A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 6/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/17/2020 at 11:27 AM, not an echo said:

I have the same tendency, and I agree that the verse in question is not vague, but is it an indicator of the chronology of last day's events?

 

There is no other reason for John to record it there, other than that is when it was spoken.  Unlike the surrounding material, John is quoting something he heard at that point in time of the vision.  The most accurate chronology we have in scripture comes from Jesus in Matthew 24, and what John presents aligns with that exactly.

Hello again wingnut-,

I wasn't able the other day to finish (if that's ever possible!) my reply to your above comments, so I would like to pick up kinda where I had to leave off.

Concerning your last sentence, I believe the only way that I could see this is if I took the event of the 6th Seal and Matthew 24:29-31 to be of the Second Coming, and I just can't see this.  Is this how you are seeing things?

As I see things, it is The Revelation that is the most accurate chronology of last day's prophecy that we have in Scripture.  It is the most comprehensive account of the last days in the Bible.  As I believe it is in chronological order, if so, this would make it a grid, given to us by God, into which every end time prophecy will fit and find its order.  By this I mean, if The Revelation is in such order, when all end time prophecies have been fulfilled, nothing will have occurred outside of this order.  I know this is a pretty huge statement, and it takes some different understandings to see, but since I've seen it, I haven't been able to unsee it---not yet anyway.  Relating to Matthew 24, I find three basic sections, and I interpret these to be linked with and ordered in The Revelation as follows:

#1---Matthew 24:4-14 with Revelation 6:1-11 (the first five seals/THE ERA OF THE CHURCH)

#2---Matthew 24:29-51 with Revelation 6:12-7:17 (the 6th Seal/THE RAPTURE EVENT)

#3---Matthew 24:15-28 with Revelation 11:1-19:21 (DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK)

In my second post of this thread, I have a list of threads that I have started that intertwine with all of this.  Of course, I know my position is not in accord with any of the popular views, and I can understand why one's initial inclination might be to just dismiss it.  I would just ask anyone to prayerfully consider what I have put forth.  I freely admit that I may be wrong.  I'm not sure where I first heard this, but someone has said, "When it comes to the subject of the rapture, a few are so sure about their particular view, that if things turn out differently, they will be disappointed."  I am not yet that sure.  I have yet to encounter a view that is without some difficulties, and neither is my own, but I feel it has brought me closer to understanding what the Bible actually teaches than any other so far.  If the work I have done in my personal pursuit of understanding can be helpful to others, it is certainly in the spirit of helpfulness that I have put forth what I have put forth.  And wingnut-, I'm sure most anyone on the Worthy Forums would say similarly.  It is all so very interesting, and we are living in such interesting times.  The most important thing is for us to know that we have been saved and to know that in Christ, and by His strength, we will be just fine, however things come to pass---and I believe we will agree on this.

Got to hit the sack for now.  Hoping to be able to respond to the rest of your comments tomorrow... 

[wingnut-]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence, I believe the only way that I could see this is if I took the event of the 6th Seal and Matthew 24:29-31 to be of the Second Coming, and I just can't see this.  Is this how you are seeing things?

 

Yes, that is how I see it as they describe the exact same signs, including the lesson of the fig tree.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see things, it is The Revelation that is the most accurate chronology of last day's prophecy that we have in Scripture. 

 

The issue of chronology in Revelation is what separates most theories on the timing surrounding end times events.  There are numerous things that to me, make it clear that it is not chronological.  One of the clearest examples would be the 7th trumpet and what the results of this trumpet are, along with the three woes and their location in Revelation.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

In my second post of this thread, I have a list of threads that I have started that intertwine with all of this.

 

If I have the time I will look it over so I have a better understanding where you are coming from.  One of the biggest issues people face in these discussions is their overall view can interfere with understanding another persons perspective.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, I know my position is not in accord with any of the popular views, and I can understand why one's initial inclination might be to just dismiss it.

 

Neither is mine, so we have that in common.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

I would just ask anyone to prayerfully consider what I have put forth.

 

That's my hope as well.

[not an echo]

On 6/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/17/2020 at 11:27 AM, not an echo said:

If it is, this would indicate that the rapture is occurring after six of the seven vials of God's wrath have been poured out.  Do you see any conflict with this and other Scripture?

 

I do not.

Hello wingnut-,

Hopefully I will be able to get a little further today, probably in installments .

