A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:28 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 10:57 PM, not an echo said:

Two, the else of our escaping what was never intended for the Church in the first place.  It seems that those who are persuaded that the rapture will be pre-Daniel's 70th Week (unfortunately popularly termed pre-trib) often get a bad rap because it is thought that we are not wanting to face tribulation and especially the worst of the worst.  Perhaps it is thought that we think  that if we keep believing that we will not go through that time, maybe the possibility will go away.  Well, we know that things don't quite work that way.  And, none of this even borders on any kind of mentality that I have ever had.

 

I skipped over your first point because I already addressed that in a previous post, so to avoid repetition I am just going to jump to this area.  In regards to the above, I am not questioning your motives, and if you got that impression from my posts all I can say is that nothing I have to say is intended to be received as such.  Up until about a decade ago, I believed in the pre-trib position myself, and it had nothing to do with fear.  It had more to do with programming, as this is what was put into my head and reinforced for decades, so I accepted it.  There are very few churches within the entire nation I live that teach anything else, and for those who attend seminary, every major one in existence teaches this theory, as was the case when I got my degree in eschatology.  The funny thing is, if I were trying for that degree today they would fail me, despite the fact I understand a great deal more about prophecy now than I did then.

It's all good wingnut-, I understand and have enjoyed our discussions...

On 6/27/2020 at 7:28 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 10:57 PM, not an echo said:

To me, the thing of whether the Church will continue on the earth through Daniel's 70th Week is less about what the Church may have to go through and more about the fulfilling of what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation (e.g. Dan. 9:24-27).  As I see it, it is also very logical that since the Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of this prophecy, it won't be a part of the 70th Week. 

 

I understand the mentality of your position, having once believed the same thing, however, I now see the flaws in it.

Of course, this is just one of many things that have made for an interesting element of how I now see things.  It is because of what I felt were flaws that I began my own search.  I guess I could say this a little differently.  You know, the first time I took responsibility for what was in the Bible for myself, I encountered various things that I had to rethink.  And, concerning teachings about the last days that I had grown up with, I never questioned anything (that I remember) till I read the Bible through the first time.  And for me, I just saw some dots that seemed to connect, dots that weren't being connected by the view I had grown up with.  Moreover, the dots that I felt connected, I wasn't seeing connected by any view that I was able to discover.  Hey, and I was a "clean slate" person.

As I set forth to read the Bible through for the first time myself, I had the mentality that I didn't care what I had been taught---that didn't make anything so.  I thought, "You know, if I continue to believe what I believe just because that is the way I was raised, well, a Buddhist is just as noble for remaining a Buddhist, a Hindu is just as noble remaining a Hindu, an atheist is just as noble for remaining a atheist."  I even called into question whether The Bible was so!  I mean, what makes The Bible so???  Cause Dad said so?  Or my beloved Grandfather said so?  Cause this preacher that I grew up respecting said so???  Lot's of dads and beloved grandfathers are wrong.  Lot's of respectable preachers are wrong.  I mean, I had to come to grips afresh if there was even a God!!!  I thought, "Well, I'll just see what the atheists have to say.  So, in my snooping around (this was 37 years ago wingnut-, when I was 25) I heard about this book entitled, "The Case Against God."  I looked for it at Readmore.  No luck.  I looked for it at Waldenbooks.  I looked for it at our local public library.  Of course, we didn't have the Internet then, so I couldn't Goggle it!  But I was on a mission.  I called the public library of a familiar city 40 miles away.  They had it.  I had to join the library (I believe it cost me $25/a pretty good sum back then) just to check it out.  I got it, read it through.  Was a little bit  bothered (for a few days), because it made a lot of good points.  When I was finished with it, I took it back to the library and never checked out another book there!  Not cause I was upset or anything.  That's just all I was needing from there.

All I know is this wingnut- (and all)---If there was a God, I was seeking Him.  And nothing mattered to me but what He said and how He directed me.  And that has been me for 37 years.  And now, this is where I'm at.   Hey, I may be wrong, but He knows that and why and all the ifs, ands, and buts!  And I feel easy.  And teachable.  And I have peace.  And sometimes I don't know the answer.  But I know this---The God of The Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He's my God.  The God that put on a robe of flesh and did what He did for me on the cross at Calvary, He's my God---and He has done right by me.  And it all started when I was 25 and at my bottom and He got my attention with the inspiration to give Him the same chance I had given the world.  So, that's what I did.  And, that's what I would encourage anyone to do.  And be assured (and I'm believing you know this), God knows just what to do from there.

