How many resurrections are there?

[TMarcum]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, TMarcum.

(Sorry for the delay; I've been on a "working vacation" for a week now.) 

Several. Remember first that chapter divisions are arbitrary. They were MEN'S invention in the 16th century. Even verse divisions are not inspired.

When one reads Revelation chapters 19 through 21, one will begin to see this fact: What is written in green are John's words as narrator. The words in blue are words of men and "angels" (messengers). The words in red are Yeshua`s (Jesus') words. The words in purple are words of God, the Father of the Messiah Yeshua`.

Revelation 19:1-21:5 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven (in the sky), saying,

"Alleluia (Greek transliteration of Hebrew: HalleluYah meaning "Give praise to Yah"); Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

3 And again they said,

"Alleluia."

And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying,

"Amen; Alleluia."

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying,

"Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me,

"Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

And he saith unto me,

"These are the true sayings of God."

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,

"See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

11 And I saw heaven (the sky) opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called "Faithful" and "True," and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful."

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 

8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

There is very much a chronological progression in these verses, and they are based upon the incarceration of haSatan, a Hebrew word that means "the-Enemy!" The battle that ensues in chapter 19 is definitely BEFORE haSatan is locked up in 20:1-3. Then, when haSatan is locked up, he is locked up FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. When the thousand years are finished, haSatan is released for a short time, and he attempts to deceive the nations once again. AFTER the thousand years, haSatan is thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, and that will be the eternal end of haSatan.

All else mentioned in these chapters hinges upon this chronological progression. The FIRST Resurrection is witnessed in 20:4-6 (less 5a which is parenthetical): "I saw the souls (a word that means "air-breathing creatures") of them that WERE beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they LIVED and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

To say that these "lived" when they had been "beheaded" proves that they were resurrected. While their resurrection was at or some time before the thousand years began, it certainly was prior to the beginning of this "thousand years" - this "Millennium." And, we are TOLD that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished!" The rest of the dead, then, were resurrected AFTER the "thousand years" - the "Millennium." That's pretty clear here. Thus, the "first resurrection" is the one PRIOR to the "thousand years" while the "second resurrection" would be the one called "the rest of the dead lived" which is said to be "not again until the thousand years were finished." It's the one AFTER the "thousand years" from which God determines who would be "cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur)." And, it's the FIRST resurrection where it is said "blessed and holy is he that hath part." 

Don't let the order of Hebrew literature (from which the Greek version was translated) confuse you. The part that says, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished," is referring to the time AFTER the "thousand years." Rev. 20:5b is referring back to verse 4, not 5a.

Another such passage is found in the parallel passage of 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is within the "Resurrection Passage" of Paul's writings. In fact, his theme for even these verses is resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest [obvious] that HE [God the Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him.)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, we have three resurrections noted: The "firstfruits" (which I think of as the "zeroeth resurection") was the Resurrection of the Messiah Himself in approximately 30 A.D.

The "first resurrection" will occur at the beginning of the "thousand years" that John talked about "when the Messiah returns." Those resurrected are raised to life because they "are Christ's" or "belong to the Messiah" and they come to life "at His coming!"

The "second resurrection" will occur when the Messiah "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, the Father," AFTER "He has destroyed death." This is parallel to ...

Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Note that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is "death"; NOT the FIRST! It's not talking about Yeshua` defeating death on the cross or in His own Resurrection; it's talking about His defeat of death after the general Resurrections, at the END of the "thousand years," DURING the Great White Throne Judgment just prior to the Re-Creation of the Earth as the NEW Earth! THAT'S when it is said,

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

One more reference:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man (Greek: ho Huios tou anthroopou); 
38 The field is the world (Greek: ho kosmos);
the good seed (wheat) are the children of the kingdom (Greek: hoi huioi tees basileias);
but the tares are the children of the wicked one (Greek: hoi huioi tou poneerou); 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil (Greek: ho diabolos = "the slanderer");
the harvest is the end of the world (Greek: sunteleia aioonos = "completion of-age");
and the reapers are the angels (Greek: aggeloi = "messengers"). 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This parable's explanation is the key: This parable is NOT about this current time! It's about the KINGDOM from the sky ("heaven"), when Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, has returned, bringing His Kingdom with Him, and reigns for that 1,000-year time period before the "harvest" or the Great White Throne Judgment, the completion of this age!

When asked, Yeshua` gives them the elements of the parable, found in verses 37-39. Simply plug in the true values instead of the parable elements into the parable stated in verses 24-30:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the Kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, his slanderer came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the Kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow children of the Kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'A slanderer hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the Kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the completion of the age: and in the time of the completion of the age I will say to the angels (messengers), "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the Kingdom into my barn."'"

