A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 2:28 PM, not an echo said:

Yes, they are separated in Scripture, but sometimes not so apparent.  Kind of like a binary star, it looks like a single, till you home in closer, then it is discovered that it is two.  For clarification, I feel that saying Christ's return will be in two phases or two parts is generally sufficient, but I never talk very long about it without reinforcing that His return involves His Sign Return for the rapture of the Church (the sign is for the Israelites), and later, His Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon, after which He will reign upon the earth for 1000 years.  The two parts or phases of His return are right before our very eyes in The Revelation---His Sign Return (the 1st phase of His return) with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:15-17, and later, His Second Coming (the 2nd phase of His return) in Revelation 19:11-21.

 

My friend, I really hope you don't take this other than as intended, but it needs to be said.  The three gospel accounts, I know them all by heart and exactly what they say, and not one of them gives any indication of a separate event, all three reference His coming.  The same is true of all scriptural accounts, the term His coming is used over and over again, and in each instance it is speaking to the same thing.  

What you are doing here, is creating an event that is not scriptural, and you have even assigned it a title, His Sign Return.  The test of scripture in regards to the validity of this is simple, show me the scripture that uses that term, His Sign Return, or Sign Return, even a Sign Return I would accept.  Minus any evidence or appearance of this found in scripture, it is not scriptural, it is something you are attempting to force into scripture.

Now here is the thing, according to you, this Sign Return is for the Israelites, so producing scripture to support such an event should be extremely easy to do considering the massive amounts of Old Testament prophecies that discuss the Israelites and what is going on with them at this time.  So, show me the scripture where Jesus appears and the Israelites see Him, and then He gathers up the church and leaves them standing there with no acknowledgement at all.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 2:28 PM, not an echo said:

What is right before our eyes in The Revelation is consistently reinforced by what Jesus says in Matthew 24:26-28 (His Second Coming), Matthew 24:29-51 (His Sign Return/consistent with Mark and Luke's parallel accounts), what Paul says in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 coupled with 5:1-11, what he says in II Thessalonians 2:1-2 (I understand the "day of Christ" as being the day of His Second Coming), and also Joel's prophecy, as the Church era connection is made by Peter (Acts 2:16-21).

 

Unless you can produce scripture that refers to this Sign Return, or scripture that speaks to the event of this and what you are assigning to it, then it continues to lack credibility.  The phrase certainly does not appear in any of the scripture mentioned above, nor does any of that scripture address the Israelites being left in the lurch as you have described.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 2:28 PM, not an echo said:

Have you ever thought about Joel's prophecy, the Day of Pentecost, the 6th Seal, the extent of the Church era, and the other related convergences with what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31? 

 

When you say Joel's prophecy that is quite a bit of material, much of which has nothing to do with these things.  Do you mean in chapter 2 where Joel talks about the locust army?  That event is historical, and was fulfilled when a literal army of locusts descended on Israel.  You mention Pentecost, so are you referring to what Peter said was fulfilled there?  Obviously if it was fulfilled at that time, it is also historical.

Or are you questioning what was fulfilled according to Peter?  Are you speaking to Joel's prophecy regarding the former rain and the latter rain?

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 2:52 PM, not an echo said:

I interpret the event of Matthew 24:29-31 as encompassing a very short amount of time, as reflected by our transformation and subsequent gathering happening in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:51-52).  Of course, it's not hard to envision the celestial signs lingering, or continuing afterward, and there will be all the repercussions relating to this event. 

 

The celestial events, you mean the sun going dark, the moon going dark, and the stars falling from the sky?  You're saying it isn't hard to envision these things lingering, so I have to ask this, exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back?  These events are a particular problem for you, because the conditions that result from such a thing is called, total darkness.  7 years of total darkness, is this what you envision?  If so, explain this.

 

Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

 

And of course you have other issues, relating to events that would follow this by your chronology relating to the sun specifically.

 

Revelation 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

 

Revelation 8:10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter.

 

12 The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night.

 

There are a few examples that you have to contend with, and while you can certainly make an argument that the condition of the sun and moon can be restored, there is no explanation as to how the stars would return to the sky.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 2:52 PM, not an echo said:

I interpret the event of Matthew 24:29-31 as encompassing a very short amount of time, as reflected by our transformation and subsequent gathering happening in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:51-52).

