A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Matthew's account alone, I see the first section (24:4-14) as really pertaining to the era of the Church (especially), with huge relevance to every generation of the Church since the first century.  I see the second section (24:15-28) as really pertaining to the Israelites (especially) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, which will close with Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon (vss. 26-28).  And finally, I see the third section (24:29-51) as pertaining to very day of the event of Christ's Sign Return for both the rapture of the Church and as sign to the Israelite nation, seven years (and some months) before His Second Coming. 

 

Ok, so here is the problem I see with your conclusion.  First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere.  The issue you are running into is the focus should be on the questions which are being answered, three of them, and any sectioning should be in regards to the questions.  Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church.  Scripture is very clear that there is no division by race in the body of Christ, from the time of the resurrection forward He has made one man.  Paul writes about this explicitly in his letters, you may want to refer to Ephesians.

At first, I wasn't for sure what you were getting at by "First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere."  I'm thinking, you must mean that if I'm seeing the first section as referring to the era of the Church, where is the evidence there of it being raptured?  Going with what I think you are meaning, I don't see Jesus' mentioning of anything concerning the rapture until He gets to what I see as the third section, in which, this becomes His entire focus.  Consider my division of Jesus' Olivet Discourse as I have illustrated by the diagram below:

As I see it, the chronology of The Revelation reinforces the validity of the results of my effort to rightly divide the Olivet Discourse.  Concisely, we know that many parallels have been made between the opening section of the Olivet Discourse and the first four seals of The Revelation.  Next, what I refer to as Jesus' Sign Return is what the entirety of the last section concerns, and it easily belongs with the 6th Seal.  By this sequence in The Revelation, the possibility of my placement of the third section is shown to have solid merit.  This leaves us with what Jesus has to say relating to Daniel's 70th Week.  Using Matthew's account, it is elementary to see that 24:15-28 relates to this.  Consider afresh the opening verse of this section and my note:

 15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (meaning, whoso readeth the book of Daniel, let him understand)

It is well past the 6th Seal/Sign Return of Christ, as shown in Revelation 6:12-7:17, that we see the little book of Daniel open in Revelation 10 (compare Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Interestingly, we see the first evidences of Daniel's prophesied 70th Week in Revelation 11:2-3, with the mentioning of two 3-1/2 year time periods.  It could rightly be supposed that if the Antichrist is to confirm a covenant with Israel, there would be some evidence of this in The Revelation, either occurring or having occurred.  Well, I believe there is, in the opening verse of chapter 11.  Consider:

  1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and THEM THAT WORSHIP therein.

A couple of things in this verse really need to be noted.  One, "the temple of God" is in existence here.  As I see it, if the rapture were to occur today, it is not necessary that the Antichrist confirm his infamous covenant with Israel tomorrow, but he will begin his rise to power.  Likewise, if the rapture were to occur today (July 18, 2020), we know that the temple will not be in existence tomorrow, but the rebuilding of it will soon begin.  Perhaps the temple will be rebuilt before the rapture, but I'm inclined to doubt it.  If not, it will be rebuilt soon afterwards.

Secondly, "worship" is occurring in the temple of God.  I submit, however, that the worship occurring at this time is not worship of Almighty God.  Just because the account says this is the temple of God, this doesn't mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  I believe Paul gives us some commentary on what is going on here, from II Thessalonians chapter two:

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

  4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is WORSHIPPED;  so that he AS GOD sitteth in THE TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself THAT HE IS GOD.

How all the scholars, authors, and Bible commentators have so utterly missed this, to me, bespeaks the cleverness of Satan to distract.  I hope no one will think that I am saying this with a bad spirit, but I believe Satan has shown himself to be quite adept at keeping many in the religious higher echelon busy straining at gnats and swallowing camels.  In any case, it can be seen that the end result of my sectioning of the Olivet Discourse is in harmony with The Revelation.

Concerning your statement, "Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church",  I believe I am in agreement with you on this.  My seeing the first section of Jesus' discourse as pertaining primarily to the era of the Church has nothing to do with how I see a saved Jew.  Saved Jews are just as much a part of the body of Christ as I am, and we are brothers in Christ!  Whole brothers (and sisters!) by blood .  NO DIVISION BY RACE!  On the thing of the second section of Jesus' discourse pertaining primarily to the Israelites, I'm talking unsaved Israelites.  I'm sure you are not seeing unsaved Jews as being a part of the body of Christ.  At the rapture, all unsaved Jews will be left behind (with all the rest in the world that are not saved).  But 144,000 Jews will be saved, when they get that saving glimpse of Jesus at His Sign Return.  For these, it probably won't be too much unlike it was for Saul when he was on the road to Damascus!