Then, He supplemented the explanation of verses 40-43:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (the completion of this age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (the children of the wicked one); 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous (the children of the Kingdom) shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

As we saw in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, there's going to be a TRANSFER of power from the Kingdom of the Son, the Messiah of God and the Son of God, to the Kingdom of the Father, YHWH God Himself! Besides, the literal imprisonment of Satan, the Devil, the subduing of all His enemies comes between the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua` and the Great White Throne Judgment, the final judgment of all! That's what the LITERAL Millennium - the "Thousand Years" - the "Chilia Etee" - is all about! It's NOT just some arbitrary "long period of time!" If the Greek language was sufficient and John wrote about the "144,000" of the remnant of the children of Israel, then he CERTAINLY could write more accurately about a period that's been WELL over "1,000" years, even over "2,000" years now! The "Millennium" is NOT about this current time period prior to the Messiah's coming!

The book of Revelation does follow chronically, but within each chapter, there are passages that may have occurred at other times. My focus began at Rev 16:13-14 at the 6th vial that was poured out. This vial was poured out on the great river Euphrates that was dried up and made way for the kings of the east to invade the great city of Babylon. These kings were rallied by the evil spirits that came out of the dragon, beast, and FP.

After they took the great city of Babylon, it better prepared them for the 7th vial to gather for the battle of that great day of the Lord Almighty (Rev 16:13-14). This battle was fought in (Rev 19:18-21) & (Rev 20:9-10). 

In (Rev 20:1-6), this was not part of the chronological order of the story. This was a recapitulation of the history of the dragon. We see the exact same thing in chapter (Rev 12:1-8). The rest of the chapter beginning at verse 9 resumes with the timeline, but verse 1-8 is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon.

And because you cannot see this, you insist it adds 1000 years in between the timeline of chapter 19 & 20. This is not the case.

But you cannot see this, so let's move on and I will prove it to you.

Lets discuss Johns vision of (Rev 20:4). Look at this carefully, John saw thrones. This was present tense in this portion of the recapitulation. It was real time in his vision. And when he saw the judgment that was given to them that sat upon the throne. This was also still present tense. He saw this as present tense in his vision which was at the time of the same battle of chapter 19 where the beast and FP have already been thrown into the LoF.

But when he went on to where he said that he saw the souls that were "beheaded", the beheading was past tense in his vision. The term "beheaded" implies verb action that occurred in the past of his vision. Let's go on. Now look at the term "lived" and "reigned". These are also verb actions that implied they occurred in the past, as they are verbs actions of past tense from the time that when John saw souls in heaven.

My friend the souls that John saw that were beheaded occurred over 1000 years ago, at which point they "lived" and "reigned" with Christ. John saw in his vision that these souls had already lived and reigned with Christ over 1000 years ago. And now is the time of the judgement of the dragon.

So, you are incorrect with your interpretation. This is why you need to be paying better attention to what you are reading, so you can actually understand it. The 1st resurrection was when he saw the thrones, and he saw the souls that were there to judge the dragon as well as everyone else at the GWT of judgement. The 1st resurrection was not before the 1000 years, it was after the 1000 years were over when he saw the souls had already lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. This is why the 1st resurrection is not until the 1000 years is finished (Rev 20:5)

Rev 20:4 And I saw (present tense) thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw (present tense) the souls of them that were beheaded (past tense) for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not (past tense) worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received (past tense) his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years.

 

 

 

[TMarcum]

22 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Are you saying the resurrection is past?  Have you considered this verse?

2 Timothy 2:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

No, I am saying the order of the resurrection is Christ (the firstfruits) and afterward, they that belong to Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

These are the only two eternal resurrections of the dead. The 1st one occurred when Christ arose from the tomb. The next one will occur at Christ's 2nd coming and then the end will come.

[TMarcum]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

I'm not the one who is disagreeing with scripture, my friend.  I'm also not the one that is trying to say 1000 years is just a number thrown out to mean a long time.

Of course it wasn't 1000 years long.  The 1000 years is the reign of Christ on earth after His second coming, which is how long Satan is in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 20:1-3

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

For the sake of screen real estate, I snipped your reply to this last question.

First, let's read discuss what the word first means.  First is not just a number, as in 1, 2, 3, and so forth.  It is also a place of honor, as in "He took first place."  The resurrection of those who were beheaded have a special place in Christ, as we can read.