Well, wingnut-, I didn't mean to write a pamphlet, I just got started and have enjoyed a little time of reminiscing.  I'll catch up with ya later.  Got to go change a stinking drive belt on my riding mower!!!  I'll sure be glad when we get to Heaven...  

Edited August 30, 2020 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Hello wingnut- (and all),

Well, it's been a long week for me.  The pandemic has resulted in my place of employment being cut to a skeleton crew and me being scheduled for 12 hour days.  I'm the most senior person, having now been there over 42 years, and things can often get quite demanding.  I'm also serving as a pastor for a little flock that means the world to me, not to mention being a family man.  I have sometimes said that I am spread so thin that one can about see through me!  Annnyway, I am glad to be able to share some again, and hopefully even get caught up on some things here at home. 

 

Hello brother, glad to see you back and well.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

My first thought concerning your above reply is that if John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Matthew 24:29-31 (which I believe we are both see as describing the same event) is of the Second Coming, how does the lesson of the fig tree connect?

 

Ok, so first I want to answer your question regarding the fig tree and the connection as to what it represents, the harvest of the earth.

 

Luke 13:6 And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

As I have said elsewhere, when someone is present, their return is not pending.

 

Now, as in regards to the timing, here is where we differ.  You are assigning His coming, to the sign of His coming.  The sign of His coming is telling you that His return is still pending, but very near.  Pay close attention to the exact words and the order in which they occur.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

 

Now, the first thing is that this immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints.  At that point the sun, moon, and stars go dark.  You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing.  Jesus gives you very specific timing on this event.

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

So, according to Jesus what you have is this order, great tribulation, then darkness, then appears the sign of Jesus, which we have learned in the gospels that following His resurrection He literally shines, defined as glory by the apostles.  Every eye will see Him coming because He will be the only light in the darkness from the moment He appears in the heavens until He arrives on the Mt. of Olives.  The fact that He is still coming displays clearly that He is still not present.  The gathering occurs in verse 31, indicating that He collects His sheep on His way back to earth.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Of course, if by "all these things" one takes this to mean everything that Jesus said from Matthew 24:4-31, I can kinda understand, but "all these things" certainly seems (to me, anyway) to include verses 29-31, whether exclusive of what He said prior, or inclusive.

 

As I pointed out above, the timing is very specific that this occurs after the tribulation of those days, which would include "all these things" as the disciples asked Him very specific questions.

 

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

Three questions, when will these things be?  Regarding the destruction of the temple.  What will be the sign of your coming?  And what marks the end of the age?  Now the problem as I see it, is you are attempting to separate His answers to these questions with unknown qualifiers as to whom what applies to.  He is speaking to a specific audience.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Matthew's account alone, I see the first section (24:4-14) as really pertaining to the era of the Church (especially), with huge relevance to every generation of the Church since the first century.  I see the second section (24:15-28) as really pertaining to the Israelites (especially) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, which will close with Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon (vss. 26-28).  And finally, I see the third section (24:29-51) as pertaining to very day of the event of Christ's Sign Return for both the rapture of the Church and as sign to the Israelite nation, seven years (and some months) before His Second Coming. 

 

Ok, so here is the problem I see with your conclusion.  First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere.  The issue you are running into is the focus should be on the questions which are being answered, three of them, and any sectioning should be in regards to the questions.  Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church.  Scripture is very clear that there is no division by race in the body of Christ, from the time of the resurrection forward He has made one man.  Paul writes about this explicitly in his letters, you may want to refer to Ephesians.

 

Now to address why your sections are faulty, I am just going to show you what I mentioned previously in regards to the II Thessalonians passage you posted.  Paul gives the exact same sequence as Jesus gives in the Olivet discourse.