For some clarity, if I am understanding you correctly, you take Jesus' words in Revelation 16:15 as being a chronological indicator (my words) of when the rapture will occur, because this is spoken in the verse just prior to a reference to Armageddon (Rev. 16:16).  As I indicated, it is because of other things that are written that I feel this should be taken as being a mere (howbeit serious) reinforcement of the importance of always being watchful or ready---meaning in the sense of Christ's return for the rapture being imminent.

One conflict I see relates to Jesus' words as recorded in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse.  In Luke 21, it reads:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

I see Jesus' statement here as being directly related to what He said in verses 25-27 (which concerns Christ's Sign Return/Matt. 24:29-31), which in turn is directly related to the 6th Seal event, which in turn I see as being directly linked to the rapture event.  In John's account of the yet future fulfillment of all of this---at the time of the 6th Seal event---we see the just escaped Church, standing before the Lord.  Note from Revelation 7:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed in white robes, and palms in their hands;

In I Thessalonians 5, Paul wrote concerning those who would not escape.  Consider,

  1   But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  AND THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE.

Intertwined with this, I see those that Jesus speaks of in Luke's account as being those who will not escape.  Again, from Luke 21:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things, which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Also, I see these as being the same people John writes of in the 6th Seal event.  Consider from Revelation 6:

 15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 17  For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?

Further, I see "all the tribes" of Matthew's parallel account (24:30) as linking with "all the tribes" of the 6th Seal account (Rev. 7:4) and the gathered elect of Matthew's account (24:31) as linking with the gathered multitude of the 6th Seal account (Rev. 7:9/II Thess. 2:1).  For me, there are way too many prophetic points of convergence that come together relating to the 6th Seal event for me to see Revelation 16:15 as being a chronological indicator.  Moreover, all these points of convergence happen at the opening of the 6th Seal, before the 7th Seal is opened.  As I have written in other threads, I see the opening of the 7th Seal as marking the formal beginning of the period of the Day of the Lord (e.g., Acts 2:20, I Thess. 5:2-9, Rev. 6:17).  Realize that I see the 7th Seal as being opened later on the same day as the 6th Seal is opened, making the statement of those left behind (Rev. 6:17) all the more true indeed.

I understand that you may not be able to agree with my reasonings because of your own reasonings, but I hope that perhaps you will begin to see that I have legit reasonings for what I am seeing, reasonings (especially connected with my OP as a whole) that I have never seen put forth by the popular views.

[not an echo]

On 6/17/2020 at 11:27 AM, not an echo said:

But wingnut-, one of these conditions was that the flood had not yet come.

Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

On 6/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, wingnut- said:

That's exactly my point, all these things that were going on, life as usual, were occurring before the flood had come.  The day Noah entered the ark, life as usual stopped, it will be the same at His coming.  It is not some slow process, as Paul tells us it is sudden destruction, as was the flood, because it wasn't the rain from above that caught them by surprise, it was the water that came from below.

 

I Thessalonians 5:3  While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Hey again, wingnut-,

Just to kinda keep my bearings, this part of our discussion still stems from our discussion concerning whether Revelation 16:15 should be seen as a chronological indicator.  It is evident that this 16th chapter revolves around John's account of the vials of God's wrath being poured out, and with verse 15, six of these vials have been poured out.  I'm not even close to being able to wrap my head around how that six vials of God's wrath can be poured out (not to mention everything else that has occurred up to this point in The Revelation) and things being "life as usual."  I feel that I must be missing some perspective that you have, or something.

We know that with Noah, life was as usual while the ark was preparing.  No rain from above, no "fountains of the great deep broken up" (Gen. 7:11) from below.  We know that Noah was preparing for what God had told him to prepare for and that he, as "a preacher of righteousness" (II Pet. 2:5), warned the world to prepare.  Year after year, but no rain, no fountains of the great deep braking up---no flood.  I can imagine the mentality of the world.  "Yeah, yeah, Noah's talking all this talk about the end coming, but what do we have?  Peace and safety."  Decade after decade Noah continued to build and to prepare and to warn.  And I can still imagine the mentality (and yawn) of the world.  "Yeah, yeah, still all this talk about the end coming, but what do we have?  Peace and safety."  It was an evil world.  And though "the earth was filled with violence" (Gen. 6:11), I can still see the people remarking, "Peace and safety."  But, that all changed when Noah and the rest boarded the ark.  Now, for Noah and the rest, there was peace and safety, but for the rest of the world, sudden destruction.  When I think of Paul's words to the Thessalonians, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety" (I Thess. 5:3), this is reflective of the mentality of our present world.  We could be on the threshold of a war (and often are) and the general mentality of the world is "peace and safety."  "Oh, ain't nobody gonna mess with us too much, because of our military.  Let's go get some ribs and a pitcher of beer.  Wonder what's going down on pay-per-view tonight?" (and a couple of expletives would be thrown in for good measure).  And wingnut-, a true God fearing person can quote more Scripture than what most in the world will read in a year.  But, as it was in the days of Noah, sudden destruction shall come upon them "as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape."