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

As you can see in the above scripture, those who did not take the mark nor worship the beast and his image were beheaded.  Because of their sacrifice, they were resurrected and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. 

 

I will respond to you as I did with another member. Read this carefully and you will see clearly that the 1st resurrection is after the 1000 year period which is at the 2nd coming of Christ.

The book of Revelation does follow chronically, but within each chapter, there are passages that may have occurred at other times. My focus began at Rev 16:13-14 at the 6th vial that was poured out. This vial was poured out on the great river Euphrates that was dried up and made way for the kings of the east to invade the great city of Babylon. These kings were rallied by the evil spirits that came out of the dragon, beast, and FP.

After they took the great city of Babylon, it better prepared them for the 7th vial to gather for the battle of that great day of the Lord Almighty (Rev 16:13-14). This battle was fought in (Rev 19:18-21) & (Rev 20:9-10). 

In (Rev 20:1-6), this was not part of the chronological order of the story. This was a recapitulation of the history of the dragon. We see the exact same thing in chapter (Rev 12:1-8). The rest of the chapter beginning at verse 9 resumes with the timeline, but verse 1-8 is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon.

And because you cannot see this, you insist it adds 1000 years in between the timeline of chapter 19 & 20. This is not the case.

But you cannot see this, so let's move on and I will prove it to you.

Lets discuss Johns vision of (Rev 20:4). Look at this carefully, John saw thrones. This was present tense in this portion of the recapitulation. It was real time in his vision. And when he saw the judgment that was given to them that sat upon the throne. This was also still present tense. He saw this as present tense in his vision which was at the time of the same battle of chapter 19 where the beast and FP have already been thrown into the LoF.

But when he went on to where he said that he saw the souls that were "beheaded", the beheading was past tense in his vision. The term "beheaded" implies verb action that occurred in the past of his vision. Let's go on. Now look at the term "lived" and "reigned". These are also verb actions that implied they occurred in the past, as they are verbs actions of past tense from the time that when John saw souls in heaven.

My friend the souls that John saw that were beheaded occurred over 1000 years ago, at which point they "lived" and "reigned" with Christ. John saw in his vision that these souls had already lived and reigned with Christ over 1000 years ago. And now is the time of the judgement of the dragon.

So, you are incorrect with your interpretation. This is why you need to be paying better attention to what you are reading, so you can actually understand it. The 1st resurrection was when he saw the thrones, and he saw the souls that were there to judge the dragon as well as everyone else at the GWT of judgement. The 1st resurrection was not before the 1000 years, it was after the 1000 years were over when he saw the souls had already lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. This is why the 1st resurrection is not until the 1000 years is finished (Rev 20:5)

Rev 20:4 And I saw (present tense) thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw (present tense) the souls of them that were beheaded (past tense) for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not (past tense) worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received (past tense) his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

You not only disagree with me, you also disagree with Jesus, Paul, John, and Job.

The 1000 year period began when Christ rose from the tomb almost 2000 years ago.

 

The armies that Christ returned with was at the 2nd coming when the saints were resurrected and those that were alive and remain were changed,  and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This occurred in Rev 19. You can read about the battle in (Rev 19:18-20). This was one large battle that spaned the whole earth. There are many local areas where fighting is occurring. You can read about other local areas of the same battle in (Rev 19:20) & other local areas in (Rev 20:9-10). These were all destroyed on the same day during the same battle.

Shalom, TMarcum.

First, why didn't John say "two thousand years" if it's been almost 2,000 years ago? He certainly had the knowledge and the ability to write it, if he could write, "144,000" (Greek: hekaton tesserakonta tessares chiliades = "a-hundred forty fours thousands") for the remnant of the children of Israel!

Second, you speak as though the Return of the Messiah (the Christ) has already occurred! It most certainly HAS NOT! Surely you're not attempting to give a Preterist view of Revelation, are you?

Third, your statement, "This was one large battle that spanned the whole earth," is a universalism that should NOT be made of Scripture arbitrarily. Nope, sorry, but that battle, often called "Armageddon," is a LOCAL battle that will be the Messiah taking back the Land of Israel that is HIS Land! "Armageddon" is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Har Megiddown," meaning the "Mountain of Megiddo." It's a LITERAL place found 18.6 miles southeast of Haifa in Israel, called "Tel Megiddo," just northwest of the intersection between Highway 66 and Highway 65 in Israel. In history, it was a guard house overlooking and protecting the pass through the mountains at the south end of the Valley of Jezreel. The Valley of Jezreel has been the site of a number of battles because it is a natural staging area!