Well wingnut-, it's my bedtime.  But, I'll be back...well, unless Jesus comes for us before then.  In that case, I'll catch up with you in glory and we'll find out first hand who got what right.   Really, I know that we all are going to be right and wrong on some things.  What matters the most (in this respect) is that we were true to God's Word the best we knew how to be.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Matthew's account alone, I see the first section (24:4-14) as really pertaining to the era of the Church (especially), with huge relevance to every generation of the Church since the first century.  I see the second section (24:15-28) as really pertaining to the Israelites (especially) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, which will close with Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon (vss. 26-28).  And finally, I see the third section (24:29-51) as pertaining to very day of the event of Christ's Sign Return for both the rapture of the Church and as sign to the Israelite nation, seven years (and some months) before His Second Coming. 

Now to address why your sections are faulty, I am just going to show you what I mentioned previously in regards to the II Thessalonians passage you posted.  Paul gives the exact same sequence as Jesus gives in the Olivet discourse.

 

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

So you first get the apostasy in verse 10 of the Olivet discourse, in verse 12 lawlessness will be increased.  The man of lawlessness is responsible for the AoD, which Jesus tells us of in verse 15 indicating what we get in verse 15 is detailed information that is occurring within the period between verses 10 and 12.  This is why you see repetitive information regarding warnings about false prophets and not to "go out" when they claim Jesus is here.  This is common in prophecies, we see the same thing in Revelation where we are given a summary, and then a detailed look elsewhere.  That is why verse 15 is framed in the manner it is, beginning with, "So when you see the AoD...."   We will see it in the previous section, sometime after verse 10.

Hello wingnut-,

Well, I got some surprise free time today and have been able to think about doing some catching up.  Not just here though.  The wife has had me on picture hanging detail too. 

Annnyway, as you can see by my diagram in the preceding post, I have Jesus' Sign Return occurring in Matthew's account between verse 14 and 15.  Of course, whether you see it as I do, or as you are, there is a close convergence of these two sections.  I know we both agree that things are going to get worse and worse.  This is the tenor of Jesus' words in the opening section, and summed up in verse 12: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."  As I see it, we are there!  But, when Jesus opens the 6th Seal, makes His "sign" appearance, and has His angels to gather His Church (Matt. 24:31, II Thess. 2:1, and I Thess. 4:17), the bottom is really going to drop out of things.  According to II Thessalonians 2:8 (and my interpretation of vss. 1-3), "then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (His Second Advent).

So, we are seeing the convergence of the two sections that I speak of fairly similarly, only I see Christ's "sign" appearance as coming between.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:54 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 4:35 PM, not an echo said:

I'm not really sure how you interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet "and what the results of this trumpet are."  I know that it is common that this trumpet is seen as being "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16), and the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31)---and I can kinda understand this.  But, there are other things that are written that point to something different and cause me to come to another conclusion. 

 

What I am referring to is what is specifically stated at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Right off the bat we are told that the world is now His kingdom, and He will reign forever and ever.  This is a major issue for your theory, because you believe there are still years to go under the reign of the enemy accompanied by God's judgement on what is now His own kingdom.  That's your first problem with the place this is said as far as chronology goes.

A big difference in how we are seeing things is that I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.  Really, what I am saying is quite an understatement, as I see this trumpet as heralding one of the two most significant periods of time in time.  Beyond including Christ's Second Advent, it includes the Battle of Armageddon, Christ's Millennial Reign, the casting of Satan into the lake of fire and brimstone, and the passing away of this present world.  But, this is not all.  Lastly, it includes the separating of the lost into Hell after the Last Judgment, as reflected in the overview of this period (Rev. 11:15-19, esp. vs. 18).  Summed up, as I see it, the 7th Trumpet heralds the period in which COMPLETE CLOSURE FOR THIS WORLD will occur.  This is reinforced by what the angel says concerning the 7th Trumpet in chapter 10 (vss. 5-7), after the little book of Daniel is seen open (vs. 2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  And interestingly, it is further reinforced by what is said of the devil in the chapter following the 7th Trumpet herald.  Consider from chapter 12:

 12  Therefore rejoice,  ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!  for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

As I see it wingnut-, the 7th Trumpet heralds the biggest show down that there has ever been.  Like a world title fight, there has been a lot of build up for this one, and now the time has come.  Only thing is, all in Heaven (and Satan too), know what the outcome is going to be.  This is why, upon the sounding of the trumpet that "there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ;  and He shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).  The very fact that everything has come to this point shows that God is in control.  Consider afresh from chapter 11:

 16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 

 17  Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;  because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, AND HAST REIGNED.