 

Well the interesting thing here, is the very chapter you have pointed to.  What is the context of I Corinthians 15 about?  The entire body of the chapter is in regards to what topic?  Resurrection.

The very passage you point to, what does it speak of?

 

I Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

 

Where in Revelation does John tell us this takes place?

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

Now, hopefully your response won't go the route so many seem to take now out of desperation and attempt to argue that first doesn't actually mean first, because the argument is so ridiculous I won't even entertain it.  Instead, I hope you and anyone else reading will consider the last part that I highlighted.  Why does the second death have no power over those who are part of the first resurrection?

Deductive reasoning should lead one to understand, that once a person has been translated from the perishable into the imperishable, they cannot be extinguished.  Imperishable by its very definition correlates to everlasting.  This is precisely what occurs as we are gathered, in the twinkling of an eye, we are raised imperishable.  Another part of this passage related to timing that absolutely does not align with your theory, is verse 4.  How can those who were beheaded for Jesus's testimony, and not worshiped the beast or taken his mark be included in the first resurrection when according to you none of this has taken place?

This is what I want you to consider I am referencing when I have pointed out that what dispensationalism has done, is exclude the natural branches, being the Israelites, from being called "Blessed and Holy".  Anyone you leave out of the first resurrection, you are removing from the body, as well as the very promises that were specifically made to the Jewish people in regards to their inheritance, which is the same as ours.

You have to account for I Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and ask yourself if it seems right that the Jewish people cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 3:04 PM, not an echo said:

As I understand the accounts, these are signs that will accompany The Sign.

 

What we have is a picture being painted, you have to envision what is being said and paint a mental picture.  This is what I see.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

At this point, what you should be envisioning is total darkness.  This event sets the stage for what is to follow, because in order for the next phase to have the desired effect, total darkness is required.  I believe there will be a half hour time period from when this occurs, to what follows.

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

From a state of total darkness comes this next sign, and it was previously disclosed to you as to how it will occur.  

 

Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

Have you ever been in a nasty storm, where it is really dark, and then lightning flashes in the sky?  You don't even have to be looking, you could be standing in your house staring at a wall, but when that lightning flashes you see this sudden light, and you know it was lightning.  The difference in this instance, the light will not just flash and go away like actual lightning does, this is just a metaphorical use of lightning so that you as the reader can get a mental picture.

The expression about it comes from the east as far as the west is a phrase that is used multiple times in scripture to relate to us that this is an all encompassing effect.  The same terminology is used to express the removal of our sins, as far as the east is to the west they are removed.  EVERYONE on earth will see Him coming because out of the darkness comes this brilliant light, and it is drawing closer.

 

Here is what you have to understand, these events that create total darkness are necessary to set the scene for His coming.  They do not reoccur later in scripture, this is a one time thing that takes place at the 6th seal, there is nothing that takes place at what you consider the end to duplicate this scenario.  So either you have 7 years of total darkness, which later trumpet and bowl judgements make impossible, or this event occurs at the end of the tribulation as Jesus said it does.

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

As I believe we all should, I am merely endeavoring to understand in accord with what is revealed in Scripture---understanding all the while that "we know in part" (I Cor. 13:9) and "see through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).

 

I just want to say for the record, I absolutely have no doubts about your sincerity or to whom your loyalty belongs.  You are a brother in Christ, I have no doubts about that, so I hope you understand my responses are not meant as accusatory, or that I am assigning any malice to your intentions.  I have no doubt you fully believe what you are presenting is true or you wouldn't present it.  What I am trying to point out, is that we are given specific instructions regarding how to verify the truth of a matter, and the instructions are to test everything against scripture, like the Bereans did.  If something cannot be found in scripture, it simply isn't true, and everything requires two or more witnesses to establish credibility.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

In my thinking, what Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:1 is easy to deduce as being the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven"

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

The second Coming is its own event, considering you see them as two separate events, why would you try to change this into your alternate event when it is already identified?  If it were your alternate event, wouldn't Paul have wrote, Now concerning the Sign Return of our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

On 7/25/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

According to the KJV, the day that Paul is here talking about is "the Day of Christ (Christos)" (II Thess. 2:2/KJV), not "the Day of the Lord (Kurios)" as modern versions have it.  So, we have more than a version concern, we have a manuscript discrepancy.  Is there really even a concern here?

 

I had said at the beginning of the discussion I wasn't going to engage in any debate regarding the reliability of scripture in regards to translations, but in this instance I am willing to make an exception because this is a valid question with honorable motives.