It will be the site where the enemies of Yeshua` will think to make a stand and fight back but will turn out to be a VERY bad choice on their part! Before this, however, Yeshua` shall be driving them out of Yhudah ("Judah"), including Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), and across the mountains of Israel into that valley. It's not "the whole earth"; it's "the whole Land!" The Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta, and pronounced "gay") is the translation of the Hebrew word "erets" (spelled alef-reish-tsadday, with the segol [short e] vowel points). Both words mean "land" or "field" or "dirt" or "soil," hence, "earth!" It's not the planet, but the GROUND!

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

If you read in (Rev 16:13-14), you can see when all (3) three; the dragon, the beast, and the FP were sent out into the earth and the whole world to gather the kings together for that great battle of the day of the Lord Almighty. The kings were destroyed in Rev 19:18. The beast & FP was destroyed in Rev 19:20 and the dragon was destroyed in Rev 20:10. This battle was not 1000 years long. It was on 1 day, which is "the great day" of "the Lord Almighty."

You're not wrong that the beast and the False Prophet were destroyed at the end of the battle; HOWEVER, you're  missing the fact that haSatan - the dragon - was CHAINED UP for a thousand years AFTER the beast and the False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur). It's not until that thousand years LATER that he will be released, incite a rebellion against the Messiah's Kingdom (which will be global by then), and then judged and thrown into that same Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur).

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Rev 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Yes, this is true, but have you considered just how long it will take to "gather the kings and their armies to the battle of that great day of Eel Shadday?" Furthermore, here's the word "gee" again and the "whole world," which are the Greek words "oikoumenees holees" which mean the "whole INHABITED" world, and for John this would have been the Roman Empire! 

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Have you read where Paul said that the Lord will return with the gathering of the saints "after" the working of Satan. Whom the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:1-11).

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Verse 9 means "PATTERNED after," NOT "chronologically after!" The Greek word is "met'" short for "meta," meaning "according to"; it is NOT "husteros," meaning "later!" It's not "epiousa" meaning "following" or "next"; it's not "hexees" meaning "next in order!"

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Paul said in the same book that when he when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels taking vengeance on them that know not God, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, in that day. He did not say days, with 1000 years in between.

2 Thessalonians 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul said "in that day" when he is revealed, is the same day as the wicked is destroyed with everlasting destruction as the same day when he shall come to be glorified in his saints.

We've had MANY such "days" when the "wicked are destroyed" when God took vengeance on those who disobeyed His commandments! This is not a singular occurrence! It's not a "one time only" event! There will be one such day when the Messiah Yeshua` returns with PASSION and ZEAL to fight for His people Israel!

There will be another such day at the END of the Millennium when fire is rained down upon them because Yeshua` has had enough of them (haSatan, too)! Learn the difference between them and don't mix them up!

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

You can clearly read the order of the resurrection described by Paul in (1 Corinthians 15:20-25).

Christ is the firstfruit of them that slept. The order of the resurrection is Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then comes the end.

When he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Not to reign for another 1000 years and then comes the end. This is not biblical and not what Paul said. He said the end comes when he delivers the kingdom to God and will put down all rule, authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:20
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Verse divisions can be confusing and can mislead many people into thinking the wrong thing. The words "then cometh the end" signify ANOTHER time of Resurrection! As I've said, it's...

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

These indicate THREE significant Resurrections: That of the Messiah Yeshua` Himself (in 30 A.D.); the general Resurrection at the time of the Messiah's Return, and the general Resurrection at the END of the Millennium - the FIRST 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign.

People SHALL die during the Millennium, and not all of them will be raised to life immediately. Some will just have to wait until the Great White Throne Judgment at the end.

But, again, the "subduing of all His enemies" WILL TAKE TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! That's part of why there even IS a "Millennium" - a "Thousand Years" period!

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Maybe you will believe the words of Jesus in (John 5:28-30), where he said that "all" that are in graves shall come forth "in that hour" when they hear his voice. They both shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

You're not thinking of verse 29 correctly: He mentions TWO resurrections, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" or rather "of CONDEMNATION," such as the DECISION from a JUDGMENT, like the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT! The word "hour" is more like how we use the word "time" in that it's "a time is coming." The Greek word here is NOT "chronos," but the wording is such that we get this picture: "hoti erchetai hoora" means "that is-coming an-hour." It's more indefinite and not a specific, singular moment in history. And, what do you do with the words, "kai nun estin" meaning "and now is?" Yeshua` was again pointing out that HE is the God-chosen source of Resurrection! While He was present, HE would raise the dead and proved it in the three recorded instances (although there were many others not recorded)!