Though it will be no contest (as LIGHT is to darkness), the main event is still on.  Really, this event could be considered a mere formality---something for all creation to behold.  And yeah, Satan will have his followers in his corner.  He don't aim to go down alone.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, not an echo said:

This also fits The Revelation's chronology of His Sign Return at the opening of the 6th Seal and His later Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon.

 

I'm a little confused by some of your comments, in particular regarding the 6th seal, so for clarity I have to ask.  If I understand you correctly, you see the 6th seal as the rapture, so from that point you believe there are 7 years to go before His coming?  If so, what about the first five seals?

Yes, I certainly see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, and there being at least seven years and five months from this time till Christ's Second Advent.  Of course, the seven years I see as being Daniel's 70th Week, which won't begin until Revelation 11 (after the little book of Daniel is opened (chp. 10).  The five months are shown in connection with the 5th Trumpet period (Rev. 9:5, 10) and I see this time frame facilitating the rise of the Antichrist and what I refer to as the world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  Concerning the time frame shown in Revelation 9:15, I am not settled on this to the point of making a statement.

Partly because there are no time frames given relating to the first four trumpets, I can see these as being sounded later, the same day that the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs.

You have mentioned something about the "woes" in another post.  Relating to my first four trumpets/same day as the rapture interpretation, it has long been interesting to me that the word "woe" is used in reference to trumpets #5, #6, and #7.  Of what significance might this be?  The first announcement of these woes comes right after John's account of the 4th Trumpet, right before the sounding of the 5th Trumpet.  From Revelation eight, we read these words:

 13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, WOE, WOE, WOE, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, WHICH ARE YET TO SOUND!

I believe that one significance of these woes may be this:  One of these days the resurrection and the rapture of the Church is going to take place, concurrent with major havoc breaking loose upon this earth.  All the days after that will be days of WOE upon the earth till Jesus comes again.  Said a different way, if Jesus comes for the Church on a Monday, then Tuesday will be a day of WOE for those left behind, as will all the days thereafter, till He returns to reign.  Said still a different way, between the two phases, or parts, of Jesus' return, all the days will be days of WOE.  It is not going to be a good thing to be left behind on the day of the rapture.

Concerning your last question, I see the first four seals as having been opened in the first century, and the 5th Seal as being presently open.  I see the opening of the 6th Seal as being imminent, as I see Christ's Sign Return as being imminent---happening concurrent with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Concerning the activity of the four horsemen, I have threads concerning these that you evidently have not seen.  Just a day or two ago, I added links to these and other related thread titles that I have listed in the second post of this thread.  Hope you get a chance to check them out.

Got to go---my eyes are getting blurry! 

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

At first, I wasn't for sure what you were getting at by "First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere."  I'm thinking, you must mean that if I'm seeing the first section as referring to the era of the Church, where is the evidence there of it being raptured?  Going with what I think you are meaning, I don't see Jesus' mentioning of anything concerning the rapture until He gets to what I see as the third section, in which, this becomes His entire focus.

 

Yes, that was exactly my point.  There is nothing in the section you have labeled as when the rapture occurs about any rapture or gathering.  Where you find it in your third section is where it belongs, where Jesus placed it, after the tribulation.  Your theory requires moving it without any scriptural support for doing so, which is why it should be rejected.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

As I see it, the chronology of The Revelation reinforces the validity of the results of my effort to rightly divide the Olivet Discourse.

 

I think it is a mistake to build your theory around Revelation being chronological, and I am still waiting for you to address what results from the 7th trumpet.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Concisely, we know that many parallels have been made between the opening section of the Olivet Discourse and the first four seals of The Revelation.

 

We know this?  Based on what exactly?

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Next, what I refer to as Jesus' Sign Return is what the entirety of the last section concerns, and it easily belongs with the 6th Seal.  By this sequence in The Revelation, the possibility of my placement of the third section is shown to have solid merit. 

 

It actually doesn't have solid merit, and until you address the known events and the timing of those in scripture, such as the three woes, then you still have not shown it.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

This leaves us with what Jesus has to say relating to Daniel's 70th Week.  Using Matthew's account, it is elementary to see that 24:15-28 relates to this.

 

Well, again here we disagree, because clearly to me based on scripture and history, the 70th week (for certain the first half of the week) has already occurred.  If you would be so kind, please explain the passage below and specifically, why the desolation is not spoken in future tense.

 

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Consider afresh the opening verse of this section and my note:

 15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (meaning, whoso readeth the book of Daniel, let him understand)

 

Maybe what is being overlooked by people is rather obvious, and would explain quite a bit if it were ackowledged.