The first thing we have to ask ourselves is, did the translators have deception on their mind when this slight alteration was made, and does it have any significance as far as impact on the message?   The first thing that would be required is a second witness.  Is there another example in scripture, where a different writer makes a distinction to set apart a specific "Day of Christ"?  There are none to speak of, so in absence of a second witness, the idea of a distinction doesn't ring true.

So what purpose would the translators have for making the alteration, since changing it doesn't seem to have any necessity?  What they changed it to reveals the answer.

 

If we go back to the very start of His first advent and examine the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah, what we find is that the prophets used the terminology Day of the Lord in conjunction with what we know as the Second Coming.  Of course there are also prophecies regarding His first advent, where the Messiah is spoken of as the suffering servant which depict His death and resurrection as being necessary, and also reveal that the Israelites would reject Him.  The reason they rejected Him is because they failed to understand or connect the suffering servant to the Messiah, their expectations for the Messiah were based on all the prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord.

When Jesus came, they expected Him to wipe out the Romans and restore Israel's sovereign status under His rulership.  Christ, or Christos in the Greek, means Messiah.  So the day of Christ = day of the Messiah, which is the equivalent of all the Messianic prophecies referring to the Day of the Lord.  Like for example, this one.

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

 

Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.

8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.

9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

 

This of course but one example, I could post so many more but don't find it necessary.  It should be fairly clear there is no great conspiracy about a single change in translations that does not alter the meaning or point us to anything other than the same exact day, a unique day, which was known as the Day of the Lord from long before Christ walked the earth.  No matter what name it is called by, every single instance points to the only one who is Coming, Christ.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

Consider:  Paul had talked to the Thessalonians about "the Day of the Lord (Kurios),"  and of that day he told them, "For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord (Kurios) so cometh as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2).  Would it be going to far to suggest that he did not really have to explain to them further about the Day of Kurios?  But, it appears that they were a little fuzzy concerning the Day of Christos.  As it shapes up to me, Paul is now speaking to them about Christ's Second Coming, which will not come "as a thief in the night."  Why???  Because "THAT DAY shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3). 

 

You're trying to make a conspiracy about an alteration that was done for clarity, and that ultimately is leading you to all the wrong conclusions.  First, start with the fact the falling away occurred in the 1st century, per Luke, which you still have not reconciled to your timeline.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Luke opens with this information, pay particular attention to the last sentence please, terrors and great signs from heaven.  Where would you say that falls on the timeline?  Does it sound anything like what takes place in Revelation that we have been discussing? 

Watch what immediately follows, and please apply the verbal cues to timing of events.

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

These things happened to His disciples, the very men He was speaking to, and according to His timeline it occurred prior to even the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.  There is no getting around this fact, it is not even disputable, so it is time to adjust your chronology of the accounts in Matthew and Mark in accordance with the facts established from Luke.  The events in verses 12-19 come before those in verses 10 and 11.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

As it shapes up to me, Paul is now speaking to them about Christ's Second Coming, which will not come "as a thief in the night."  Why??? 

 

Issue number two, Paul already tells us why, and you are attempting to give us a completely different reason than Paul actually says.

 

I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is, why in verse 4 does Paul say to "The Church", the day of the Lord won't come like a thief because you are not in darkness?  If there was even a shred of validity to the pre-trib theory, what Paul would have said "But you won't be here, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief."  Can you explain why Paul didn't?

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:47 PM, not an echo said:

I have read what you here have to say about the three woes, however, I haven't really got my head wrapped around what all you are getting at.  But, I'm certainly going to consider further.

 

I'm glad you are taking time to consider it, because at the end of the day, to understand what is to take place it is imperative that our timeline is established by known events that we can positively identify within scripture.  The three woes are some of these examples, tied to known events, and also identified apart from those events specifically so we can establish a sequence within the Revelation.  The things described following the 7th trumpet are also known events that serve in the same manner, which is why these two areas are so important.  The resurrection, which is the equivalent of the gathering is another example.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 11:47 PM, not an echo said:

In the meantime, and related to the chronology issue, I am curious concerning the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe, and your view of the rapture/gathering in connection with this trumpet.  Do you see the rapture/gathering happening concurrent with the trumpet sound?

 

I suspect that may be the case, based on the timing of events, but I am not dogmatic about it because no one can say definitively either way since it is not said or directly linked to any of the statements made at the 7th trumpet.  One of the issues regarding the timing of the gathering is that from the information in Revelation, we can conclude based on all of scripture that the first resurrection relates to it, and also one other area that include statements that point to it as well.  The example I have in mind would be linked to the events resulting from the second woe, 6th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

 

This one, involving the two witnesses, goes hand in hand with everything we know about the gathering.  They are called up to heaven by a heavenly voice, in a cloud.  Since John only points to one such resurrection, the logical deduction is that these two witnesses are part of that same resurrection, and why wouldn't two very important servants of God be called blessed and holy as those in the first resurrection are called.

Now what immediately follows the above verse is that in the same hour there is a massive earthquake, and then it tells us the second woe is done and the third comes quickly.  The third being the 7th trumpet.  Since the second woe is concluding, it is safe to say that it is not the 6th trumpet call that is the gathering because that happens prior to this and these events are a result of it.  But since it says the third woe comes quickly, that would seem to indicate the 7th trumpet still hasn't sounded.  It could be that the 7th trumpet does sound, and that statement is just associating the closeness of the two trumpets, or it could be that the trump of God is distinct and separate from these trumpets and just happens to occur around the same time frame with no specific mention in Revelation.

As I've stated before the final events I see happening in rapid succession, right on top of each other, and I have also made reference to the 6's and 7's.  By that I mean the seal, trumpet, and bowl of each of those numbers, and I also believe they come in that order, seal first, trumpet second, bowl third.  But I also see these overlapping each other in many instances, so for example the 6th bowl events can be going on at the time the 7th seal or anything following it are beginning.  Sudden destruction, wrath kindled quickly.

If you look closely at these 6 events, you will see a correlation between the exact same things or results of those things happening within them.  Another way to say it is this, once the 6th seal is open, the 7th seal can be opened, the 6th trumpet or 6th bowl events do not have to be over, they can still be in progress. The same is true of the trumpets and bowls, they must progress in numerical order, but once the 6th has been initiated, the 7th can follow at any time.  I hope that makes sense to you in regards to what I mean by overlapping.

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 9:13 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 1:52 PM, not an echo said:

I interpret the event of Matthew 24:29-31 as encompassing a very short amount of time, as reflected by our transformation and subsequent gathering happening in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:51-52).  Of course, it's not hard to envision the celestial signs lingering, or continuing afterward, and there will be all the repercussions relating to this event. 

 

The celestial events, you mean the sun going dark, the moon going dark, and the stars falling from the sky?  You're saying it isn't hard to envision these things lingering, so I have to ask this, exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back?  These events are a particular problem for you, because the conditions that result from such a thing is called, total darkness.  7 years of total darkness, is this what you envision?  If so, explain this.

Hello wingnut-,

I must say, as I have been reading through your replies, you have done gone and made me cringe again and again.  If it was anyone but you wingnut-, I would think that he or she was just being closed-minded to my thoughts. 

I would normally not try to do any replying during my work week (unless I get some surprise time off like I did the other day!), but I would like to make a couple of clarifications before turning in.

I'm totally with you on wondering "exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back?"  Really, I've only ever thought of what Jesus is talking about (Matt. 24:29) being like what John described (Rev. 6:13).  I'm thinking of like what you could expect to see if you stepped outside to observe a major meteor shower---only of a much greater magnitude.  Just a little sidebar (and pure speculation):  I have wondered if the disturbances that will be happening at this time will cause all the satellites to be shaken out of their orbits, lending to the phenomenon.  I just Goggled the number of satellites presently orbiting the earth and the number 2,666 came up.  It is said that even a particle the size of a pea entering the Earth's atmosphere looks like what we commonly call "a falling star."

And concerning the sun going dark, I have certainly never thought in terms of this continuing for seven years!  Or five, or one, or even a month.  As a matter of fact, because of the absence of any related time frames, I can see the first four trumpets being sounded later, the same day that the 6th and 7th Seals are opened, and we know that the 4th Trumpet results in day and night time light being diminished by 1/3 (Rev. 8:12).  So, seeing this possibility as I do, I see the darkening of the sun at the opening of the 6th Seal lasting only a few minutes, or hours.  I think of the total eclipse that happened in 2017.  I was in a prime viewing location, and it was really amazing.  For some 5 minutes, the eclipse was total.  The roosters even crowed!  Now, please understand that I by no means think that this eclipse will even remotely compare to what will happen with the opening of the 6th Seal.  My main point is that before the day is done, I can see day and night time light being diminished by the one-third spoken of in Revelation 8:12.

So, my concept of lingering is comparable to the ripples in a pond after a big splash is made.  And repercussions?  I'm thinking repercussions in tune with what happened the day those jets hit the Twin Towers.  Only, the repercussions related to the day that the 6th Seal is opened will be greater.  A lot greater.  Like the Noahic flood compared to a local flood.

It's really hard for me to leave off in the face of so much that I am wanting to respond to, but I must.  Hoping to be able to check back in come the weekend.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

I must say, as I have been reading through your replies, you have done gone and made me cringe again and again.  If it was anyone but you wingnut-, I would think that he or she was just being closed-minded to my thoughts.

 

I'm not sure if that is good or bad, it doesn't sound like a positive, but I know when I've challenged my own thoughts in the past it made me cringe a bit too at times.  If it's bad, I apologize for that, I know I am blunt or direct so it does come off to some as aggressive.  I guess I just prefer to get to the point is all.  As far as the closed minded, that isn't the case, the problem to this point is you are not giving me any evidence that supports your claims in scripture.

 

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm totally with you on wondering "exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back?"  Really, I've only ever thought of what Jesus is talking about (Matt. 24:29) being like what John described (Rev. 6:13).  I'm thinking of like what you could expect to see if you stepped outside to observe a major meteor shower---only of a much greater magnitude.

 

I have considered some of the possibilities in the past, in regards to these things being the result of natural phenomenon.  The problem that you eventually run into is, when you consider a solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, in both instances they require the participation of the other object in question.  In the scenario presented at the 6th seal both celestial objects are affected at the same time, that has never occurred before.  In light of that I have concluded this can only be accomplished by a divine act, and as a result to me the same will apply to the stars.  The issue with stars is even broader, because we have no idea what actual distance they are from us, so if you consider most of them are considered to be such a great distance, where are they falling to?  Certainly not to earth.  I envision something along the lines of what some of the OT prophecies speak to, God will just move His hand and "wipe" them away.

 

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

And concerning the sun going dark, I have certainly never thought in terms of this continuing for seven years!

 

I didn't imagine you did, which was why I asked the question.  But, I still think that presents problems that you have to account for.  Keep in mind what we do know, the issue of total darkness and this requirement for the sign of His coming.  Also, consider what I said above, these celestial conditions are unique, and consider all of that in light of Zechariah's prophecy that I touched on in a previous post.

 

Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.

 

I'm sure you agree with me that Zechariah is speaking about the day of the Lord, in which He has come.  Then, you have to ask yourself, can a day of darkness be unique if the same conditions occurred seven years prior?  Neither day or night, no sun or moon to make it either, and then see if what occurs at the 6th seal can be accounted for in any other event that follows.

[not an echo]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:44 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, not an echo said:

As I believe we all should, I am merely endeavoring to understand in accord with what is revealed in Scripture---understanding all the while that "we know in part" (I Cor. 13:9) and "see through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).

 

I just want to say for the record, I absolutely have no doubts about your sincerity or to whom your loyalty belongs.  You are a brother in Christ, I have no doubts about that, so I hope you understand my responses are not meant as accusatory, or that I am assigning any malice to your intentions.  I have no doubt you fully believe what you are presenting is true or you wouldn't present it.  What I am trying to point out, is that we are given specific instructions regarding how to verify the truth of a matter, and the instructions are to test everything against scripture, like the Bereans did.  If something cannot be found in scripture, it simply isn't true, and everything requires two or more witnesses to establish credibility.

Hey wingnut-,

Well, my weekend and the day has gotten away from me, and it looks like tomorrow is going to be full.  Just didn't want too much time to pass without saying that I appreciate you expressing your confidence that I am a brother in Christ.  I am counting you a brother in Christ as well.  Hmmm, you know, I think that's a good thing for brothers to do.  Just wanted to let you know that my not making any replies this weekend has nothing to do with you or your manner.  Hope to be able to get back next weekend.

[not an echo]

On 7/10/2020 at 2:09 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/10/2020 at 11:52 AM, not an echo said:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that will be experienced and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

 

What prophecy are you referring to in which a removal is spoken of?  In regards to the prophecy I see, the remnant of Israel is not going to experience the tribulation you predict.

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Well, another weekend has almost gotten away from me.  My how time flies!  Barring any interruptions this afternoon, maybe I can make some good headway on some more installments.

Concerning your question, I am speaking about that that will occur at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  when the Church will be gathered (Matt. 24:31).  This is also at the same time Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5 when the Church will escape the period of the Day of the Lord (which is not Daniel's 70th Week, but includes it).  This happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.

Concerning the last sentence of your reply, one note that I might need to make is that the tribulation I am referring to in the above statement concerns the Church.  So, for a little bit of clarity, consider my statement with this edit:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that the Church will experience and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

Now, concerning Israel, with you believing that Daniel's 70th Week has already been fulfilled (if I have understood you correctly), I'm not sure how you are seeing the time of tribulation that I believe the Israelites will experience.  For example, do you not think that Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15-21 pertain to the Israelites?

On 7/10/2020 at 2:09 PM, wingnut- said:

Isaiah also confirms what Hosea had to say, but one important aspect of the above is the final segment I posted, in which the word betrothed is used.  The fact that these individuals are His bride it creates serious issues with your timing in which the bride is gathered.  Either the bride is one body, or Jesus is a polygamist and this bride in most pre-trib scenarios is shunned from the marriage supper.

As far as the Church, I believe we are in full agreement that it is one body, whether a saved Jew or Gentile.  All that come to Christ are a part of the same body.  Also, at the time of Christ's Second Advent, when the Israelites as a nation will experience salvation, I see them as becoming a part of the body of Christ as well...all equally God's children.  Same during Christ's Millennial Reign.  All who are saved will be equally God's children, and in my thinking, none will be "shunned from the marriage supper."

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:08 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/11/2020 at 7:25 PM, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I believe you (as most others do) see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the time of Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon, commonly referred to as His Second Coming. 

 

For me it is quite simple, everything I believe starts and ends with what Jesus said regarding a matter.  The context of the Olivet discourse is very clear, the disciples privately ask Him WHEN the sign of His coming will be, and everything He says is in response to that question as well as their question regarding the end of the age.  This is the context under which the chapter should be read if one desires to reach the proper conclusion.

I could say some things similarly, especially relating to your first sentence.  And, if we only had what we have in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, we would have to stop there.  But, we have more related Scripture, and this causes me (and should cause us all) to consider further.

First, with Jesus' discourse, it is evident to me that what He said in verses 4-14 connects with and/or has characterized the era of the Church.  This is not something that can be lightly dismissed.  When I consider this in conjunction with the opening three verses of The Revelation, the parallels of the first five seals with Jesus' opening words, and what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, I am caused to pause.  Then, when I note that there is no clear reference in The Revelation concerning Daniel's 70th Week until mid-Revelation (e.g., 11:1-3ff), I have to factor all of this into the prophetic puzzle, if you will.

From a different angle, I can see what I refer to as the two opening sections of Jesus' discourse (Matt. 24:4-14, then 15-28) as outlining what will come to pass from the first century to the time of the end (vss. 26-28)---WITH AN INTERSECTING EVENT!  The intersecting event is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vss. 29-31), which is the focus of everything Jesus said until the end of the chapter.  I hope you will consider this closer.

In view of this, the first two sections of Jesus' discourse (outlining what will take place throughout the Church era until the time of the end) brings us to the event of Christ's Second Advent, which closes section two (vss. 26-28).  From a different angle, 

#1---The focus of the first section concerns the era of the Church (Matt. 24:4-14).

#2---The focus of the second section concerns Daniel's 70th Week, which is closed by Christ's Second Advent (Matt. 24:15-28).

#3---The focus of the third, or last section, concerns the intersecting event, which will take place between the first and second sections (Matt. 24:29-51).

Concerning some information in the second section that we also see in the first section (something you have brought up elsewhere), we know that there have been many false prophets and Christs to arise throughout the era of the Church.  It should not surprise us that such will also be the case after the Church is gone, with the Beast of the Revelation, commonly referred to as the Antichrist (and I believe rightly so), rising to preeminence.

Concerning the "sights" and "signs" spoken of in Luke 21:11b, I see Luke's mention of this---connected with the first section---as linking the end of the first section with his account of the intersecting event (vss. 25-27ff).  Again, the intersecting event of which I speak is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), what I commonly refer to as Jesus' Sign Return.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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