 

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

So you first get the apostasy in verse 10 of the Olivet discourse, in verse 12 lawlessness will be increased.  The man of lawlessness is responsible for the AoD, which Jesus tells us of in verse 15 indicating what we get in verse 15 is detailed information that is occurring within the period between verses 10 and 12.  This is why you see repetitive information regarding warnings about false prophets and not to "go out" when they claim Jesus is here.  This is common in prophecies, we see the same thing in Revelation where we are given a summary, and then a detailed look elsewhere.  That is why verse 15 is framed in the manner it is, beginning with, "So when you see the AoD...."   We will see it in the previous section, sometime after verse 10.

 

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

I'm not really sure how you interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet "and what the results of this trumpet are."  I know that it is common that this trumpet is seen as being "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16), and the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31)---and I can kinda understand this.  But, there are other things that are written that point to something different and cause me to come to another conclusion. 

 

What I am referring to is what is specifically stated at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Right off the bat we are told that the world is now His kingdom, and He will reign forever and ever.  This is a major issue for your theory, because you believe there are still years to go under the reign of the enemy accompanied by God's judgement on what is now His own kingdom.  That's your first problem with the place this is said as far as chronology goes.

 

Revelation 11:17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.

 

It is reiterated again here, that His reign has begun.  Sounds like the millennial period to me.

 

Revelation 11:18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

 

Wrath came already, time for judging the dead and rewarding the prophets and saints.

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

According to John, the time for judgement has still not taken place as late as chapter 20, and that some who will be reigning with Christ during the millennium includes those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark.

 

[wingnut-]

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

This also fits The Revelation's chronology of His Sign Return at the opening of the 6th Seal and His later Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon.

 

I'm a little confused by some of your comments, in particular regarding the 6th seal, so for clarity I have to ask.  If I understand you correctly, you see the 6th seal as the rapture, so from that point you believe there are 7 years to go before His coming?  If so, what about the first five seals?

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

Question wingnut-:  If the 7th Trumpet is the rapture trumpet, and the rapture happens "in the twinkling of an eye" at this trumpet, what is your understanding of everything that happens thereafter?

 

Ok, to answer the question first I need to clarify a few things so you understand what I believe.  First, when you say rapture, I read gathering, because that is what the word harpazo is speaking of, a very specific detail.  Another specific detail, in regards to the gathering, is that we are transformed into our glorified bodies, the resurrection.  This is what occurs in the "twinkling of an eye", our being changed to a glorified body, at the time of our gathering.

So what happens thereafter would be the Millennial Kingdom, which begins with the battle of Armageddon.  This "battle" will be over in a matter of moments based on the specifics in scripture.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

When you consider the brief overview of what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, you can see this expounded on for the next nine chapters.

 

When you say brief overview of what happens after the 7th trumpet, what information are you talking about?  Surely you don't mean the actual words that accompany the sounding of the 7th trumpet?

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:54 PM, not an echo said:

As I see it wingnut-, considering what the two Christians faced, I don't believe spiritualizing the experience of the martyred Christian really satisfies what the word "escape" denotes or connotes.  Do you see what I mean?

 

I don't see what you mean.  What it appears to me you are saying, is that your definition of escape takes precedence over what Jesus defined it as.  When He tells the very people He is speaking to, some of you will be executed but not a hair of your head will be harmed, after saying they will be accounted worthy to escape all these things if they remain faithful, then Jesus Himself has defined what the meaning of escape is.  If it is "spiritualized" as you put it, then Jesus declared it to be.

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

I wish I could fully agree wingnut-, but what you refer to as "the facts" I see a little differently.  According to my interpretations...

1.  It is things at the time of Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church that will be just like they were in Noah's day.  Interestingly, interpreted this way, everything that Jesus speaks about in Matthew 24:29-51, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-36 connects with the very day of the rapture.  Everything.

 

 You are creating an event out of a sign.  A sign is simple, they point us in a direction.  The sign of His coming is what the disciples asked about, and He tells them exactly where it will occur in a sequenced order of events.  If He were coming more than once, don't you think He would have said so to His faithful followers?  In all three gospel accounts, He specifies that His coming is when we are gathered.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

2.  I believe I agree with your statement here, but what you have in parenthesis kinda throws me.  As I understand your position, don't you mean, This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to PRECEDE it?