 

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

 

One thing the reader should understand is that desolations is plural, not singular.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

It is well past the 6th Seal/Sign Return of Christ, as shown in Revelation 6:12-7:17, that we see the little book of Daniel open in Revelation 10 (compare Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10). 

 

I couldn't disagree with this speculation more.  For one, Daniel is not a little book, and for two, Revelation 10 speaks of a little scroll, not a book.  This entire premise is not based on scripture at all, therefore it fails the "test" of scripture.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Interestingly, we see the first evidences of Daniel's prophesied 70th Week in Revelation 11:2-3, with the mentioning of two 3-1/2 year time periods.

 

I disagree, all of the 3 1/2 year periods specified in Revelation are the same 3 1/2 year period of time.  The two witnesses will be present in conjunction with the reign of the beast and will in fact be to offset him.  This is why it is specified that no one can harm these two witnesses, including the beast, until their time ends, just 3.5 days before his own time expires.  This chapter is also linked directly to the 6th trumpet, 2nd woe, and all three woes occur within the last 3 1/2 years.  The three woes, by definition, are the very heart of what makes this the great tribulation.

Also, as I pointed out previously, your timing on this does not agree with the three gospel accounts, particularly it directly clashes with Luke's account per the timing.  You section off these three accounts in segments, so compare them all side by side and explain how these exact things occur at different times.  Not to mention the last verse of Luke's segment matches exactly with Revelation 11.

 

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

 

Mark 13:14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 

 

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

In both Matthew and Mark's accounts, they specify that this time period was defined as the "great tribulation" per Jesus.  I think that adequately dispels your assertion that this time period is not the same 3.5 year period as the others mentioned in Revelation.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Consider:

  1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and THEM THAT WORSHIP therein.

A couple of things in this verse really need to be noted.  One, "the temple of God" is in existence here.

 

Indeed, but you haven't explained how you come to the conclusion it is referring to a building!  Considering we know based on scripture, from our New Testament, that the temple of God has for several millennia been within those who are His.

 

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

 

Have you considered this is probably why no measurements are given?

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church," I believe I am in agreement with you on this.  My seeing the first section of Jesus' discourse as pertaining primarily to the era of the Church has nothing to do with how I see a saved Jew.  Saved Jews are just as much a part of the body of Christ as I am, and we are brothers in Christ!  Whole brothers (and sisters!) by blood .  NO DIVISION BY RACE!  On the thing of the second section of Jesus' discourse pertaining primarily to the Israelites, I'm talking unsaved Israelites.  I'm sure you are not seeing unsaved Jews as being a part of the body of Christ.

 

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

Considering we have been chosen from the foundation of the world, and He has continued to preserve a remnant of Israel according to His foreknowledge, they are no more exempt from the inheritance promised from the beginning, and will not be left out of anything that any other believer is part of.  REMEMBER what you have learned, the last shall be first and the first shall be last, God is no respector of persons.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

But 144,000 Jews will be saved, when they get that saving glimpse of Jesus at His Sign Return. 

 

This is another instance where your theory departs from what is known and therefore it collides with your time frame.

 

Revelation 14  Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

 

How does this align with what you presented?

[wingnut-]

On 7/22/2020 at 12:03 AM, not an echo said:

A big difference in how we are seeing things is that I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.

 

Revelation 10: 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

 

So despite being told there is no more delay and prophecy will be fulfilled your theory says no, there is still a delay?

Despite being told He is now reigning your theory says no, not yet?

Time for judging the dead is now, but your theory says no, not yet?

This fails the test of scripture in every regard as it is in direct opposition to what we are told.

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 4:35 PM, not an echo said:

Question wingnut-:  If the 7th Trumpet is the rapture trumpet, and the rapture happens "in the twinkling of an eye" at this trumpet, what is your understanding of everything that happens thereafter?

 

Ok, to answer the question first I need to clarify a few things so you understand what I believe.  First, when you say rapture, I read gathering, because that is what the word harpazo is speaking of, a very specific detail.  Another specific detail, in regards to the gathering, is that we are transformed into our glorified bodies, the resurrection.  This is what occurs in the "twinkling of an eye", our being changed to a glorified body, at the time of our gathering.

So what happens thereafter would be the Millennial Kingdom, which begins with the battle of Armageddon.  This "battle" will be over in a matter of moments based on the specifics in scripture.

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Another full week for me, except for a surprise day off earlier in the week.  I think I may like surprise days off better than any!  Anyway, hope all is going well for all, and glad to find some time to make a few more installments.

Concerning "when you say rapture, I read gathering,"  I'm very fine with "gathering" as we will certainly be gathered!  I like the KJV, "caught up" and the definition of harpazo, "to seize"!  We'll be changed and seized!!!  (I just love this little emoji)

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 4:35 PM, not an echo said:

When you consider the brief overview of what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, you can see this expounded on for the next nine chapters.

 

When you say brief overview of what happens after the 7th trumpet, what information are you talking about?  Surely you don't mean the actual words that accompany the sounding of the 7th trumpet?

Yes, that is what I mean.  When the 7th Trumpet sounds, John writes concerning what he heard and saw (Rev. 11:15-17) and then of what happens (the overview).  And what happens?  From Revelation 11:

 18  And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great;  and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, as I said, I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding the period of which this brief overview is given.  Then, everything related to this is expounded on in chapters 12-20.  From a different angle, I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding the period in which closure for this present time and world will take place (Proposition 10 in my OP).  Note that in the 7th Trumpet overview, part of what is said "is come" concerns "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (vs. 18).  This is the time of the Last Judgment, spoken of in Revelation 20,

 11  And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;  and there was found no place for them.

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;  and the books were opened:  and another book was opened, which is the book of life:  and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;  and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:  and they were judged every man according to their works.

 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.

 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This judgment will close the period of the 7th Trumpet.  Note how I illustrate the chronological order of The Revelation in my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  When I recognized this order, it transformed my understanding of The Revelation.  My observation is that interpretations that do not recognize the chronological, yet overlapping structure of chapters 11-20, end up all over the place.  Though there are elements about The Revelation that will continue to keep us busy in our study, it sure is a help to understand its chronology, and it is wonderfully chronological---as could be expected.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 12:37 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 4:54 PM, not an echo said:

As I see it wingnut-, considering what the two Christians faced, I don't believe spiritualizing the experience of the martyred Christian really satisfies what the word "escape" denotes or connotes.  Do you see what I mean?

 

I don't see what you mean.  What it appears to me you are saying, is that your definition of escape takes precedence over what Jesus defined it as.  When He tells the very people He is speaking to, some of you will be executed but not a hair of your head will be harmed, after saying they will be accounted worthy to escape all these things if they remain faithful, then Jesus Himself has defined what the meaning of escape is.  If it is "spiritualized" as you put it, then Jesus declared it to be.

No wingnut-, how you say it appears to you is not what I am saying at all.  You must know that even the thought would make me cringe.

The escape Jesus is talking about in Luke 21:36 is related to "that day" that He speaks of in verse 34, which in turn relates to the 6th Seal event of which He has been speaking since verse 25.  Interestingly, what He says in verses 25-27 is like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal event (Rev. 6:12-17).

Based on Matthew's parallel account of this same event, we know that this is the time of which Jesus says, "and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  At this time, Jews from "all the tribes" will mourn at the sight of Jesus (Matt. 24:30) and 144,000 will be saved, whom we see in connection with the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:1-8).  Also, the resurrection and the gathering of the Church will take place at this time (Matt. 24:31), which is the gathered multitude we see, likewise in connection with the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:9-17).

What I said concerning martyrdom and escaping stands.  If someone escapes martyrdom, he or she is delivered from being martyred.

To clarify a little further concerning the escape Jesus is talking about, at Christ's Sign Return/6th Seal Return, the Church will be gathered, meaning it will escape the period of the Day of the Lord, which those who are left will face (Rev. 6:15-17), all in perfect harmony with what Paul said in I Thessalonians 4:13-5:1-11, especially verses 1-4.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 1:33 AM, not an echo said:

I wish I could fully agree wingnut-, but what you refer to as "the facts" I see a little differently.  According to my interpretations...

1.  It is things at the time of Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church that will be just like they were in Noah's day.  Interestingly, interpreted this way, everything that Jesus speaks about in Matthew 24:29-51, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-36 connects with the very day of the rapture.  Everything.

 

 You are creating an event out of a sign.  A sign is simple, they point us in a direction.  The sign of His coming is what the disciples asked about, and He tells them exactly where it will occur in a sequenced order of events.  If He were coming more than once, don't you think He would have said so to His faithful followers?  In all three gospel accounts, He specifies that His coming is when we are gathered.

Jesus says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven..." (Matt. 24:30).  I'm thinking, now that will be an event!  Wingnut-, don't you think this will be an event?  "And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-17).  Yeah, now that is going to be an event!  And, as soon as the elect are gathered (which is gonna happen quick!), we'll all be gone.  Those who are left will be shaking their heads, rubbing their eyes in bewilderment, and facing a lot of woe.  They will not escape, again, all in perfect harmony with what Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:1-4.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo