The two promises of God that contradict each other

[alaric_w]

13 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

 

If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the picture you have bigger problems.     The Trinity is one God.   When one member is there, so are all three.

If the Holy Spirit is not there, then no one can be born again.     It is only an unproven assumption that people in the Tribulation will become Christians.

Your proof text has,  " So God will send them something powerful that leads them away from the truth and causes them to believe a lie. "

Think of the story of the seeds falling on different grounds.   Someone comes along to steal what?

Concerning Salvation, The Father draws,   Jesus died and one is reborn by the Holy Spirit.

No Holy Spirit, no rebirth.  Acts 1 makes it plain that the Father determines dates and times. 

 

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don’t come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work.

I am inferring that the Holy Spirit would also be in the man Jesus.

"It was by the Spirit's power that He performed signs and wonders (Matt. 12:28; Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38), it was by the Spirit’s power that He cast out demons (Matthew 12:28), and it was by the power of the Spirit that He proclaimed the gospel (Luke 4:18; Matt. 12:18; Acts 1:2). Just as He was directed not by His own agenda, but by His Father's (John 5:19-20,30; 8:26-29,42; 14:10,24), so He was driven not by His own power, but by the Spirit's. Jesus was sent to earth by the Father with a mission to fulfill. When the time for the mission arrived, God gave Him the Spirit to empower Him to fulfill the mission."

https://www.gpcweb.org/the-holy-spirit--6-the-holy-spirit-and-jesus-christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Holy Spirit is taken out from earth back to Heaven. Not taken out of the picture. But rather step aside for Satan to do as prophesize in the bible.

If the Holy Spirit is not removed, then the anti-christ cannot show himself and the 7 years tribulation cannot start.

Edited June 12, 2020 by alaric_w

[Daniel Marsh]

5 hours ago, alaric_w said:

The Holy Spirit is taken out from earth back to Heaven. Not taken out of the picture. But rather step aside for Satan to do as prophesize in the bible.

If the Holy Spirit is not removed, then the anti-christ cannot show himself and the 7 years tribulation cannot start.

God is omnipresent, it is one of his attributes.    That is why people can become born of the HS on earth.

In Acts 1,  we learn that the Father determines dates and times.   It makes more sense, if he stops holding it all back. 

But, he would still be present.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Other possibilities are:

"Will let, until he be taken out of the way - This will be an effectual check on these corruptions, preventing their full development, until it is removed, and then the man of sin will appear. The supposition which will best suit this language is, that there was then some civil restraint, preventing the development of existing corruptions, but that there would be a removal, or withdrawing of that restraint; and that then the tendency of the existing corruptions would be seen. It is evident, as Oldshausen remarks, that this resisting or restraining power must be something out of the church, and distinguished from the anti-Christian tendency itself; yon der Kirche und vom Antichristenthum. It is necessary, therefore, to understand this of the restraints of civil power. Was there, then, any fact in history which will accord with this interpretation? The belief among the primitive Christians was, that what hindered the rise of the man of sin was the Roman empire, and therefore "they prayed for its peace and welfare, as knowing that when the Roman empire should be dissolved and broken in pieces, the empire of the man of sin would be raised on its ruins.""  

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

 

"Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way: the idolatries and persecutions of the heathen emperors must be taken out of the way, to make way for those that arise under a Christian, or rather antichristian, state, the dragon giving his seat, spirit, and power to the beast. And the power that was in the Roman emperor, whether heathen or Christian, must be taken out of the way to make room for the exaltation of this man of sin"  

 

"

(7) He foretells that when the empire of Rome is taken away, the seat that falls away from God will succeed and hold its place, as the old writers, Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome explain and interpret it.

(h) He who is now in authority and rules all, that is, the Roman Empire."

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

 

" For the Apostle contemplates the power of Lawlessness in its ultimate manifestation, as embodied in some one human antagonist of Christ; whereas the restraint that delays his appearance is thought of rather as a general influence, or principle, which at the same time has its personal representatives. We prefer, therefore, to render St Paul’s phrase he that restraineth rather than one that restraineth; for it signifies not an individual, but a class.

Where then are we to look, amongst the influences prevalent in the Apostle’s time and known to his Thessalonian readers, for the check and bridle of Lawlessness? Where but to law itself (Staat und Gesetz Dorner)? The fabric of civil law and the authority of the magistrate formed a bulwark and break water against the excesses both of autocratic tyranny and of popular violence. For this power St Paul had a profound respect (see Romans 13:1-7). He was himself a citizen of Rome, and had reason to value the protection of her laws. (See Acts 16:35-39; Acts 22:23-29; Acts 25:10-12.) About this very time he found in the upright Proconsul, Gallio (brother of Seneca, the tutor and ill-fated “restrainer” of Nero), a shield from the lawlessness of the Jewish mob at Corinth; the Thessalonian “politarchs” at least tried to do him justice (Acts 17:5-9). We must distinguish between the laws of the Roman State and the personal power of the Emperor, whose despotism habitually trampled on the laws and yet was checked by them. Within a year of the writing of this letter Nero assumed the purple, who pushed the principle of lawless autocracy, the idolatry of a wicked human will, to lengths unimagined before. In Nero’s reign it seemed as though St Paul’s vision of the Man of Lawlessness were already realised. This monster of depravity, “the lion” of 2 Timothy 4:17, stood for the portrait of “the wild beast” of St John’s Apocalypse, which carries forward Paul’s image of the Lawless One, as the latter takes up Daniel’s conception of the godless king, impersonated In Antiochus Epiphanes."  https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

""Antichrist does not step on the scene suddenly without any preparations; on the contrary, a stream of anti-christian sentiment and conduct pervades the whole history of the world" (Olshausen). Only he that now letteth; or, restraineth, the old meaning of the word "let." Will let. These words are not in the original, and ought to be omitted. Until he be taken out of the way. The whole clause ought to be rendered, "The mystery of lawlessness is already working, only until he who restraineth is removed;" when that takes place, when the restraining influence is removed, the mystery of lawlessness will no longer work secretly, but will be openly manifested."  

 

In short, two possible answers are Roman Government or the Law is the restrainer. 

 

What is the earliest commentary that you can find that says it or he is the Holy Spirit?

 

I admit that I do not find any commentary that says it is the Father, but based on Acts 1 and the role of the Father simply stopping from hold it all back makes sense.   This is all new study for me. 

 

 

 

[Dennis1209]

On 6/7/2020 at 5:24 PM, TheBlade said:

Its written "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."
 

If you look at the "mark" as some chip and people are putting these chips in there hands and what not. Then seems someone could take the mark by mistake. the word is clear on this. Those that worship the beast and takes its mark are lost forever.  The problem here is.. people keep by passing the WORSHIP part and jump right to OH NO THE MARK! A ...ALL will have to worship the beast first. If they didn't they are killed. Those that just worshiped the beast are lost forever.

But the word of God already told you who will worship the beast. See its not some chip. Hes doing lying wonders things we have never seen. And they will KNOW that they know that they know they are saying no to God and yes to the AntiChrist. Thats why they are lost. They are making a final choice. None of them were are saved. Again the word tell us this.

I agree with your thoughts, and perhaps there's more to it? History and the Bible is full of examples of occultists, idol worshipers and satanic worshipers and followers, that repented and were redeemed by the blood of Christ and became saved. What's so different about this mark of the Beast that automatically condemns ones soul to Hell for all eternity, with zero chance of repentance and Salvation?  Consider the following and is it a possibility in our current technological world:

Can an animal be redeemed, and what does it mean to be human? What percentage difference is there in our DNA genome and that of say, a monkey? I've heard reputable geneticists claim that if our DNA changes just by 1%, we cease to be fully human. 

Luke 17:26 (KJV) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. [prior to Christ's 2nd Coming]

Genesis 6:9 (KJV) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. [emphasis added]

Noah was not sinless, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So what made Noah perfect and the rest of the globe imperfect, of which the Lord had to destroy all flesh? There's only one answer if one takes it literal, Genesis 6: 1-5, Peter and Jude gives us the clue. It's public knowledge any one can get a Crisper Cas9 kit and genetically tinker away. We all know the research and experimentation with gene splicing, DNA cutting and pasting now taking place; to produce genetically modified 'super soldiers', space soldiers to withstand the environment of space, cloning, foods [GMO'S], mice with human ears, pigs with human blood, growing human replacement parts in Petri dishes dishes and altering animal and human DNA, all unregulated. 

What about a scenario like this, that's very plausible given our technology right now? Science has developed a new vaccine, that not only is going to make your life more convenient by not having to tote around all your personal information and do away with credit cards, paper transactions, medical information and identity, drivers licenses, etc.. But, it's going to extend your life, monitor and repair your DNA for cancer, heart disease, give you better vision, hearing and stamina, all in one vaccination; a 666 in one vaccination if you will. BUT THERE'S A CATCH!

Do we see the preceding in development and implementation right now as we speak? Far fetched or a conspiracy theory?

[JustPassingThru]

21 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the picture you have bigger problems. 

I've never said that!

...please, ...don't "assume" what "you" think I know and believe, ........I would never do "that" to you...

 

What I don't understand is, ...why do people think the Holy Spirit "won't" be active during the Tribulation? 

It's the Holy Spirit that Father has used for the 6,000 years of world history to draw people to His Son, Jesus Christ, ...why would He stop  during the Tribulation period? 

The "Church" is unique in world history in the reality of, ...it is the only "group" of believers, ...during this dispensation of Grace "only,"  where the Holy Spirit actually comes "inside" of them and takes up residence "in" them for the rest of Eternity. 

 

Friend, my computer time is very limited, so I don't have the time to read long posts filled with Scripture, ...may I ask you just stick to  answering my questions by just posting, as a reference, ...the book, chapter and verse, you are using to verify "your" beliefs, ...and allowing the Holy Spirit "in" me to verify "to" me if it's what "He" has said, ...or not, ...that is the way "He" has been doing it, ...testifying in my spirit Rom 8:16, ...for the 29 years I've been here all alone without any church or like minded brothers to talk with.  

Thanks...

Lord bless

[Kezzo4]

Well, I am sure you probably are speaking of people who will get save during the tribulation period, since of course according to my study the church will not face the tribulation. That being the case then, no one will trust Jesus and yet want to receive the mark of the beast.

Besides, God never faces a dilemma. We are talking about the only wise God who knows all about the past, presence and future.

Thanks however for calling our attention to this.

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/12/2020 at 12:57 AM, alaric_w said:

The Holy Spirit is taken out from earth back to Heaven. Not taken out of the picture. But rather step aside for Satan to do as prophesize in the bible.

If the Holy Spirit is not removed, then the anti-christ cannot show himself and the 7 years tribulation cannot start.

if the HS is removed, then people can not be born of the Spirit. 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:11 PM, Kezzo4 said:

Well, I am sure you probably are speaking of people who will get save during the tribulation period, since of course according to my study the church will not face the tribulation. That being the case then, no one will trust Jesus and yet want to receive the mark of the beast.

Besides, God never faces a dilemma. We are talking about the only wise God who knows all about the past, presence and future.

Thanks however for calling our attention to this.

Since God is OmniPresent, the HS can not be taken out of the picture at all. 

Psalm 139:7-12
Where can I go from Your Spirit?

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

 

 

[alaric_w]

4 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

if the HS is removed, then people can not be born of the Spirit. 

Firstly, you need to ask God for wisdom.

There is a similarity between old testament saints and tribulation saints. Both are not sealed with the Holy Spirit

In the old testament before Jesus died and paid for our sins,  the Holy Spirit cannot seal itself within a believer because they are still unclean as sin is not removed. After Jesus rose from the dead, he brought all old testament saints with him.

Matthew 27:51-53 tells us what happened right after Jesus Christ died: “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”

In the tribulation, believers cannot be seal with the Holy Spirit since it has been removed and got beheaded by the anti-christ. But God will raise them up when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation. 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by alaric_w

[Sister]

On 6/7/2020 at 3:22 PM, alaric_w said:

What happen if a Christian who is saved eternally receives the Mark of the Beast? It will result in conflict for God's promise of eternal salvation and eternal condemnation. This will put God in dilemma because he cannot go back on his word or lie. And it is because this reason, we have assurance of our eternal salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Hi alaric_w

Matthew 10:22   And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

James 1:12   Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

 

John 14:15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

 

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How can God prevent this dilemma from happening? It is possible if the Church is no longer physically on earth before the anti-Christ implement the Mark of the Beast.

 

Revelation 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

  Revelation 14:13   And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

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The rapture of the Church is the event that will prevent the conflict of God's promises. The removal of the restrainer is the removal of the Church (Holy Spirit and Temple). Christians sealed with the Holy Spirit and each christian is a temple for the Holy Spirit. 

God is the restrainer.  He says what goes.  He has restrained what Satan has wanted to do since the beginning and that is to destroy us all.  If God did not restrain him, then our generation would not even be alive today.  But the day comes when God will open the flood gates to let that evil flow in at it's fullest when the Son of Perdition appears.

The holy spirit is not taken away from the earth, because there will still be believers here that will endure to the end.  We will have the two witnesses here and they will be FULL of the holy spirit.  We have those also who were not killed, those alive at the coming who did not take the MOB.  If no holy spirit here, then how did they make it to the end?

God is not moved.  He sent us Jesus so that we can receive the light.  It's not just all Hallejuah Praise the Lord with our lips, but with our whole heart, soul and mind..  If we follow Jesus, he draws us to the scriptures.  We need to read those scriptures, and not just some scriptures here and there, but all of them so we don't miss any important warnings.  If not, then that does not make God responsible for our actions, but ourselves.  His Word is has already been said, and it will not return back to him void.  You can count on his Word, whether good or bad.  It's all true.

If a Christian thinks he has eternal life, then take the MOB, unfortunately, he will have to go through all the plagues that are dished on Babylon.  It will not look good on him.  It will be a testament that he did not come out of Babylon for all to see.  Cannot serve two masters.  It's God's kingdom or Satan's.  Taking the Mark will be the final initiation on whose side you chose.

 

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.