 

No, I mean it negates a 7 year period to follow it.  7 years is not "sudden" by any definition.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

3.  Christ's Sign Return and His Second Coming do not occur at or near the same moment.  Sometimes they are mentioned separately in Scripture. 

 

They are never separated in scripture, there is not one example of this.  If you believe there are any examples, please share the scripture.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming in 24:26-28 and then of His Sign Return in 24:29-31. 

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

They are not separated, and the sign is not the sun, moon, and stars, they occurred in the previous verse.  After that occurs, THEN His sign appears, the people on earth mourn because of it, and they see Him COMING.  You are trying to insert a 7 year period of time into a sequence that Jesus does not allow for.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In The Revelation, Jesus' Sign Return is shown to occur in 6:12-7:17 (with the opening of the 6th Seal, which corresponds to Matt. 24:29-31) and then His Second Coming is shown to occur in 19:11-21 (which corresponds to Matt. 24:26-28).

 

The 6th seal events are not the sign, refer back to Jesus' own words and you can see that His sign comes after the events of the sixth seal.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In II Thessalonians 2, Christ's Sign Return for the gathering of the Church is spoken of in verse one, and then His Second Coming (i.e., the Day of Christ/KJV) is spoken of in verses two and eight.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

You are changing what scripture says to construct a theory.  The verse in II Thessalonians says nothing about a "sign" return because there is no such thing.  Paul specifically says His coming, and our gathering.  His coming and our gathering are then combined into what Paul refers to as " a day" in verse 2, which is a common literary device you will find in every book or story ever written.  As a writer I implement this myself, as does any writer.  In each instance you do this, you are attempting to insert a 7 year time gap in between consecutive verses, or in regard to the Olivet discourse you are trying to insert a 7 year time gap into the very same verse.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

I believe the primary purpose for Jesus' use of the example of the ark (and Lot's deliverance) was not to convey the nature of the deliverance, but the importance of being ready for the deliverance.  This is the tenor of everything that is said relating to the period of the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see anyway that Scripture can be correctly interpreted to fit a post-trib deliverance.  Simply put, such to me is as difficult as it would have been for us, if we had lived in Noah's day, to be considering whether our boarding of the ark would be pre-flood, mid-flood, or post-flood.

 

First I want to clarify I am not post-trib, you're reading that into my responses but it is not accurate.  I am much closer to post-trib than pre-trib, but I am not in the post-trib camp as we are about an hour apart on our timing.  In regards to Noah and the ark, the inescapable truth of the matter is that if Noah or any one of his family members had fallen off of or jumped off of the ark, they would have been in trouble.  Their safety was limited to remaining on the ark, because they hadn't gone anywhere and remained on planet earth.  As for Lot and his daughters, if they had looked back like his wife did, they would have turned to salt also.  Their safety was contingent on their obedience, because again, they were still on planet earth.  The morale of both stories as I see it, is to abide in Him.

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2020 at 1:16 PM, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I didn't mean to write a pamphlet, I just got started and have enjoyed a little time of reminiscing. 

 

It's all good brother, I've enjoyed getting to know more about you.  I realized how late it was last night so I stopped short of responding to everything as I intended, so I want to address some of what I opted out of last night.  Right now as it stands, I feel the biggest hurdle is to address the chronology issue.  I know you haven't had time yet to respond to my posts regarding the 7th trumpet so while that remains pending I wanted to discuss the three woes as they also provide clear markers for us to indicate sequence of events.

 

Revelation 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”

 

So following the fourth trumpet we get this information that tells us the three woes directly correlate to the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets.  So we know that what occurs with each one of these trumpets correlates to the woes, but there are also other passages that speak to the woes as well.

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

 

Stars are used as symbols for angels in scripture, and here we see John telling us that the star is a "he", and this being is going to unlock the abyss.  When he does, some unsavory things will come out of it, and we are also told that their king is Abaddon, or Apollyon, the destroyer.  I would consider that it is not speculation to deduce this is a reference to satan.

 

Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

 

In chapter 12 we see that at the point satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and down to the earth, it is a woe to the earth and sea, which means this is one of our three woes.  It just so happens to correlate perfectly with the first woe, when an angel fallen from heaven to earth goes down and unlocks the abyss.  This to me connects the timing of the first woe and the fifth trumpet to this occurrence in chapter 12, our first woe.

Chapter 12 ends, and chapter 13 begins with the dragon standing on the shore of the sea, and our introduction to the beast out of the sea in chapter 13.  This is what leads up to the period of the great tribulation, the final 3 1/2 year period which is outlined in both chapter 12 and 13.

 

Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.

13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

 

So the first woe is set off by the fifth trumpet, which results with the devil and his angels being cast down to earth, this is that woe which ushers in the reign of the beast and the establishment of his kingdom.  The sixth trumpet, which is the second woe, does not come for nearly three and a half years after the first woe, near the very end of the great tribulation period.  These final events all occur right on top of each other, sudden destruction.

Now the four angels related to the sixth trumpet have been waiting for a specific, day, hour, month, and year to be released with this massive army that will kill a third of mankind with three plagues, fire, smoke, and sulfur.  This is the second woe, and we also see in chapter 11 that the events occurring there relate to specific timing with the sixth trumpet, or second woe.

 

Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

 

So in chapter 11 we are told about the two witnesses and their 3 1/2 year period of time in Jerusalem.  They are killed 3 1/2 days prior to the verse I started with, and in verse 12 we see them gathered in the clouds with everyone else.  At the very same hour this is taking place we have the great earthquake occurring, Jerusalem falling apart, and the only group in the entire book of Revelation that repents and turns to God occurs at this time, after the gathering.  This group accounts for your millennial individuals, everyone else is wicked and will perish.  The second woe which is the sixth trumpet ends at the conclusion of chapter 11, and the third woe comes quickly.

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:28 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 10:57 PM, not an echo said:

And, I believe I may need to clarify that when I say Church, I am not talking about any building, but what Jesus told His disciples that He would build (Matt. 16:18) and what 3000 Jews were added to on the Day of Pentecost---something they had not prior to that time been a part of (Acts 2:41-47).  Of this Church, I am most grateful to be a part.

 

I'm unclear as to what you are saying above, so I am unsure how to comment other than ask for clarification.  Are you suggesting that  the "Church" was not made up of Jews until Pentecost, and that these 3000 were the first Jews in the Church?

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Been another long and full week for me.  Been looking forward to finding some time to share once again.

In an earlier post, I wrote relating to the above and thought I might save a little time (and get a little further!) by copying and pasting that here, with an edit or two that hopefully will speak to your question.  Also wingnut-, earlier in the week when looking at your replies, I noticed that you mentioned something similarly relating to the Jews and the Church.  I'm not remembering at the moment the exactness of your post, but I certainly believe that when one becomes a part of Christ's Church, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, just brothers and sisters in Christ (e.g., Gal. 3:26-29, I Cor. 12:12-13) .  So, for me, any who have been saved I consider to be my brothers and sisters in Christ!

(My copy and paste, with edit additions in bold)---The basic distinctions that I make between the era of the Church and the Israelite Nation are in tune with the basic distinctions that can be made between things relating to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  For example, as the Israelite Nation was a focal point of the Old Covenant, the Christian Church is a focal point of the New Covenant, and everything about either stems from God's promise to Abraham to bless all nations through his seed.  In other words, the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham connects with the establishment of the Nation in the Old Testament days and it continues with the establishment of the Church in these New Testament days.

When Jesus asked the disciples, "But whom say ye that I am?" and Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God,"  Jesus told them that "upon this rock I will build My Church;  and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:13-18).  I see the Apostles (who were Jews) as being the pillars of the New Testament Church, and on the Day of Pentecost, 3000 Jews that were not a part of the New Testament Church got saved and became a part of it, and from that time all who have been saved (Jew and Gentile alike) have become a part of it.  I count myself (and all who are saved) as being a part of this same Church.

There is coming a day---and it may be today---when Christ will return for His Church.  Relating to the Israelite nation, there is a 70 Weeks prophecy written of in the book of Daniel (9:24-27), of which 69 Weeks have been fulfilled.  The 70th Week has not been fulfilled.  As the New Testament Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 Weeks of this prophecy, it will not be a part of the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that will be experienced and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

The basic distinctions that I make between the era of the Church and the Israelite Nation are in tune with the basic distinctions that can be made between things relating to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  For example, as the Israelite Nation was a focal point of the Old Covenant, the Christian Church is a focal point of the New Covenant, and everything about either stems from God's promise to Abraham to bless all nations through his seed.  In other words, the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham connects with the establishment of the Nation in the Old Testament days and it continues with the establishment of the Church in these New Testament days.

 

It may just be the wording, but to clarify this distinction you speak of for anyone reading I want to clarify with some subtle, but important differences.  The Old Covenant was regarding the law, not the nation of Israel through which the law was first given.  As was proven historically, the law was inadequate and all who lived by the law were destined to perish because we are all incapable of keeping it.

The promise to Abraham was fulfilled by Jesus, when He gave His life for all mankind, thereby becoming the blessing as promised in Genesis 12 "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” upon His resurrection.  The fulfillment of the promise, and the law and prophets by Jesus is the New Covenant, and He is the link between the two.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

There is coming a day---and it may be today---when Christ will return for His Church.  Relating to the Israelite nation, there is a 70 Weeks prophecy written of in the book of Daniel (9:24-27), of which 69 Weeks have been fulfilled.  The 70th Week has not been fulfilled.

 

I do not agree with dispensationalism, so I have to disagree with your conclusion above.  Biblically, and historically speaking, it is a rather dubious and unsupported conclusion to say that the 70 weeks of Daniel have not been fulfilled.  The overwhelming evidence simply does not support the theory.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that will be experienced and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

 

What prophecy are you referring to in which a removal is spoken of?  In regards to the prophecy I see, the remnant of Israel is not going to experience the tribulation you predict.

 

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

 

The prophet Hosea describes this event as follows.

 

Hosea 2:14 “Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
    and bring her into the wilderness,
    and speak tenderly to her.
15 And there I will give her her vineyards
    and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
    as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.

16 “And in that day, declares the Lord, you will call me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer will you call me ‘My Baal.’ 17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. 18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. 19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. 20 I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the Lord.

 

Isaiah also confirms what Hosea had to say, but one important aspect of the above is the final segment I posted, in which the word betrothed is used.  The fact that these individuals are His bride it creates serious issues with your timing in which the bride is gathered.  Either the bride is one body, or Jesus is a polygamist and this bride in most pre-trib scenarios is shunned from the marriage supper.

In regards to the Jewish people as a whole, there are two groups in this time.  The remnant that God has promised to preserve (which we see described in the passages I posted), and there is the group that are not His, as shown in the prophesy of Zechariah.

 

Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

So 2/3 of the people will be cut off, and they perish.  I would hope that given the hundreds of examples in scripture regarding what it means to be cut off are enough clarification that it doesn't require posting them.  The meaning is clarified well enough just in this passage regarding the declaration that the 1/3 He brings through the fire are called "His people."

[not an echo]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:28 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 10:57 PM, not an echo said:

I'm guessing that you don't see Revelation 7:9-17 as being the raptured Church in Heaven, but I do.  And concerning the elder's statement in verse 14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation,"  I see this as being quite appropriately said of the Church as whole, from a worldwide and historical perspective.

 

That is correct, the gathering comes much later, on the last day as Jesus foretold.  These individuals that came out of the great tribulation were killed during the beast's war on the saints.  This is why they are there, and not here.

I had aimed to spend some more time sharing yesterday, but I ended up at the ER with my son because he dislocated his shoulder.  It was awful, till they got it back in place!, then it was all of a sudden a lot better!  Like the wheels of justice, things in an emergency room can sure move slooow.  Got home this morning about 4:00 am.  He's pretty tender today but is going to be just fine. 