Of course, a lot more could be said, but got to go (again ) for now...

[not an echo]

On 6/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/17/2020 at 12:50 PM, not an echo said:

For me wingnut-, when I consider what Scripture says about the coming storm and the importance of being ready for the escape, it's easy for me to see Jesus' words in Revelation 16:15 as being a mere reinforcement to the readers of the need to be always ready to go

 

Ok, but again we are running into the same issue, in which you agreed with me previously.  If it were in fact an escape, then every person who is born again is already "ready to go".  Now it sounds to me like we are in agreement on the matter of eternal security, at least as far as God will not forsake us, and on that basis there is nothing more we need to do to be received by Him.  This fact solidifies that we are preparing for something else, and all the admonitions in scripture to be alert and/or sober point to something other than an escape. 

Not for sure if I'm fully understanding you here, but I will go with what I perceive.

It kinda seems that the escape that you mention in the second sentence may have to do with not facing eternal damnation, which, if a person is born-again, they are indeed "ready to go,"  well, to Heaven that is!  Relating to this, Jesus speaks in many places concerning how ready we are when we are saved.  A stand out for me is recorded in John 5:

 24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;  but is passed from death unto life.

The "something else" that you mention relates to at least two other things, as I see it.

One, the else of our having to give an account to the Lord (Rom. 14:10-12), when our works will be tried (I Cor. 3:13-15).  According to my understanding, God's children will be rewarded or suffer loss as a result of how our works stand up.  I long wondered how this could factor into our experience in Heaven, because we would have some concept of our reward or loss and this would connect with the possibility of us having some sorrow in Heaven, which does not square well with Revelation 21:4.  To me, there also seemed to be a connection with this and our laying up for ourselves "treasures in Heaven" (Matt. 6:20) which Jesus taught us to do.  Again, we would have some concept of whether we had been obedient to His instruction, and if not, this would also connect with the possibility of us having some sorrow in Heaven.  In time, as I considered the time of Christ's Millennial Reign, the parables of the talents and the pounds, and what Paul taught, I started connecting the dots.  Now understand, I believe that all of God's children will be in their glorified bodies at that time (e.g., Phil. 3:20-21, I Jn. 3:2) and our existence will be as royalty, but based upon various scriptural evidences, I believe that we will still have our memories during this time.  I can see the importance of this being so, because we can then know more fully the full extent of what Christ effected for us on the cross at Calvary.  And because He is going to conform us to His image (Rom. 8:29), I can see what ever that we may presently lack in this respect being effected for us during that 1000 year period of time.  But, there will be no jealousy, there will be no mully-grubbing.  Jesus talked of a hundredfold increase that I see as connecting with what we have done for His Kingdom purposes (Matt. 19:27:30).  And for God's children, it will be a delightful time to be a part of His Millennial Kingdom.  Just a little indicator of how I see things:  I can see the widow that gave the two mites being Secretary of the Treasury during that time!  And all of us will be serving in various capacities.  It is a very interesting subject to me, with lots of possibilities.  But again, I see us as having our memories during this time.  I don't see this as something that Satan will be able to bother us concerning, as he will be bound for that 1000 years.  I just see it as a time when we will be able to reflect some, and a 1000 years is a long time to be able to reflect on things that we could wish we had done differently.  I wish now that I had done some things differently when I was younger, but I press on, like Paul did and taught us to do (Phil 3:13-14).  But, he still remembered, and I still remember.  And I believe we will all still remember, until after the time of Christ's Reign, when all our memories will be wiped away.  It is then (in accord with Rev. 21:1-5ff), that the following will be fulfilled, as recorded in Isaiah 65:

 17  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;  and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Two, the else of our escaping what was never intended for the Church in the first place.  It seems that those who are persuaded that the rapture will be pre-Daniel's 70th Week (unfortunately popularly termed pre-trib) often get a bad rap because it is thought that we are not wanting to face tribulation and especially the worst of the worst.  Perhaps it is thought that we think  that if we keep believing that we will not go through that time, maybe the possibility will go away.  Well, we know that things don't quite work that way.  And, none of this even borders on any kind of mentality that I have ever had.  To me, the thing of whether the Church will continue on the earth through Daniel's 70th Week is less about what the Church may have to go through and more about the fulfilling of what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation (e.g. Dan. 9:24-27).  As I see it, it is also very logical that since the Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of this prophecy, it won't be a part of the 70th Week.  And, I believe I may need to clarify that when I say Church, I am not talking about any building, but what Jesus told His disciples that He would build (Matt. 16:18) and what 3000 Jews were added to on the Day of Pentecost---something they had not prior to that time been a part of (Acts 2:41-47).  Of this Church, I am most grateful to be a part.

On 6/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/17/2020 at 12:50 PM, not an echo said:

I am, however, a little curious over your last sentence, "Since I already have that covered, then it begs the question as to why all the admonitions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc. ?"  I'm kinda thinking that perhaps it is something that I said that spurred this, but the Bible is replete with such admonitions as well.  There is a very important reason for these admonitions, as I see things.  Kinda interested in what you see the reason being.

 

No my friend, it wasn't something you said, I am referring to all the scriptures that speak to these things, which I agree are very important.  The reason we are given the instructions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc., is because the church has suffered persecution from its foundation up to the present time, and it will continue until the end.  When the beast begins his 3 1/2 year reign, it will touch the entire church, not just those in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.

I know you know by now that I don't see things this way, but I may be wrong.  I can appreciate your acknowledgment that the Church "has suffered persecution from its foundation up to the present time."  I have often felt that when any one of us enters the Portals of Glory, we will be able to look back and remark, "Whew, that was tough!!!"  Not just because of persecution, but because of the myriad trials that God's children experience in this life.  I'm guessing that you don't see Revelation 7:9-17 as being the raptured Church in Heaven, but I do.  And concerning the elder's statement in verse 14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation,"  I see this as being quite appropriately said of the Church as whole, from a worldwide and historical perspective.

Finally, Paul says something about the rapture of the Church in II Thessalonians 2 that I would like to put forth in a little different light.  Note my understanding in parenthesis:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as the the Day (strict sense, like Monday) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that Christ's Second Coming was not "at hand," as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different than being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled.  I hope you will consider the account again, from this perspective.

In light of how I am seeing the forest of prophecies that bear upon the rapture, I have to reject statements, suggestions, and other translations that would have "the Day of Christ is at hand" to read something like "the Day of the Lord is present, or already come."  The word "Christ" in the King James Version is not a mis-translation, but is correct according to the Textus Receptus manuscript from which it was translated.  And "at hand" is also being put forth in alternate ways.  I'm not what some may call a KJV only.  I've just done a lot of snooping, and I think we need to be careful about allowing this portion of the KJV to be changed from the way that it is.  This is no reflection on anything I've seen you say wingnut-.  I'm just saying...  

Hey, got to go.  Catch up with you again later...

[wingnut-]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:17 PM, not an echo said:

One conflict I see relates to Jesus' words as recorded in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse.  In Luke 21, it reads:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

 

Hello brother,

I'm glad you started with the Luke passage, because really this gets us right to the heart of the matter.  What this really boils down to is, what we perceive the "escape" is about.  So let's go over the information that defines "all these things" which we are escaping.  The first thing we have to address though, is how we accept scripture individually, because this ultimately colors how we view it.  Some are in the habit of picking and choosing what scripture applies to them and what doesn't, I am not one of those people.  I believe every word applies to all of us, so in regards to Luke, from the individuals present when Jesus spoke these words up until the present and going forward are the intended audience. 

 

Luke 21:5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

 

The temple was destroyed as Jesus foretold them it would be.  Now we know from Matthew's account that He was speaking with His disciples privately.  At the time of the temple's destruction, some of these people were already dead from persecution, but some were still alive.  Did they escape it?  Which ones escaped it?  And if so, how?

 

Luke 21: 8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

 

Did His audience escape the false messiah's?  How about us, have we?  In my 14 years here at worthy, there have been literally hundreds of individuals that came to this site claiming to be Jesus.  That's just this site, there are hundreds more that never came to this site but have made national news as cult leaders claiming to be the messiah.  So, have we escaped this thing?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

 

Did they escape wars and tumults?  Have we?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Did they escape any of these things?  Have we?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.

 

This specific section and what follows are the main issue here, and to avoid this post getting too lengthy I am going to sum up my point here and not continue going through the entire chapter and all that follows.  We can see plainly in this section, that the promised "escape" has nothing to do with physical relocation, as these individuals who were present while He spoke were told specifically that they will be taken captive and delivered up to their enemies.

 

Luke 21:16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.

 

Right here, they are told that some of them will be put to death.  Yet, look what the very next sentence says.

 

Luke 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.

 

Executed, but not a hair of their head will perish?

 

Luke 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

So what we have is a promised "escape", in which some will be executed, without a hair on their head perishing, and by enduring they gain their lives...... in death.  Everyone should take their time and carefully consider what this means.

 

 

[wingnut-]

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just to kinda keep my bearings, this part of our discussion still stems from our discussion concerning whether Revelation 16:15 should be seen as a chronological indicator.  It is evident that this 16th chapter revolves around John's account of the vials of God's wrath being poured out, and with verse 15, six of these vials have been poured out.  I'm not even close to being able to wrap my head around how that six vials of God's wrath can be poured out (not to mention everything else that has occurred up to this point in The Revelation) and things being "life as usual."  I feel that I must be missing some perspective that you have, or something.

 

What you are experiencing is a common issue when two people with very different positions discuss these matters.  To understand what you are missing you would have to understand my overall beliefs on the subject, at this point you only have my timing on the gathering itself, and this conflicts with other areas of your position, but it doesn't conflict with mine.  Whatever issues you believe are contrary to this possibility, I can explain with scripture, the question is whether you can look at it with a clean slate.

One of the main points of concern here are related to the sequence of events, and what our individual understanding of those events represent.  There are two main aspects to these things, one is physical, and the other is spiritual.  How we decide to interpret each event and which aspect it represents largely determines the direction our beliefs will go.  For example, take the mark of the beast, is it physical or spiritual?  If I believe it is physical, and you believe it is spiritual, then we come to two very different conclusions in regards to everything related to this mark.  These decisions ultimately lead to more theories and/or beliefs than I can even imagine.  As I explained before, I take scripture at face value, which includes our instructions as to how to determine what is true and what is not true in regards to it.  By that I mean, how one "tests" something against scripture, if a belief hinges on a single verse with no supporting scripture, it simply won't do.  God built witnesses into scripture for a reason, and as Paul explained in his letter to Timothy, every single word holds meaning.

So, in regards to Noah, let's just look at the facts.

1.  The Second Coming will be just like it was in Noah's day.

2.  It is sudden destruction, life will be going on as usual right up until the storm hits.  It is not slow and gradual, it is immediate and permanent. (This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to follow it.)

3.  The Second Coming and the gathering occur at or near the same moment.  Every mention of them is together in scripture, they are linked.

 

Now this is how the concept of Noah breaks down in my view, as far as what the event itself represents concerning future application.  The ark represents safety and security against the coming storm and destruction of the planet by the flood, which God is doing.  The ark is the equivalent of our guarantee in the Holy Spirit, available for everyone who accepts Christ's gift of salvation.

Noah and his family took years to build this ark, representative of our personal walk with Christ as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  Noah continued to warn the people that a storm was coming, just as we are instructed to deliver the gospel message to people, so they can build their "ark" to escape the coming storm.  The storm represents God's judgement on the wicked, not the righteous.  Since we know scripture tells us no one is righteous, that would seem ominous except for the fact scripture tells us though we are not righteous, we are MADE righteous.  How are we made righteous?  By the seal of the Holy Spirit, our guarantee, our ark.  Noah and his family were not removed from the earth, or going through the flood, they just were protected from the judgement by the ark, just as believers will not be subject to any of God's judgement in the future, we have our arks as well.

This is also represented in other Old Testament events, such as the 10 plagues on Egypt.  When the death angel passed over Egypt, all those who had covered their doorframes with the Blood of the Lamb were "passed over", untouched by the plague.  There is a consistency to how God deals with people in scripture, and removing people from the earth is not consistent with this age, or any prior age.  It only appears in scripture as a future event, at the end of this age, and the end of the age is the harvest of the earth.

[not an echo]

On 6/23/2020 at 3:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/22/2020 at 10:30 PM, not an echo said:

Of course, if one is saved, he is ready as far as salvation is concerned, but we know that everyone that thinks he or she is saved is not.  Paul said, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith..." (II Cor. 13:5).  All that think they are ready may not be.

 

II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.

 

In the context of the passage, Paul begins by pointing out that there were members in this church that were not bearing fruit.

 

II Corinthians 13: 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.

 

So what Paul addresses here is an issue of not turning from sin, and that these members apparently not only continued in their sin, but also called Paul's teachings into question in an effort to justify their sinful nature.  Not only is Paul challenging them to test the spirit in themselves, but to test the validity of his teachings against scripture to determine whether his message comes from God or not.  Personally, I disagree that people are not aware of whom they serve.

 

Hey wingnut-,

I remember the first time I came across Paul's words, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith..."  It was the first time I read the Bible through.  I was 25, at my bottom, and God was challenging me to give Him the same chance I had given the world.  I had had two salvation type experiences before I was a teen---one a genuine---one a counterfeit---and I was not dealt with right either time!  Now, some 15 years later, I had not grown in the Lord at all.  I was essentially still a delivery room stage child of God.  These things I came to realize in retrospect. 

Now, whereas I was at that time endeavoring to get my life straightened up, I came to the realization that this was not what made someone saved.  It is only by what God did for us through Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary that we can be saved.  And Jesus spoke of being saved as being "born-again."  Had I been born-again?  Was Jesus Christ "in" (II Cor. 13:5) me?  I had to go back and consider those two experiences that I had had years earlier.  Was either of these a genuine salvation experience, or did I need to do something more?  It took me a good while to reconcile this, but during this time I grew in my understanding and God used all of this experience for my good.

What I am getting at by this wingnut, is that God has a remarkable way of using His Word to help us in our lives.  The first time I read II Corinthians 13:5, I don't believe I thought much about who it was that wrote it or who it was wrote to or all the ifs, ands, and buts about it.  It was just the Word of God to me!  And, what the Word of God was saying to me was this:  "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;  prove your own selves.  Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"  Now, in retrospect I can say truly, that whatever my greater understanding of this verse is today, my understanding of it then and personal application of it to in my life then was no less legit or scriptural.

Concerning your last sentence, for me, in the interval of my life between the time that I was saved and the time that I got my life truly right with the Lord, it never occurred to me to even think in terms of whether I was serving anyone!  If someone had asked me, "Are you serving the Lord?" I can certainly see myself replying that I believed in God and in Jesus Christ and the Bible.  But "serving" the Lord?  That would have been kinda in the category of a foreign concept to me, or something that preachers and singers were supposed to do, ya know.  Later, as I began to serve the Lord, I got a little exposure to the controversy of "Easy Believism" and "Lordship Salvation."  I came away feeling that when one comes to Christ, they certainly should be willing to make Him Lord of their life (and I certainly would have been willing if I had been asked at the time of my experience) but even at 25, when I was endeavoring to do this, my concept of what all it entailed was vague.  Now, at 62, the concept of walking with God, abiding in Christ, and being a disciple of His is very real and meaningful to me.  Ironically, this has become the premier interest of my life, as reflected under my forum avatar.

Also wingnut, in light of Paul's statement, "And no marvel;  for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (II Cor. 11:14), can you see how that some who may think they are serving the Lord are in fact deceived?  So much more could be said.

I'm thinking that I probably need to work a little harder at keeping my posts more concise.  If I don't, I will never be able to be timely with my replies .

Hey, do you have a testimony thread or a thread outlining the more full extent of how you are seeing things?  That would really interest me...  

[wingnut-]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Two, the else of our escaping what was never intended for the Church in the first place.  It seems that those who are persuaded that the rapture will be pre-Daniel's 70th Week (unfortunately popularly termed pre-trib) often get a bad rap because it is thought that we are not wanting to face tribulation and especially the worst of the worst.  Perhaps it is thought that we think  that if we keep believing that we will not go through that time, maybe the possibility will go away.  Well, we know that things don't quite work that way.  And, none of this even borders on any kind of mentality that I have ever had.

 

I skipped over your first point because I already addressed that in a previous post, so to avoid repetition I am just going to jump to this area.  In regards to the above, I am not questioning your motives, and if you got that impression from my posts all I can say is that nothing I have to say is intended to be received as such.  Up until about a decade ago, I believed in the pre-trib position myself, and it had nothing to do with fear.  It had more to do with programming, as this is what was put into my head and reinforced for decades, so I accepted it.  There are very few churches within the entire nation I live that teach anything else, and for those who attend seminary, every major one in existence teaches this theory, as was the case when I got my degree in eschatology.  The funny thing is, if I were trying for that degree today they would fail me, despite the fact I understand a great deal more about prophecy now than I did then.

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

To me, the thing of whether the Church will continue on the earth through Daniel's 70th Week is less about what the Church may have to go through and more about the fulfilling of what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation (e.g. Dan. 9:24-27).  As I see it, it is also very logical that since the Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of this prophecy, it won't be a part of the 70th Week. 

 

I understand the mentality of your position, having once believed the same thing, however, I now see the flaws in it.

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

And, I believe I may need to clarify that when I say Church, I am not talking about any building, but what Jesus told His disciples that He would build (Matt. 16:18) and what 3000 Jews were added to on the Day of Pentecost---something they had not prior to that time been a part of (Acts 2:41-47).  Of this Church, I am most grateful to be a part.

 

I'm unclear as to what you are saying above, so I am unsure how to comment other than ask for clarification.  Are you suggesting that  the "Church" was not made up of Jews until Pentecost, and that these 3000 were the first Jews in the Church?

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm guessing that you don't see Revelation 7:9-17 as being the raptured Church in Heaven, but I do.  And concerning the elder's statement in verse 14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation,"  I see this as being quite appropriately said of the Church as whole, from a worldwide and historical perspective.

 

That is correct, the gathering comes much later, on the last day as Jesus foretold.  These individuals that came out of the great tribulation were killed during the beast's war on the saints.  This is why they are there, and not here.

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Finally, Paul says something about the rapture of the Church in II Thessalonians 2 that I would like to put forth in a little different light.  Note my understanding in parenthesis:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as the the Day (strict sense, like Monday) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

It's interesting, how we can see something so plainly stated, and not see it.  For the majority of my life I read this countless number of times, but some invisible veil prevented me from seeing it myself.  These three verses are evidence that excludes the pre-trib theory from even being a possibility, which is why it is one of two end times theories that I see as impossible, the other being preterism.

The day Paul discusses, is in regards to His coming and our gathering, and that day shall not come, until after the falling away and the beast is revealed.  This places the gathering at some point beyond the abomination of desolation, and after what is widely considered the mid point, during the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation.

 

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled.

 

Actually Paul is comforting them not to be troubled by false teachings that claim they missed the gathering, and he then lays out some events that must come first as a guideline, reinforcing that he had shared these things with them before.

 

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm not what some may call a KJV only.  I've just done a lot of snooping, and I think we need to be careful about allowing this portion of the KJV to be changed from the way that it is.  This is no reflection on anything I've seen you say wingnut-. 

 

Fortunately some friendships in my youth led to me being fluent in Greek, so arguments regarding the translation of words have zero impact on me.  There are some on this site, who have admitted that if I spoke to them in Greek they would have no clue what I said, yet still think they can convince me that the proper translation is something other than what anyone fluent in Greek says it is.  I love my KJV, there is something very comforting in the poetry of the language to me, perhaps nostalgia.  However, for ease of reading and assurance that anyone who reads my posts understands, I use the ESV translation here.  I prefer this translation above all others because it uses the most literal translation of the Greek and Hebrew.

 

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey, do you have a testimony thread or a thread outlining the more full extent of how you are seeing things?  That would really interest me...

 

You know, I had my testimony posted on here for many years, but a few software upgrades ago it was lost.  All that remained were some replies to it, so I had the board moderators delete the remnants of it at that time.  A year or so ago I intended to post an updated version, typed it all out, pasted it onto the site, but then decided not to submit it.  I have good reasons for not doing so, not because I am ashamed of any part of it myself, but to preserve the integrity of others that cannot be omitted from it.

Over 14 years you would think I would have a lot of material on here, which I do, but I have not created very many threads of my own in all that time, mostly I just engage in someone else's thread when something catches my interest.  I am more than willing to discuss any aspect of this that you want, but it would be difficult to compile an entire end times presentation in a single thread, there are so many complex parts.  This is your thread though, so on that basis we can discuss anything you want.