A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 6/27/2020 at 3:52 PM, wingnut- said:

So, in regards to Noah, let's just look at the facts.

1.  The Second Coming will be just like it was in Noah's day.

2.  It is sudden destruction, life will be going on as usual right up until the storm hits.  It is not slow and gradual, it is immediate and permanent. (This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to follow it.)

3.  The Second Coming and the gathering occur at or near the same moment.  Every mention of them is together in scripture, they are linked.

 

On 7/5/2020 at 1:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 1:33 AM, not an echo said:

2.  I believe I agree with your statement here, but what you have in parenthesis kinda throws me.  As I understand your position, don't you mean, This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to PRECEDE it?

 

No, I mean it negates a 7 year period to follow it.  7 years is not "sudden" by any definition.

I hope this isn't confusing.  What I had agreed with was your statement as it relates to the flood.  From my pre-trib/pre-flood persuasion, I see the day of the rapture as the day destruction will commence (the Day of the Lord), in harmony with the opening of the 6th Seal.  In your statement in parenthesis, I initially thought that by the it, you were referring to the Second Coming (in tune with your statements in 1. and 2. and all the other its).  Can you clarify just a little further so I can be sure I'm understanding you?

Edited July 25, 2020 by not an echo
bolds concerning "it"

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 1:33 AM, not an echo said:

3.  Christ's Sign Return and His Second Coming do not occur at or near the same moment.  Sometimes they are mentioned separately in Scripture. 

 

They are never separated in scripture, there is not one example of this.  If you believe there are any examples, please share the scripture.

Yes, they are separated in Scripture, but sometimes not so apparent.  Kind of like a binary star, it looks like a single, till you home in closer, then it is discovered that it is two.  For clarification, I feel that saying Christ's return will be in two phases or two parts is generally sufficient, but I never talk very long about it without reinforcing that His return involves His Sign Appearance for the rapture of the Church (the sign is for the Israelites), and later, His Second Advent for the Battle of Armageddon, after which He will reign upon the earth for 1000 years.  The two parts or phases of His return are right before our very eyes in The Revelation---The event of His Sign Appearance (the 1st phase of His return) with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:15-17, and later, His Second Advent (the 2nd phase of His return) in Revelation 19:11-21.

What is right before our eyes in The Revelation is consistently reinforced by what Jesus says in Matthew 24:26-28 (His Second Advent), Matthew 24:29-51 (His Sign Appearance/consistent with Mark and Luke's parallel accounts), what Paul says in I Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, what he says in II Thessalonians 2:1-2 (I understand the "day of Christ" as being the day of His Second Advent), and also Joel's prophecy, as the Church era connection is made by Peter (Acts 2:16-21).  Have you ever thought about Joel's prophecy, the Day of Pentecost, the 6th Seal, the extent of the Church era, and the other related convergences with what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31?

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 1:33 AM, not an echo said:

In Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming in 24:26-28 and then of His Sign Return in 24:29-31. 

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

They are not separated, and the sign is not the sun, moon, and stars, they occurred in the previous verse.  After that occurs, THEN His sign appears, the people on earth mourn because of it, and they see Him COMING.  You are trying to insert a 7 year period of time into a sequence that Jesus does not allow for.

I interpret the event of Matthew 24:29-31 as encompassing a very short amount of time, as reflected by our transformation and subsequent gathering happening in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:51-52).  Of course, it's not hard to envision the celestial signs lingering, or continuing afterward, and there will be all the repercussions relating to this event.  Kinda like what all happened on the day that first airliner hit the North Tower---a lot happened after the instant of that impact.

Concerning the seven years, according to the evidence of Scripture (as I see it), this won't begin until at least several months afterward (Rev. 9:5, 10), as the first mention of the related time frames are not even seen until Revelation 11.

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 1:33 AM, not an echo said:

In The Revelation, Jesus' Sign Return is shown to occur in 6:12-7:17 (with the opening of the 6th Seal, which corresponds to Matt. 24:29-31) and then His Second Coming is shown to occur in 19:11-21 (which corresponds to Matt. 24:26-28).

 

The 6th seal events are not the sign, refer back to Jesus' own words and you can see that His sign comes after the events of the sixth seal.

As I understand the accounts, these are signs that will accompany The Sign.  Luke's account records Jesus' words that the celestial events are "signs" (Lk. 21:25) and Matthew's account records Jesus' words, that "then shall appear 'the sign' of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  As I envision it, when Christ has left with the Church, the celestial signs will continue to be seen for some amount of time, and will be lingering testimonies to what has just occurred, especially for those who are left on our side of the earth and any others that might not have caught a glimpse of His sign appearance.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 1:33 AM, not an echo said:

In II Thessalonians 2, Christ's Sign Return for the gathering of the Church is spoken of in verse one, and then His Second Coming (i.e., the Day of Christ/KJV) is spoken of in verses two and eight.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

You are changing what scripture says to construct a theory.  The verse in II Thessalonians says nothing about a "sign" return because there is no such thing.  Paul specifically says His coming, and our gathering.  His coming and our gathering are then combined into what Paul refers to as " a day" in verse 2, which is a common literary device you will find in every book or story ever written.  As a writer I implement this myself, as does any writer.  In each instance you do this, you are attempting to insert a 7 year time gap in between consecutive verses, or in regard to the Olivet discourse you are trying to insert a 7 year time gap into the very same verse.

As I believe we all should, I am merely endeavoring to understand in accord with what is revealed in Scripture---understanding all the while that "we know in part" (I Cor. 13:9) and "see through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).

In my thinking, what Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:1 is easy to deduce as being the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), unless you believe "there is no such thing."  Hmmm.  Christ's coming to make His "sign" appearance would certainly involve His "coming" (II Thess. 2:1), wouldn't you think?  Moreover, the time of our "gathering together" at this time certainly has a hard connection with Jesus' words in Matthew 24:31, don't you think?

According to the KJV, the day that Paul is here talking about is "the Day of Christ (Christos)" (II Thess. 2:2/KJV), not "the Day of the Lord (Kurios)" as modern versions have it.  So, we have more than a version concern, we have a manuscript discrepancy.  Is there really even a concern here?  I believe so.

Consider:  Paul had talked to the Thessalonians about "the Day of the Lord (Kurios),"  and of that day he told them, "For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord (Kurios) so cometh as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2).  Would it be going to far to suggest that he did not really have to explain to them further about the Day of Kurios?  But, it appears that they were a little fuzzy concerning the Day of Christos.  As it shapes up to me, Paul is now speaking to them about Christ's Second Advent, which will not come "as a thief in the night."  Why???  Because "THAT DAY shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3).  All of this is in perfect harmony with The Revelation, which shows the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night at the time that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:17), concurrent with Christ's coming as a thief to gather His Church (Matt. 24:30-31 with 42-44).  Then, it is after this, that the "man of sin" will be revealed (II Thess. 2:4/Rev. 11:1), well before the time of Christ's Second Advent (Rev. 19:11-21), at which time the man of sin will be destroyed (II Thess. 2:8/Rev. 19:20).

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:35 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/4/2020 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I didn't mean to write a pamphlet, I just got started and have enjoyed a little time of reminiscing. 

 

It's all good brother, I've enjoyed getting to know more about you.  I realized how late it was last night so I stopped short of responding to everything as I intended, so I want to address some of what I opted out of last night.  Right now as it stands, I feel the biggest hurdle is to address the chronology issue.  I know you haven't had time yet to respond to my posts regarding the 7th trumpet so while that remains pending I wanted to discuss the three woes as they also provide clear markers for us to indicate sequence of events.

I have read what you here have to say about the three woes, however, I haven't really got my head wrapped around what all you are getting at.  But, I'm certainly going to consider further.

In the meantime, and related to the chronology issue, I am curious concerning the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe, and your view of the rapture/gathering in connection with this trumpet.  Do you see the rapture/gathering happening concurrent with the trumpet sound?

