A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[wingnut-]

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

I had aimed to spend some more time sharing yesterday, but I ended up at the ER with my son because he dislocated his shoulder.  It was awful, till they got it back in place!, then it was all of a sudden a lot better!  Like the wheels of justice, things in an emergency room can sure move slooow.  Got home this morning about 4:00 am.  He's pretty tender today but is going to be just fine. 

 

Sorry to hear about your son, I dislocated my shoulder in my youth and dealt with issues from it since.  Just before last Christmas I ended up having shoulder surgery, so decades after the fact it is much better now.

 

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I believe you (as most others do) see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the time of Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon, commonly referred to as His Second Coming. 

 

For me it is quite simple, everything I believe starts and ends with what Jesus said regarding a matter.  The context of the Olivet discourse is very clear, the disciples privately ask Him WHEN the sign of His coming will be, and everything He says is in response to that question as well as their question regarding the end of the age.  This is the context under which the chapter should be read if one desires to reach the proper conclusion.

In verses 4-8 He warns about false prophets, wars, famines, and earthquakes, concluding with the statement the end is not yet and these things are the beginning of sorrows, or birth pains.

In verses 9-14 He tells them they will be persecuted and executed.  He speaks of the falling away, the increase in lawlessness, and that the gospel will be proclaimed to all nations before the end comes.

In verses 15-27 He talks about seeing the AoD, and defines the specifics that follow as the "great tribulation", many of which were already mentioned previously as well.  Then He says this.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

So everything said up to this point precedes what you and I agree on as the events of the 6th seal.

 

Matthew 24: 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

Once the sixth seal is open, THEN His sign appears in heaven, meaning it is not the events of the 6th seal, but something that follows it.  This is the WHEN, the very question the disciples asked, and this is His answer.  I don't pretend to be an expert myself, but Jesus certainly is, and I choose to believe Him over anyone else's theory.  After all, I have waged my eternal fate on accepting everything He said or did as absolute truth.  I would encourage others to read the Olivet discourse for themselves in the proper context of Him answering specific questions, and then ask themselves if it makes sense He gave them bad information.  Does anyone really think that in responding to WHEN, He would tell them the wrong sequence?

 

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

Having seen your most recent post, I am taking it that you don't see any of Daniel's 70 Week's prophecy as being left to be fulfilled.  Am I understanding you correctly?

 

If you can, try to examine Daniel's prophecy on its own merit, and put aside all thoughts other than the prophecy in question. 

 

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

 

So, just a few questions for you.

1.  Has the anointed one been cut off?

2.  Was the city and the sanctuary destroyed?

3.  Have the sacrifice and offering been ended?

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, not an echo said:

My first thought concerning your above reply is that if John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Matthew 24:29-31 (which I believe we are both see as describing the same event) is of the Second Coming, how does the lesson of the fig tree connect?

 

Ok, so first I want to answer your question regarding the fig tree and the connection as to what it represents, the harvest of the earth.

 

Luke 13:6 And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

Hello again wingnut-, 

Been another long and full week for me, how about you?  I believe I'm picking up where I had to leave off.

As I see it, Jesus' use of the parable of the fig tree ("and all the trees"/Lk. 21:29) in His Olivet Discourse pertains exclusively to what He has just been saying, and especially what He has just said concerning the event of His "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:29-31).  I'm not seeing how His statement, "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves" (Matt. 24:32) here represents "the harvest of the earth."

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, not an echo said:

As I have said elsewhere, when someone is present, their return is not pending.

 

Now, as in regards to the timing, here is where we differ.  You are assigning His coming, to the sign of His coming.  The sign of His coming is telling you that His return is still pending, but very near.  Pay close attention to the exact words and the order in which they occur.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

 

Now, the first thing is that this immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints.  At that point the sun, moon, and stars go dark.  You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing.  Jesus gives you very specific timing on this event.

Concerning your opening paragraph, for clarification, I see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) as occurring just after His opening of the 6th Seal.  I see this as being especially a "sign" for the Israelites, during which 144,000 will be saved.  Note the link, "all the tribes" of Matt. 24:30 with "all the tribes" of Rev. 7:4, not to mention all the other prophetic points of convergence.

