis" and simply means a "town" or "village." Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the One Anointed by God to be King over Israel, was the very EMBODIMENT of God's Kingdom! When He would come through a town, the Kingdom of God came NEAR them! When Yochanan (John) began to say that the "Kingdom of God was 'at hand,'" that means that it was WITHIN THEIR REACH! All they would have to do is reach out and accept it - take it! However, that was NOT a PERMANENT invitation! Yeshua` RESCINDED that offer of the Kingdom when they rejected Him as their King! That repeal is best seen in ... Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV) 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord' (a quote from Psalm 118:26)." Yeshua`s method of working - His modus operandi - His manner - His style - His technique - was to approach each one of His potential subjects ONE-ON-ONE! Crowds can easily be swayed into becoming MOBS, as we see during the middle of the Passion Week. He dealt with people individually as often as possible. He didn't just go - <BOOM!> - and, everyone in the crowd was instantly healed! So, when it comes to Luke 16:15-16, that's NOT a good thing! Indeed, the Greek word translated "presseth" in the King James Version is "biazetai," which means he "forces his way" into it! Why did they do that? The people did that because THEY HAD NO LEADERSHIP from those who were supposed to be their LEADERS, their ELDERS! Luke 16:14-17 (KJV) 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous (wanting it all themselves), heard all these things: and they derided (made fun of) him. 15 And he said unto them, "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." (And, by the way, verse 17 shows us that the Law has NOT ended with John.) Quote Next, Jesus taught how to get into the kingdom of God. He came preaching the gospel teaching them the way of salvation. He told Nicodemus, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So there is no dispute that when we are born again, we are born into the kingdom of heaven. John 3 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. For one to "see the kingdom of God" and to "enter into the kingdom of God," does NOT mean that one will do so immediately upon being "born again!" Again, while Yeshua` was present with them, it was a legitimate offer of the Kingdom; so, they DID have a real chance to enter the Kingdom of God had they accepted the King. However, they did NOT then accept Him; so, they did NOT get the chance to enter the Kingdom thereafter. When Yeshua` left this earth, He took the offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM! He won't bring it back until HE COMES back! Let's turn back to Luke 19: Luke 19:11-15ff (KJV) 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, 'Occupy till I come.' 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us!' 15 And it came to pass, that WHEN he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..." And, don't forget His parable in the Olivet Discourse: Matthew 25:31-36ff (KJV) 31 "WHEN the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth hissheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 THEN shall THE KING say unto them on his right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' ..." These verses ARE JUST AS TRUE as John 3! Quote But we know we can only be born again by the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus. Paul made it clear. Actually, Paul did NOT say that! Furthermore, John wrote, 1 John 5:1 (KJV) 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the CHRIST (Greek: Christos = Hebrew: Mashiyach = English: Anointed One [to be King]) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. What Paul did was to ADD to the gospel of the Kingdom the ADDITIONAL INFORMATION that the Messiah Yeshua` had died, had been buried, and had risen again. Read it again, for the FIRST time: 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (KJV) 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas (Kefa = Peter), then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above (over) five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles (sent ones). 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach (Greek: keerussomen = "we herald"), and so ye believed. The "death, burial, and resurrection" were the ICING on the CAKE! Don't give up the cake just to eat the icing! Quote So as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. If we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him. When he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. When we are born again, we have been redeemed to God. We are born into the kingdom of heaven when we have being redeemed by Christ. We also know when it was applied. It was applied on the day of Pentecost when the comforter was sent and given by Christ Romans 6 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. When we have been redeemed by Christ, our names are then added to the Lambs book of life. Even Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you. It's within you when you are born again. NO!!!! This is a GRAVE error!! That phrase (in blue) was said to the P'rushiym (the Pharisees)! Would you say that THEY were "born again?" I'll say more when I quote your quote of the verses! Quote Paul said he has made us TO BE partakers of the inheritance of the saints. Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. He "has already" translated us into the kingdom. No. He has already translated us TO BE in His Kingdom. We are among those who are assured to be His subjects, but if the King is not here, yet, then neither is His Kingdom! If His Kingdom is not here, yet, then we are NOT currently His subjects, even if we'd like to think we are and count ourselves to be His future subjects! Quote Luke 17 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Colossians 1 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: But this is our spiritual birth. We still have the physical resurrection that needs to be accomplished. At this point, only our spirit has been born again as we wait for the redemption of our body. Okay, now let's get into Luke 17: First, Yeshua` had just been "demanded" by the P'rushiym "when the Kingdom of God should come," like they had any real say in "demanding" ANYTHING from God's "King-Elect!" Second, the Greek word "entos" which is used in the Greek text, translated here as "within" CAN mean "within," but it can also mean "AMONG!" In this particular case, it should have been translated as "among," because the word "you" in the KJV is PLURAL!!! Yeshua` was saying that the "Kingdom of God didn't come FOR THEM with some pomp nor shall they say, "Look, here it is!" or "Look, there it is!" He was saying, "The Kingdom of God is already AMONG all of you!" Why? Because the KING was already "AMONG" them! It is just flat out WRONG to think that this makes God's Kingdom some "spiritual" thing that only exists in the hearts of men! Quote So the spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. We have been spiritually saved. You haven't been "saved," "spiritually" or otherwise! You've been "JUSTIFIED by God!" THAT'S what determines if you are eligible to be God's children or not! The words "saved" and "salvation" are words that refer to God RESCUING His people, particularly the children of Israel, and particularly in passages of Scripture that involve prophecy! To prove this, one merely has to look at the context of Joel 2:32 and then see how that verse is used in Romans 10:13! Rather than using the "Roman's Road" as a tool to sharing the means by which one is justified by God, one would do better to use Yeshua`s own words in Luke 18 and 2 Corinthians 5:11-21: Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "'God be merciful to me a sinner.' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." 2 Corinthians 5:11-21 (KJV) 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself (who has exchanged places with us) by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (God was in His Messiah exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of exchanging places). 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. And, take note that "reconciled" and "reconciliation" mean "exchanged places with" and "exchanging places," respectively. Also, I don't know of a better version to use for verse 21 than the King James Version. Being closer to a direct translation from the Greek, it makes the best comparison between the two halves of the exchange. He became our sin; we become His righteousness (or rather, God's righteousness in Him). While it may be debatable whether "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS) is true, there's absolutely NO debate that "Once Justificed By God ALWAYS Justified By God" (OJBGAJBG)! God is the ONLY Person who could so justify us! NO ONE can justify himself! Edited June 20, 2020 by Retrobyter to correct a typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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