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Maybe the words of Job who said no one will awake or be raised out of their sleep until the heavens be no more. (Job 14:12) "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." So this pretty much eliminates the rapture of the church and then another 1000 years, and then the end of time, when the heaven and earth will have fled before the face of the Lord (Rev 20:11).

Again, this is a misunderstood English interpretation of what Iyov actually said. Let's look at the context:

Job 14:1-14 (KJV)

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. 2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. 3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee? 4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; 6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. 8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; 9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.

10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The Hebrew of the highlighted phrase is "`ad biltiy shaamayim" and means "until a-failure of-[the]-skies." "Hashaamayim," created on Day 2, meaning "the skies," is the environment of the lights that were created on Day 4 of Creation. Such a failure would be with the dimming of those lights, such as in "the sun becoming black as sackcloth of hair, the moon becoming as blood, and the stars of heaven falling to the ground." It does NOT mean a "destruction of the skies!"

When one considers that biltiy comes from baalaah, its root, which in turn means "to become old; to wear out," biltiy may also refer to the skies becoming old and wearing out. This would imply the atmosphere's contamination in pollution and its need for a change. 

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

How about the saints will not be caught up to the Lord, before the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) & (1 Thess 4:15-17). Refer to above when Paul gave the order of the resurrection.

I personally don't have a problem with this argument since I believe that the first general Resurrection occurs AT His Second Coming, not 7 years before.

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

How about where Revelation 20:5, that said the 1st resurrection is not until after the 1000 years is over?

But, it doesn't. As I've said before, Rev. 20:5b does NOT refer to Rev. 20:5a, but to Rev. 20:4. Revelation 20:5a is more parenthetical, looking forward to the rest of the chapter. The Jewish way of thinking, and thus its literature, is not so chronological as it is teleological. It's PURPOSE-driven, not CAUSE-driven! Thus, they would follow the main points of an outline first before going into the subordinate points of the outline. We like to list the subordinate points after we've made one major point before going into the next major point.

[iamlamad]

On 5/26/2020 at 3:47 PM, Diaste said:

As many as it takes to fit the pet doctrine, apparently. 

Ha ha! Funny answer! It is like the "doctors" (the learned men) arguing over how many teeth a horse has. One bright boy suggested just go in the barn and COUNT them. He was soundly whipped and sent to be for his impudence. 

Perhaps we could count?

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, TMarcum.

First, why didn't John say "two thousand years" if it's been almost 2,000 years ago? He certainly had the knowledge and the ability to write it, if he could write, "144,000" (Greek: hekaton tesserakonta tessares chiliades = "a-hundred forty fours thousands") for the remnant of the children of Israel!

Second, you speak as though the Return of the Messiah (the Christ) has already occurred! It most certainly HAS NOT! Surely you're not attempting to give a Preterist view of Revelation, are you?

Third, your statement, "This was one large battle that spanned the whole earth," is a universalism that should NOT be made of Scripture arbitrarily. Nope, sorry, but that battle, often called "Armageddon," is a LOCAL battle that will be the Messiah taking back the Land of Israel that is HIS Land! "Armageddon" is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Har Megiddown," meaning the "Mountain of Megiddo." It's a LITERAL place found 18.6 miles southeast of Haifa in Israel, called "Tel Megiddo," just northwest of the intersection between Highway 66 and Highway 65 in Israel. In history, it was a guard house overlooking and protecting the pass through the mountains at the south end of the Valley of Jezreel. The Valley of Jezreel has been the site of a number of battles because it is a natural staging area!

It will be the site where the enemies of Yeshua` will think to make a stand and fight back but will turn out to be a VERY bad choice on their part! Before this, however, Yeshua` shall be driving them out of Yhudah ("Judah"), including Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), and across the mountains of Israel into that valley. It's not "the whole earth"; it's "the whole Land!" The Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta, and pronounced "gay") is the translation of the Hebrew word "erets" (spelled alef-reish-tsadday, with the segol [short e] vowel points). Both words mean "land" or "field" or "dirt" or "soil," hence, "earth!" It's not the planet, but the GROUND!

You're not wrong that the beast and the False Prophet were destroyed at the end of the battle; HOWEVER, you're  missing the fact that haSatan - the dragon - was CHAINED UP for a thousand years AFTER the beast and the False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur). It's not until that thousand years LATER that he will be released, incite a rebellion against the Messiah's Kingdom (which will be global by then), and then judged and thrown into that same Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur).

Yes, this is true, but have you considered just how long it will take to "gather the kings and their armies to the battle of that great day of Eel Shadday?" Furthermore, here's the word "gee" again and the "whole world," which are the Greek words "oikoumenees holees" which mean the "whole INHABITED" world, and for John this would have been the Roman Empire! 

Verse 9 means "PATTERNED after," NOT "chronologically after!" The Greek word is "met'" short for "meta," meaning "according to"; it is NOT "husteros," meaning "later!" It's not "epiousa" meaning "following" or "next"; it's not "hexees" meaning "next in order!"

We've had MANY such "days" when the "wicked are destroyed" when God took vengeance on those who disobeyed His commandments! This is not a singular occurrence! It's not a "one time only" event! There will be one such day when the Messiah Yeshua` returns with PASSION and ZEAL to fight for His people Israel!

There will be another such day at the END of the Millennium when fire is rained down upon them because Yeshua` has had enough of them (haSatan, too)! Learn the difference between them and don't mix them up!

Verse divisions can be confusing and can mislead many people into thinking the wrong thing. The words "then cometh the end" signify ANOTHER time of Resurrection! As I've said, it's...

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

These indicate THREE significant Resurrections: That of the Messiah Yeshua` Himself (in 30 A.D.); the general Resurrection at the time of the Messiah's Return, and the general Resurrection at the END of the Millennium - the FIRST 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign.

People SHALL die during the Millennium, and not all of them will be raised to life immediately. Some will just have to wait until the Great White Throne Judgment at the end.

But, again, the "subduing of all His enemies" WILL TAKE TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! That's part of why there even IS a "Millennium" - a "Thousand Years" period!

You're not thinking of verse 29 correctly: He mentions TWO resurrections, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" or rather "of CONDEMNATION," such as the DECISION from a JUDGMENT, like the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT! The word "hour" is more like how we use the word "time" in that it's "a time is coming." The Greek word here is NOT "chronos," but the wording is such that we get this picture: "hoti erchetai hoora" means "that is-coming an-hour." It's more indefinite and not a specific, singular moment in history. And, what do you do with the words, "kai nun estin" meaning "and now is?" Yeshua` was again pointing out that HE is the God-chosen source of Resurrection! While He was present, HE would raise the dead and proved it in the three recorded instances (although there were many others not recorded)!

Again, this is a misunderstood English interpretation of what Iyov actually said. Let's look at the context:

Job 14:1-14 (KJV)

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. 2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. 3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee? 4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; 6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. 8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; 9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.

10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The Hebrew of the highlighted phrase is "`ad biltiy shaamayim" and means "until a-failure of-[the]-skies." "Hashaamayim," created on Day 2, meaning "the skies," is the environment of the lights that were created on Day 4 of Creation. Such a failure would be with the dimming of those lights, such as in "the sun becoming black as sackcloth of hair, the moon becoming as blood, and the stars of heaven falling to the ground." It does NOT mean a "destruction of the skies!"

When one considers that biltiy comes from baalaah, its root, which in turn means "to become old; to wear out," biltiy may also refer to the skies becoming old and wearing out. This would imply the atmosphere's contamination in pollution and its need for a change. 

I personally don't have a problem with this argument since I believe that the first general Resurrection occurs AT His Second Coming, not 7 years before.

But, it doesn't. As I've said before, Rev. 20:5b does NOT refer to Rev. 20:5a, but to Rev. 20:4. Revelation 20:5a is more parenthetical, looking forward to the rest of the chapter. The Jewish way of thinking, and thus its literature, is not so chronological as it is teleological. It's PURPOSE-driven, not CAUSE-driven! Thus, they would follow the main points of an outline first before going into the subordinate points of the outline. We like to list the subordinate points after we've made one major point before going into the next major point.

Retrobyter, you did a good job here: I can only disagree in one point. I do wish I had your knowledge of Greek and Hebrew.

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

I will respond to you as I did with another member. Read this carefully and you will see clearly that the 1st resurrection is after the 1000 year period which is at the 2nd coming of Christ.

The book of Revelation does follow chronically, but within each chapter, there are passages that may have occurred at other times.

...

TM,  You started out in error, so there is no hope that you will end up in anything but error.  You made a bold statement (bolded above) for which you cannot prove with scripture. HOW DO YOU KNOW Revelation does not follow chronologically? 