Concerning your last paragraph, as I see it, what "immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" (spoken of in Matt. 24:15-26), is His Second Coming, which He speaks to in the very next verses...

 27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I see the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in verse 29 not as being "the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" but rather, the tribulation of the Church era, effected by the activity of the four horsemen of the Church era---what Jesus spoke of in the opening section of His Discourse (Matt. 24:4-14).

Of course, we know that a lot of controversy revolves around Matthew 24:29-31.  If it was explicitly pointed out that the tribulation (thlipsin) Jesus spoke of in verse 29 was the tribulation (thlipsin) He had just spoke of in verse 9 and not the great tribulation (megalE thlipsis) of verse 21, I submit that a lot of the controversy surrounding this passage would quickly subside.  To me, those who promote the common pre-trib view (which I once accepted) have run from the word "after" (vs. 29) for way too long, and consequently, have went down a bad path.  Jesus' Olivet Discourse is a classic example of Scripture that must be rightly divided.  I have a thread concerning this also, entitled Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse. (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Concerning your statement, "You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing," this is not the case at all, but I am taking it that you just did not realize this yet.  Though you may yet disagree (and I'm not offended in any way if you do), I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event of Christ's "Sign" Appearance, the fulfillment of which will take place with the opening of the 6th Seal.  I see Matthew 24:27-28 as being the event of Christ's Second Advent for the Battle of Armageddon, which will take place at least seven years later and will be the event that will bring Daniel's 70th Week to a close.

Below are a couple of my charts.  In other places I have added some explanatory notes.  For now, I'm just going to show the charts, as they give a very basic bird's-eye view of the bigger picture of how I am seeing things:

 

 

Got to go for a bit...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello again wingnut-, 

Been another long and full week for me, how about you? 

 

Good to see you again.  I guess by my standards it was a busy week, in that I had more issues to deal with than normal which will make next week more eventful as well.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see it, Jesus' use of the parable of the fig tree ("and all the trees"/Lk. 21:29) in His Olivet Discourse pertains exclusively to what He has just been saying, and especially what He has just said concerning the event of His "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:29-31).

 

While I agree that it has to do with what He has been saying, where we part ways is that you are still not separating the two questions that were asked.  The entire Olivet discourse is a response to those two specific questions, when will be the sign of His coming, and when is the end of the age?  So the sign of His coming stands on its own merit, and He tells us precisely when that occurs by a sequence of events.  The end of the age is the second question, and that is addressed by the mention of the fig tree, which He also identifies the when of that by placing it in sequence as well.  The understanding comes through His consistent use of the analogy via parables during His earthly ministry.

In regards to the end of the age specifically, Jesus had already disclosed this information to them, stating exactly when the end of the age would occur and its relation to the harvest of the earth amongst other specifics.

 

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm not seeing how His statement, "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves" (Matt. 24:32) here represents "the harvest of the earth." 

 

Ok, so here are the basic facts regarding a fig tree, and when the fruit is ripe to harvest.

1.  You can tell that it is time for harvesting figs when the fruit necks wilt and the fruits hang down.  At this time, the branches appear "tender" in that they bend under the weight of the ripe fruit.

2. The fig tree is one of the last trees to bud in the spring and so when it's leaves are budding we know that summer is just around the corner.

3. In mild winter and very long, warm summer regions, a fig tree may ripen two crops in one season, the first in early summer, the second late summer or fall. In cooler summer regions, a fig tree will ripen one crop in late summer.

 

Israel is a region that falls in that first group which harvests figs starting in early April and lasting typically until late August.  So when you understand the harvest cycle of the fig tree, particularly in regards to Israel, as well as the natural parameters of the tree itself, you can see how it lays out precisely to every detail what Jesus describes in the Olivet discourse.