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

Yes, that is what I mean.  When the 7th Trumpet sounds, John writes concerning what he heard and saw (Rev. 11:15-17) and then of what happens (the overview).  And what happens?

 

Ok, so having familiarized myself with your timeline via the links you shared, let's just approach this from the beginning of the seventh trumpet and deal with things one item at a time.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

So what we see in this opening declaration, is that the kingdom of the world,  meaning earth, is now His.  And He will reign forever, beginning from the moment that trumpet sounds.  If we examine what that means, based on scripture itself, it is very revealing.  One of the best illustrations we have comes from a Psalm appropriately titled "The Reign of the Lord's Anointed", so let's just walk through it.

 

Psalms 2  Why do the nations rage
    and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
    and the rulers take counsel together,
    against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
    and cast away their cords from us.”

 

Now where in Revelation do we see this activity occurring, where the kings of the earth and the rulers (meaning the dragon, beast, and false prophet) conspire to defeat God the Father and Jesus?

 

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Pretty straightforward so far, in regards to timing and consistent with the second woe, which as a reminder, is specifically stated just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet in chapter 11.  Continuing on with the Psalm.

 

Psalms 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
    the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
    and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
    on Zion, my holy hill.”

 

God is laughing at them, literally.  Now Zion, is and has always been a reference to New Jerusalem, even though many continue to confuse it with earthly Jerusalem.  In Hebrews however it is made perfectly clear to us.  When Jesus sets down on earth, it will be on the Mt. of Olives, and His first order of business is to proceed to this battle at Armageddon.

 

Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
    today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
    and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
    and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

 

This section reminds us of the manner in which He reigns, not gentle, but with righteous indignation.  We see this scenario played out in chapter 19 of Revelation.

 

Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

Psalms 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
    be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
    and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
    lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
    for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

The Psalm concludes by pointing out the exact thing Paul tells us, sudden destruction.  His wrath is quickly kindled, and once it is He comes with a firm hand, a rod of iron.  This is His reign from beginning to end.  It does not allow for some extended period of time, and it does not allow for your chronology.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

So, as I said, I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding the period of which this brief overview is given.  Then, everything related to this is expounded on in chapters 12-20.

 

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this, having already covered the opening declaration let's just review the other specifics mentioned as a result of the 7th trumpet and then compare which chapters actually deal with the material.

 

Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

 

Verse 17 deals with the information from the opening declaration we already covered, but just a quick reminder of how this goes down, the beginning of His reign, here is what chapter 19 states.

 

Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

 

This points out to us, that He leaves heaven, with the armies of heaven following Him out a few verses later, and immediately proceeds to battle once He arrives on earth.  This is in direct opposition to any notion there is some sort of delay, especially years.  In verse 18 we see a phrase that should be freshly familiar from Psalm 2, the nations raged, which was how the Psalm opened, but His wrath came, as in past tense.

The time for the dead to be judged is next, we find that in chapter 20, rewards for the prophets and saints chapter 21.  So what we actually see here, is that this passage from the seventh trumpet speaks specifically to events in chapters 19, 20, and 21.  How you get chapter 12-20 I have no idea, because it simply doesn't address any of those in that material.

Chapter 12 gives us a brief history of past events to identify the symbolic characters of the chapter, but the contents of the chapter by and large specifically address the first woe, 5th trumpet, from chapter 9.  It also addresses the 3 1/2 year period which is discussed also in chapters 11, and 13. 

Chapter 13 addresses the two beasts, and the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation in its entirety.

Chapter 14 covers first the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolized by the 144,000 redeemed from the earth, and who from the moment they are redeemed are said to follow the Lamb wherever He goes.  Then you get the messages from the three angels, first that the hour of His judgement has come, and second that Babylon has fallen.  So what ties all of this together, where do we see this information?

Babylon falls in a single hour, a fact that is repeated within chapter 18 numerous times, so naturally, what would immediately follow is the detail that it has indeed fallen.  And where do we find this within the specific judgements mentioned in Revelation?

 

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

 

So if Babylon is fallen in chapter 14, per the second angels message, how can she be draining the cup in chapter 16 at the very last bowl?  If Babylon has fallen in chapter 14, how can we then be introduced to clues regarding who she is in chapter 17, and a play by play of her destruction in chapter 18 when she fell in chapter 14 and again comes up in chapter 16 as still drinking from the cup of wrath?  How can one argue chronology in the face of such clear evidence to the contrary?

Then there is how the seventh trumpet event wraps up, watch closely what is occurring here.

 

Revelation 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

 

Now refer back up to the previous portion from chapter 16, the seventh bowl, verse 18.  Word for word, flashes of lightning, rumbling, peals of thunder, and earthquake, and heavy hail, oh yes, the end of the seventh bowl.

 

Revelation 16:21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

 

As I stated previously, these final events, starting with the set of 6 and 7's happen very quickly and overlapping each other, sudden destruction, as prophesied.

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 1:05 AM, not an echo said:

The escape Jesus is talking about in Luke 21:36 is related to "that day" that He speaks of in verse 34,

 

That is not what is stated at all, you are taking the phrase "all these things" and attempting to reduce it to one thing.  He is clearly addressing all the tribulation that He has spoken to them.

 

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

It's a very odd position to take, in saying that Jesus would speak these things to a specific group of people, and then try to remove from "all these things" the very specific details of tribulation that they are told they WILL experience personally.  Then you take something that based on your theory, won't occur for several millennia down the road, and try to narrow it down to just that one thing which then completely removes any relevance regarding the specific audience that asked Him the questions in the first place.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 1:05 AM, not an echo said:

Based on Matthew's parallel account of this same event, we know that this is the time of which Jesus says, "and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  At this time, Jews from "all the tribes" will mourn at the sight of Jesus (Matt. 24:30) and 144,000 will be saved, whom we see in connection with the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:1-8).  Also, the resurrection and the gathering of the Church will take place at this time (Matt. 24:31), which is the gathered multitude we see, likewise in connection with the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:9-17).

 

You're still not addressing the contradiction regarding the 144,000.  We see them being sealed in chapter 7, so they are not harmed by the coming judgements, which means they will be here on earth.  The second time we see them in chapter 14, we are told they specifically follow the Lamb wherever He goes following their redemption.  In order for that to be true, they MUST be in the same place Jesus is.  This does not align with your chronology.

The prophecies of Hosea and Isaiah are also in conflict with your theory, in that we are told the Lord takes them aside and tenderly speaks to them privately.  There is no scripture to support your theory that their conversion is regarding their seeing Him come to rapture the church, whilst leaving them behind to suffer.

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 1:32 AM, not an echo said:

Jesus says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven..." (Matt. 24:30).  I'm thinking, now that will be an event!  Wingnut-, don't you think this will be an event??? 

 

No, it is marking the event, which is His coming.  In the reaction quoted from the sixth seal, is anyone quoted as reacting to the sign, or are they saying things like, "Hide us from His face and wrath?"  His face is something specific, and to see someone's face, doesn't it require a certain proximity?  His wrath occurs upon His arrival, everything surrounding this event is in response to His coming.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 1:32 AM, not an echo said:

Those left behind will be shaking their heads, rubbing their eyes in bewilderment, and facing a lot of woe.  They will not escape, again, all in perfect harmony with what Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:1-4.

 

Only when the term sudden destruction is applied to the scenario, again this negates a 7 year period of time that follows.  7 years is not sudden. The phrase sudden destruction appears in verse 3, and your scenario does not meet the requirements of sudden destruction.  What it appears is happening based on your reference to how the gathering occurs quickly, is that you are applying sudden destruction to sudden escape.

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 12:08 PM, not an echo said:

In your statement in parenthesis, I initially thought that by the it, you were referring to the Second Coming (in tune with your statements in 1. and 2. and all the other its).  Can you clarify just a little further so I can be sure I'm understanding you?

 

You are correct, I am referring to His coming, and the sudden destruction that occurs as a result.