I think it does, when one considers John's intermissions, prophecies given by the elders,  and parentheses. In other words, events in one chapter MOST CERTAINLY will take place after previous chapters and before later chapters. 

The truth is, John was SO CAREFUL with chronology, before he could write of the 7th seal being opened, he had to drop into an intermission (imagine a curtain closing) to rearrange the set (behind the curtain) to fit the next act: the 7th seal which will be the offical start of the 70th week. In the mind of God, TWO EVENTS must be accomplished before the 7th seal starts the 70th week: 

1. The 144,000 from Israel MUST be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments.

2. The CHURCH must be seen safely in heaven before God's wrath is displayed in the trumpets. 

This is just one example of John's chronology. 

Can you prove what you said by scripture?

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

In (Rev 20:1-6), this was not part of the chronological order of the story. This was a recapitulation of the history of the dragon. We see the exact same thing in chapter (Rev 12:1-8). The rest of the chapter beginning at verse 9 resumes with the timeline, but verse 1-8 is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon.

Sorry, TM, but you are mistaken again, not understanding John's timeline OR his parentheses, or what He was doing in Rev. 12.

Rev. 12 was Jesus introducing John to the Dragon, and what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. (The Dragon was mentioned 32 times in this chapter. )

However, Jesus CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID (years before) in his attempt to kill Jesus as a young boy, using King Herod. Those first 5 verses were a "history lesson" (God's word spoken to me) to John. They were about Jesus birth and the attempt on His life.

Next, 12:6, the fleeing is VERY MUCH in John's timeline: Jesus told those in Judea to FLEE the moment they see the abomination. (In Revelation the 7th trumpet marks the time of the abomination.) The 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to go to war with Satan, so again, those verses on the war in heaven are in the timeline. 

Rev. 20 starts with what had just happened, the resurrection of the Old Testament saints (at the 7th vial) , along with the two witnesses and those beheaded during the week. John did not see this resurrection so did not write of it: He wrote what came after: a synopsis. 

[TMarcum]

13 hours ago, Sister said:

TMarcum

I've answered you, and you have answered me.  Lets move on instead of going back around in circles.  I only believe that what we are discussing has not been revealed to you yet.   I don't know if you have read much of the OT before, but I can only refer you to some chapters.  The prophets of old spoke of this time to come of which we are discussing....the thousand years.  I am trying to prove that that the Old and New testaments agree in perfect harmony.

You deny that there is A REST coming.  A thousand years REST, after Christ returns.  You deny that there is a time of healing for Israel, and for the remnants of the nations to be free from wars and from oppression. You see Satan as not being locked up, but being destroyed at the Coming.

How do you explain this prophecy?

 

 Micah 4:1   But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

  Micah 4:2   And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

  Micah 4:3   And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

  Micah 4:4   But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

  Micah 4:5   For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

  Micah 4:6   In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

  Micah 4:7   And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

  Micah 4:8   And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

When have the nations not lifted up a sword against nations?  When has there never been war ?

Please answer.

Who is this that is going to judge and rebuke the nations?

Please answer.

Who is going to turn their weapons of war into instruments of gardening?

Please answer.

What do they need gardening tools for?

Please answer.

Who is this that was cast far off, that will be made a strong nation?

Please answer.

What is this "first dominion" that shall come?

Please answer.

 

 

Answer #1

The kingdom of Jesus was not a warring kingdom. It was a kingdom of peace and love. He taught the disciples to love their enemies. Not a nation of war and blood.

The next 2 verses clearly explain this prophecy. The period is not at the end of time. This was a prophecy concerning the coming of Jesus almost 2000 years ago. This is regarding Jesus bringing the teachings of the New Grace Covenant to the apostles. His gospel was one of peace, not of the sword. You can see this was the message of Jesus all through out the gospels. He said if any man smite you, turn ye the other cheek. He said to forgive a man 70 times 7, and not just 7 times 7.  This was the gospel and the followers of Christ lived by this rule. They never picked up swords, nor fought with the Romans. They gave their lives to the Romans for Christ sake.

Micah 4
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

 

Answer #2

The judgement was given because they did not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Jesus said they are condemned already because they do not believe in me. This is the judgment that is passed upon them. They were judged as sinners because they did not believe he is the Son of God (John 3:17-8)

It was fulfilled in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. This was written in a time of great grief of Israel when she was taken into captivity to Babylon around 550BC. Read the chapter 1-6 in book of Zechariah and it will make better sense to you.

 

Answer #3

The disciples turned the swords into plow shares and pruning hooks.

 

Answer #4

Turning the swords into plows was for the sewing of the gospel. Planting the seed, dunging the tree, to ensure that they bring forth fruit, some 30, some 60, some 100 fold. The message of the new testament was not that of the old. The followers of Christ did not take up the sword. Unlike the followers of God who lived under the Mosaic law.

 

Answer #5

It is the gentiles that were cast afar off that will be made a strong nation. By become children of of Abraham, heirs of the covenant of promise. This is the great nation referring to the nation of Israel according to the promise made to Abraham.

 

Answer #6

The first dominion is through Christ resurrection. He has dominion by his work on the cross. Christ reigns now. He is on his throne now. He is in his kingdom now. Do not look for another 1000 before this will happen. He is King of the Jews now.

 

[iamlamad]

44 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

Lets discuss Johns vision of (Rev 20:4). Look at this carefully, John saw thrones. This was present tense in this portion of the recapitulation. It was real time in his vision. And when he saw the judgment that was given to them that sat upon the throne. This was also still present tense. He saw this as present tense in his vision which was at the time of the same battle of chapter 19 where the beast and FP have already been thrown into the LoF.

But when he went on to where he said that he saw the souls that were "beheaded", the beheading was past tense in his vision. The term "beheaded" implies verb action that occurred in the past of his vision. Let's go on. Now look at the term "lived" and "reigned". These are also verb actions that implied they occurred in the past, as they are verbs actions of past tense from the time that when John saw souls in heaven.

My friend the souls that John saw that were beheaded occurred over 1000 years ago, at which point they "lived" and "reigned" with Christ. John saw in his vision that these souls had already lived and reigned with Christ over 1000 years ago. And now is the time of the judgement of the dragon.

So, you are incorrect with your interpretation. This is why you need to be paying better attention to what you are reading, so you can actually understand it. The 1st resurrection was when he saw the thrones, and he saw the souls that were there to judge the dragon as well as everyone else at the GWT of judgement. The 1st resurrection was not before the 1000 years, it was after the 1000 years were over when he saw the souls had already lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. This is why the 1st resurrection is not until the 1000 years is finished (Rev 20:5)

Rev 20:4 And I saw (present tense) thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw (present tense) the souls of them that were beheaded (past tense) for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not (past tense) worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received (past tense) his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years.

Sorry, TM but this is a complete mess of human imagination. 

Let's start at the bottom with I saw: It is   Speech: Verb - Tense: Second Aorist - Voice: Active - Mood: Indicative

An Aorist Active Indicative always speaks of an event started and finished in the past.  John wrote AFTER He saw. So of course when he SAW was before he wrote. 

They SAT:   Speech: Verb - Tense: Second Aorist - Voice: Active - Mood: Indicative So it happened in the past.  How long past? The timing of chapter 20 is JUST AFTER the battle of Armageddon and the start of the Millennial reign.  The believers caught up in the pretrib rapture, the Old Testament believers (along with the two witness and the beheaded) caught up at the 7th vial are now these that sat on thrones judging. This shows us the Millennial reign (in the vision) had started. (In reality it is still future).

Was given:   Tense: Aorist - Voice: Passive - Mood: Indicative  Still an event that happened in the past. 

I saw the souls - Sorry, no verb here: the translators messed up making it LOOK like a verb in English.

It should be obvious in the vision John saw all these things in his immediate past. (He wrote AFTER he saw.)

Were beheaded:   Tense: Perfect - Voice: Passive - Mood: Participle Sorry, I don't know enough Greek to give an educated answer here.  Maybe Retrobyter could assist.  I do know that some Greek verbs SEEM to give away timing information but in the Greek they don't: as if no "tense" at all: one Greek scholar wrote: "Not inflected to show tense." It could be past, present or future: the Greek gives no information. 

The point John is making is that the Millennial reign has JUST BEGUN, so John could write that will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. "Lived" and "reigned" are both Aorist Active Indicative which shows us this living and reigning BEGAN in the past. John tells us it will continue until the 1000 years has ended.   Many times the exact meaning in Greek cannot be expressed completly in English. All our verbs SHOW tense. 

John used this Aorist, Active, Indicative many times: MOST of His verbs are of this type.  For the most part, we should get timing information by John's first mention of something. An example is when does God's wrath start? At the 6th seal and in chapter 11, both verbs are of this Aorist Active Indicative type. But the first mention of wrath is at the 6th seal, so we can be sure that is where God's wrath will begin.

I will caution you, for doctrine, DON'T go by our English translations without studying the Greek verbs behind the English.