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

So, according to Jesus what you have is this order, great tribulation, then darkness, then appears the sign of Jesus, which we have learned in the gospels that following His resurrection He literally shines, defined as glory by the apostles.  Every eye will see Him coming because He will be the only light in the darkness from the moment He appears in the heavens until He arrives on the Mt. of Olives.  The fact that He is still coming displays clearly that He is still not present.  The gathering occurs in verse 31, indicating that He collects His sheep on His way back to earth.

I'm thinking that I may understand what you are saying here, just not sure.  Concisely, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal, and then Jesus' Second Advent for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign being at least seven years later.  What I think you are saying is that Matthew 24:29-31 shows "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in heaven, after which "they will see the Son of Man coming" for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  If this is what you are saying, I guess my first question concerns what kind of interval of time you see between the appearance of "the sign" and His Second Advent?  Also, I'm not sure if we have discussed this, but do you see Christ's appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal as also being His Second Advent that is given an account of in Revelation 19:11-21?

Realize that as I see things, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---whether according to your interpretation or mine---He will most certainly be seen "with power and great glory."

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening paragraph, for clarification, I see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) as occurring just after His opening of the 6th Seal. 

 

Great!  Thanks for clarifying that point for me, it appears then that we agree on this.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

I see this as being especially a "sign" for the Israelites, during which 144,000 will be saved.  Note the link, "all the tribes" of Matt.24:30 with "all the tribes" of Rev. 7:4, not to mention all the other prophetic points of convergence.

Concerning your last paragraph, as I see it, what "immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" (spoken of in Matt. 24:15-26), is His Second Coming, which He speaks to in the very next verses...

 27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

Ok, here we are having a complete breakdown in understanding.  Perhaps I am just not understanding you, so based on what you stated, here are my objections.

1.  You state above that verses 27 and 28 come AFTER verse 30, but clearly numerically speaking you have that backwards.

2.  You seem to be suggesting that the sign of His coming is specifically for the Israelites, are you suggesting that if this brilliant light appears in the sky ( and is the only light in the sky based on the events of the 6th seal having preceded it) that only one race of people are going to notice?

To expand on why this doesn't hold up under scrutiny, please refer back to the events of the 6th seal itself and the results of it.  I think it is pretty obvious from the response of the earth's inhabitants, that the tribes of the earth mentioned in the Olivet discourse include all people.

 

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

I see the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in verse 29 not as being "the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" but rather, the tribulation of the Church era, effected by the activity of the four horsemen of the Church era---what Jesus spoke of in the opening section of His Discourse (Matt. 24:4-14).

 

Ok, so my response to this is quite simple, the adherence to dispensationalism often has the effect of blinding one to the evidence of things they already know, so that they can continue to adhere to dispensationalism.  Here is what happens when one tries to divide the Olivet discourse using dispensationalism and negating the fact that Jesus is speaking to a specific audience.  There are other witnesses, who include different details in their witness of the Olivet discourse.  Just compare line by line, what Matthew recorded versus what Luke recorded in regards to this section of the Olivet discourse.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

There are two important aspects to account for from these two passages, first, the fact that Luke makes it clear that some of these events are very clearly, directly specific to the actual people sitting in front of Jesus at the time.  They are being told that THEY will be persecuted and some put to death, and how to deal with that when it occurs.  Secondly, there is specific timing given as to when those specifics are going to occur which I highlighted above.  This reveals that how you are trying to divide the answer to the questions by sectioning off entire passages into ages is fatally flawed.  You have to account for all the information.

So when you take what Matthew says in verses 9 and 10, you can see he is referring to the same things Luke states in verses 12-19.  And according to Luke, these things take place prior to what He says takes place in verses 10 and 11.  Matthew discusses nation against nation, the earthquakes, famines, etc. in verses 6 and 7, and refers to it as the beginning of sorrows or birth pains.  This comes AFTER, even though it is mentioned before.  You have mentioned rightly dividing scripture, and all I can say is that must begin by adhering to the order of events that Jesus tells us as opposed to dividing things up based on dispensational leanings.  The segments in question are not in the order you are dividing them up in.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, we know that a lot of controversy revolves around Matthew 24:29-31.  If it was explicitly pointed out that the tribulation (thlipsin) Jesus spoke of in verse 29 was the tribulation (thlipsin) He had just spoke of in verse 9 and not the great tribulation (megalE thlipsis) of verse 21, I submit that a lot of the controversy surrounding this passage would quickly subside.

 

I would submit the issue that causes all the controversy is dispensationalism, mainly because it ignores the immediate audience to whom Jesus is speaking, and also because it opposes the very questions being asked in favor of splitting things up according to factors that are irrelevant to the entire context of the Olivet discourse.  While it leads people to warm and fuzzy conclusions, it simply reminds me of the biblical truth that people in the latter days will be drawn to ear tickling doctrines in favor of reality.  All of this is consistent with history as well of course, in that the Israelites were quick to dismiss what the prophets had to say in favor of anyone who was willing to tell them the prophets were mistaken.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing," this is not the case at all, but I am taking it that you just did not realize this yet.  Though you may yet disagree (and I'm not offended in any way if you do), I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event of Christ's "Sign" Appearance, the fulfillment of which will take place with the opening of the 6th Seal.

 

Again, we differ greatly on our understanding of what a sign is.  I understand that pre-trib needs to create an event to account for something that does not appear in scripture, which would be an extra visit by the Lord, so while it is creative in that regard, I still reject the notion because it fails to meet the "test" of scripture.  A "sign" is given as direction, it points you to an event, it is not an event in and of itself.

To put it in modern day perspective, imagine you decide to take a road trip to Chicago for example.  As you travel down the highway, you will occasionally come across "signs" on the road that may for example state, Chicago 266 miles.  It wouldn't occur to you to pull over at this sign and start celebrating your arrival in Chicago, because you are not in Chicago, the sign is merely pointing you in a direction, not telling you that you have arrived at the destination.

 

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, not an echo said:

Of course, if by "all these things" one takes this to mean everything that Jesus said from Matthew 24:4-31, I can kinda understand, but "all these things" certainly seems (to me, anyway) to include verses 29-31, whether exclusive of what He said prior, or inclusive.

 

As I pointed out above, the timing is very specific that this occurs after the tribulation of those days, which would include "all these things" as the disciples asked Him very specific questions.

 

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

Three questions, when will these things be?  Regarding the destruction of the temple.  What will be the sign of your coming?  And what marks the end of the age?  Now the problem as I see it, is you are attempting to separate His answers to these questions with unknown qualifiers as to whom what applies to.  He is speaking to a specific audience.

Concerning the disciples asking Jesus very specific questions, Jesus did not always answer questions in accord with how they were asked.  My mind goes to His dialogue with the rich young ruler (Matt. 19:16-22).  Now, whereas we might not know just how to ask the best and most appropriate questions, Jesus knows just how to give the best and most appropriate answers.

Concerning their first question ("when shall these things be?"), whereas I see Jesus' answer greatly transcending their specific question, I can also see His answer relating to it.  We know that the first time the temple was destroyed, it was on account of wars.  And Jesus' words, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" would have certainly rung in their ears when Jerusalem came under attack.  But now, in retrospect, we can see that what Jesus answers them (in the first section/vss. 4-14) transcends their time in a Divinely remarkable way---to the tune of 20 centuries worth of remarkable ways!

Concerning their second and third questions, "and what shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the end of the world?" (Matt. 24:3), by this, they were as much as asking Him, "What shall be THE SIGN OF THY SECOND COMING?  Well, we have His answer to this question in verse 30, and then His qualifying parable that, as I see it, points especially to the event of His "sign" appearance.  As I am understanding Jesus' words, the generation of the day that He makes His "sign" appearance will not pass until the coming of which His disciples were asking Him takes place.  This would be His coming as The King of kings and Lord of lords.  About forgot, though their second question is like one question with two parts, Jesus speaks to their question concerning "the end of the world" in His parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46).

I'm not sure if you meant it this way, but I do like it that you say that Jesus "is speaking to a specific audience."  To me, this audience is His disciples, who were being prepared to be the pillars of His New Testament Church.  Now, we know that they did not see come to pass all of that concerning which He spoke.  So, He was speaking to a specific audience, but about a lot of things that others would experience.  In consideration of history, The Revelation, Paul's writings, Peter's writings, Daniel's writings, Joel's prophecy, O.T. Scripture, our present day, and more (my "qualifiers"), it seems to me that it is in our face that Matthew 24:4-14 concerns the era of the Church, verses 15-28 concerns Daniel's 70th Week, and verses 29-51 concerns the very day of the event that will dissect the era of the Church from Daniel's 70th Week.  Of course, in my understanding, this event will include the rapture, or the gathering of the Church, just prior to the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.  As I have shown in my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/), this three section division is consistent in Mark and Luke's accounts as well.  Wingnut-, as I see it, if you ever do see it, you won't ever be able to unsee it.  Now, maybe similar would be true if I ever saw the layout of your view.  But I haven't...

Hey, I got to go change oil in my truck before the day gets away from me.  Hope to be back later.  Whew, I got a lot of catching up to do.  If you would just slow down a bit...

                                                 

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm thinking that I may understand what you are saying here, just not sure.  Concisely, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal, and then Jesus' Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign being at least seven years later.  What I think you are saying is that Matthew 24:29-31 shows "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in heaven, after which "they will see the Son of Man coming" for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  If this is what you are saying, I guess my first question concerns what kind of interval of time you see between the appearance of "the sign" and His coming? 

 

I'm glad that you are starting to understand my view of things, that certainly helps with the discussion.  I have the advantage of understanding the pre-trib theory in that I once also believed that would be the case, although in some circumstances your viewpoint deviates so at times there is still some confusion on my part.  The biggest hurdle we have is the chronology issue in regards to Revelation, so what you have to do when considering what I say is realize that there is no chronology to Revelation presented.  Interestingly enough, even when I was pre-trib, I have never found Revelation chronological, so it isn't something I can relate to.

As far as the time gap between the sign of His coming and His actual arrival on the Mt. of Olives there is no specific length of time given in scripture.  I am not one for making predictions, but based on my overall understanding the time required between will come down to factors that are unknown to us.  What I mean by that is this, the travel time associated with His coming relates to the amount of time required for the enemy forces to gather for Armageddon.  Depending on who that includes and their physical location, available means of travel at that time, etc., the length of time would vary on that basis.  I do not believe we are talking about a lengthy amount of time at all, based on what I read in scripture those involved will be from that region of the world.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, I'm not sure if we have discussed this, but do you see Christ's appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal as also being His Second Coming that is given an account of in Revelation 19:11-21?

 

The events of the 6th seal precede the sign of His coming, by how much time there is no certainty as scripture does not say.  The passage only records the reaction of those on the earth as a result of the sun, moon, and stars being affected.  Could their reaction also be associated with the appearance of His sign in the sky?  I would say yes, I believe there are enough scriptural references to associate the appearance of His sign with their response, based on the information from the Olivet discourse.

In regards to the events directly relating to His arrival as described in chapter 19, my answer is yes, this is what His coming is all about.  Keep in mind, when Jesus first told the disciples He would come again, He was here on earth.  When one tells you that they will "come again", they are referring to the location in which the statement is made.  So if for example, you are invited over to a friends house and as you are leaving he asks you to come again in the future, he is inviting you to his house again in the future, not some other location.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Realize that as I see things, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---whether according to your interpretation or mine---He will most certainly be seen "with power and great glory."

 

Amen to that.

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the disciples asking Jesus very specific questions, Jesus did not always answer questions in accord with how they were asked.  My mind goes to His dialogue with the rich young ruler (Matt. 19:16-22).  Now, whereas we might not know just how to ask the best and most appropriate questions, Jesus knows just how to give the best and most appropriate answers.

 

I agree with you, and I am not asserting that the questions have to be answered in the order they were asked, what I am asserting is that the questions would be answered with the correct response.  In regards to the specific details regarding the information He shared with them, it is not done in any specific order, which I already have pointed out in a previous post you haven't gotten to yet.  This is precisely the issue that arises when you are dividing things up by entire segments of scripture, each line must be accounted for in all three gospel accounts.

I think from what I reveal with scripture in that post not long ago, is when you state that Matthew 24:4-14 applies to what you refer to as the "church era", Luke clarifies that these very things precede what Matthew and Mark refer to as sorrows or birth pains, respectively.  The point is, the "church era" began with the disciples and continues to this very day, and that after discussing all the various aspects of the tribulation period, Jesus then tells them the WHEN regarding His sign.  In all three accounts it is AFTER all the tribulation that He disclosed, including the AoD and the period of time He defines as the "great tribulation".

The elephant in the room that you cannot avoid, is that following verse 29 there are no more references to tribulation of any kind, and that would be because it all occurred before the statement, "immediately after the tribulation of those days".  Everything that follows in chapter 24 and 25 relates to His coming and what transpires after His coming.

 

 

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Concerning their first question ("when shall these things be?"), whereas I see Jesus' answer greatly transcending their specific question, I can also see His answer relating to it.  We know that the first time the temple was destroyed, it was on account of wars.  And Jesus' words, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" would have certainly rung in their ears when Jerusalem came under attack.  But now, in retrospect, we can see that what Jesus answers them (in the first section/vss. 4-14) transcends their time in a Divinely remarkable way---to the tune of 20 centuries worth of remarkable ways!

 

And yet there are specific things said to them that they would, and did, experience personally, there is no getting around it, and as I have shown with scripture it has nothing to do with the order in which things were said, so it cannot be sectioned away.  Each event must be examined on its own merit to determine the order of things.  While one is free to speculate that historical events may repeat themselves in the future, it should never affect our recognition of a prophetic message being fulfilled.  This is a dangerous and slippery slope for any Christian to take, because ultimately it undermines the reliability of scripture.  For example, if I were to tell you that you need to keep your eyes open for the birth of the Messiah, what would your response be?

In regards to your bringing up the attack on Jerusalem, and how they may have viewed it, I would like to remind you of a subtle difference between Luke and the other two accounts.

 

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Luke's account varies from Matthew and Mark in that the first verse of this section from the other two are in reference to the AoD rather than Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.  How the disciples still living at the time viewed this I cannot say, but it is interesting that Luke, who was not an apostle, gives the different viewpoint in this regard.  Whether they were aware of John's Revelation at this point or not I cannot say, but if we assume they were not then it is most likely they would have believed this event took place in their time.

The reason Revelation is significant is because in chapter 11 John discusses these events, the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, and the timing related to the two witnesses.  There is no historical account or version that can address the two witnesses, their 3 1/2 year ministry in Jerusalem, their subsequent death, and their bodies rising after 3 1/2 days as they are called up to heaven, so it is safe to assume this is still future.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

it seems to me that it is in our face that Matthew 24:4-14 concerns the era of the Church, verses 15-28 concerns Daniel's 70th Week, and verses 29-51 concerns the very day of the event that will dissect the era of the Church from Daniel's 70th Week. 

 

Again this conflicts with itself, and some of your own statements in regards to it.  For example, the entire passage from verses 4-28 contain the same events in both of the sections you are separating from each other and they also make distinctions in timing from the very same passages you are separating into their own group.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey, I got to go change oil in my truck before the day gets away from me.  Hope to be back later.  Whew, I got a lot of catching up to do.  If you would just slow down a bit...

 

  Sorry, I answer when I have the available time to do so and would just encourage you to do the same.  I'm enjoying the discussion, so I look forward to your replies.

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Wingnut-, as I see it, if you ever do see it, you won't ever be able to unsee it.  Now, maybe similar would be true if I ever saw the layout of your view.  But I haven't...

 

Well, until the chronology issue is addressed it would be difficult to go into too much detail, but I did touch on some of the aspects of timing in a post you haven't gotten to yet.  What I'm trying to avoid is throwing too much on the fire at once, right now we already have multiple topics under discussion.  I don't have any problem answering any question you might have, but right now we are still circling chronology, and also how we view the future of the Israeli people.  These are pretty large topics on their own merit, but if you want to delve into something else, feel free.