Well, wingnut-, I believe you (as most others do) see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the time of Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon, commonly referred to as His Second Coming.  On the other hand, I see this as being Christ's Sign Appearance, based partly upon His words, "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vs. 30).  What He is calling "the sign" I see as just that.  As it shapes up to me, this return will be a sign (in the sky of Israel's hemisphere) primarily for the Israelites, during which 144,000 will see Him (possibly just a glimpse at this time) and be saved.  Jesus' words concerning "all the tribes" (vs. 30) are fulfilled during the 6th Seal event when the 12,000 from "all the tribes" (Rev. 7:4) will be sealed.  I see this 144,000 as being the "first fruits" (Rev. 14:4) of Israel's later national acceptance of Christ, prophesied of by Zechariah (12:8-10ff).  Further, I see the gathering together of "His elect" (Matt. 24:31) as being the same "gathering together" of which Paul speaks (II Thess. 2:1), and those gathered being represented by the "great multitude" (Rev. 7:9) John sees in Heaven at the time of the 6th Seal event.  Concerning "the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30), whether this be the first or second phase of His return, whether it be the raptured Church, the 144,000 sealed Jews, many eyes, or every eye, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory"!  Of course, at His Second Advent, every eye shall see Him (Rev. 1:7).  As I see our hemisphere being then out of the picture (because of the 1/3 destruction of Rev. 8), the only remaining eyes will be in Israel's hemisphere, meaning every eye shall simultaneously see Him, AND IN PERSON!, without the need for cell phones, internet, or TV as some have come to theorize. 

All of this is in tune with Paul's words, "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:17), meaning the Church will escape the time of "the Day of the Lord" (I Thess. 5:1-3ff) of which Paul also then speaks.  This is in tune with John's account of the 6th Seal event and the cry of the people who are left that "the great day of His wrath (i.e., the Day of the Lord) is come" (Rev. 6:17).  Because the 7th Seal can scripturally be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, this makes the cry of those who are left indeed true.  Very interesting to me is this:  Because everything that happens after the opening of the 7th Seal (thru Rev. 20:15) easily fits what the Day of the Lord is all about, I have come to see THE DAY OF THE LORD as being a very fitting title for this book.   For me, this simple observation has benefited my understanding in a big way.

Further, this is all in tune with Joel's prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord spoken of by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20).  By this interpretation, since the inauguration of the Church Era began on the Day of Pentecost and the day of its conclusion can be seen to occur with the 6th Seal event, Joel's prophecy can be seen to be precise TO THE VERY DAY of both the beginning and the ending of the era of the Church.  Seeing this has caused me to regard Joel's prophecy as being one of the biggest keys to recognizing the timing of the rapture in Scripture.  Curiously, no one seems to have much of a comment to make concerning it.

Further, the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) that the great multitude has just come out of can easily be the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals, which I see as having been riding down through the corridors of history from as early as the first century until our present time.  This interpretation is in tune with both the opening section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and the opening three verses of The Revelation.  Needless to say, commentaries are replete with parallels that have been made between Jesus' opening words and the first four seals.  However, hardly any make the 4th Seal connection that I make (that this concerns the persecution and martyrdom of Christians), something that I see substantiated by what we see with the opening of the 5th Seal.  Note that I interpret "the fourth part of the earth" (Rev. 6:8) as being a geographical, not a population reference. 

Further, I just cannot see Christ's Second Advent as occurring with the opening of the 6th Seal, partly because the 7th Seal will not have even been opened yet.  For me, this alone represents and an insurmountable snag.  I know for those that believe otherwise, the words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29) evidently presents an equally insurmountable snag.  As I have come to see it (and just wrote concerning), when the tribulation Jesus here speaks of is understood to be the tribulation of the Church Era, this perceived difficulty fades, and many prophetic puzzle pieces begin to easily fit.

In the foregoing narrative of some of my reasonings, I purposely did not mention anything concerning Daniel's 70th Week.  In a sentence, I don't see it as even beginning until Revelation 11:1, after the world's stage is made ready and the "little book" (Rev. 10:2) is opened, which I see as being the little book of Daniel (cp. Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Having seen your most recent post, I am taking it that you don't see any of Daniel's 70 Week's prophecy as being left to be fulfilled.  Am I understanding you correctly?  If so, we may be at an impasse on this subject.  My thought is to finish replying to what you have posted so far (as I get the time), but not knowing more fully how you are seeing everything, I hate for us to just be spinning our wheels.  In any case, I have enjoyed our time of discussion so far and appreciate your mature manner.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo