WilliamL Posted September 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,153 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted September 22, 2020 On 9/18/2020 at 3:27 AM, Diaste said: "And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time." So that's a 'what' is restraining. That would be the events "the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." Which is what is restraining the Coming and the Gathering. But then context is changed 4 verses later to arrive at a different idea. And I as I have shown from the Greek in scripture 'he' isn't 'taken out', he 'emerges'. "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way." The part in bold makes no sense in the context of the first verse and what Paul is teaching. The literal Greek reads, "...merely for now hold fast till he emerges on the world stage in the middle." It makes perfect sense, you just don't want to accept it. The what is the government, the he is the head of that government. Your translation "...merely for now hold fast till he emerges on the world stage in the middle" is what makes no sense, and is not literal Greek at all, not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2020 22 hours ago, WilliamL said: It makes perfect sense, you just don't want to accept it. The what is the government, the he is the head of that government. Your translation "...merely for now hold fast till he emerges on the world stage in the middle" is what makes no sense, and is not literal Greek at all, not even close. No. The rebellion and the revealing are what 'holds back' the Coming and the gathering. That day shall not come except the rebellion and the revealing of the man of sin; when he sits in the Temple and declares himself god. That needs no help in the translation. The rest of the passage must match this idea. If not, its false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted October 1, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,153 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) On 9/23/2020 at 7:46 AM, Diaste said: No. The rebellion and the revealing are what 'holds back' the Coming and the gathering. That day shall not come except the rebellion and the revealing of the man of sin; when he sits in the Temple and declares himself god. That needs no help in the translation. The rest of the passage must match this idea. If not, its false. Only partially right. The passage is a parallelism. A. 2 Thes. 2 1-2 The Parousia of Christ... B. 2:3-4 ...cannot come before the revelation of the Son of Perdition... C. 2:6 ...cannot come while the restrainer is present... C. 2:7 ...so the restrainer must be removed... B. 2:8a ...so the Lawless One can be revealed... A. 2:8b ...whom the Lord will then destroy at His Parousia. Edited October 1, 2020 by WilliamL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted October 3, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2020 On 10/1/2020 at 4:22 PM, WilliamL said: Only partially right. The passage is a parallelism. A. 2 Thes. 2 1-2 The Parousia of Christ... B. 2:3-4 ...cannot come before the revelation of the Son of Perdition... C. 2:6 ...cannot come while the restrainer is present... C. 2:7 ...so the restrainer must be removed... B. 2:8a ...so the Lawless One can be revealed... A. 2:8b ...whom the Lord will then destroy at His Parousia. Pretrib? I guess we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted October 3, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 11:57 AM, WilliamL said: 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know the [thing] restraining [lit., holding down/fast; the Greek is neuter: ‛that which restrains/holds down’], that he [the Son of Perdition] may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only the one now restraining/holding down [the Greek here is masculine: ‛he who restrains/holds fast’] [will do so] until he is come out of the midst. Matthew Henry (d. 1714): “This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time...” [The New Testament writers never openly spoke ill about the Roman authorities. If, as some claim, Paul here meant the Holy Spirit, then there would have been no reason at all for him to speak about it so obscurely.] A. R. Fausser (1871): “...the power that has restrained the man of sin from his full and final development, is the moral and conservative influence of political states [OLSHAUSEN]: the fabric of human polity as a coercive power; as "he who now letteth" refers to those who rule that polity by which the great upbursting of godlessness is kept down [ALFORD]. The "what withholdeth" refers to the general hindrance; "he who now letteth," to the person in whom that hindrance is summed up. Romanism [papal Catholicism], as a forerunner of Antichrist, was thus kept in check by the Roman emperor (the then representative of the coercive power) until Constantine, having removed the seat of empire to Constantinople, the Roman bishop by degrees first raised himself to precedency, then to primacy, and then to sole empire above the secular power.” Can there be any doubt that the spirit of lawlessness is now diligently working to destroy Americaʼs restraining (but waning) power against lawlessness; that is, that this spirit is subverting the governmentʼs ability to hold fast to the order of U.S. law and world law? And that the current “he who restrains/holds fast” is the President of the United States, Donald Trump? (However incompetent to the task he may be.) And that the Son of Perdition is waiting in the wings, preparing to step onto the stage as a deliverer during the coming time of economic and political chaos? Can you show us anywhere in Daniel chapter 11 where Daniel says the King of the north restrains anything? I can understand how he might be restraining the Muslim countries from overuning Israel for a few years and is able to hold them back but after they attack Jerusalem, he destroys them. Im not sure of anything else he may be restraining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted October 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,153 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 On 10/3/2020 at 6:36 AM, Shilohsfoal said: Can you show us anywhere in Daniel chapter 11 where Daniel says the King of the north restrains anything? I can understand how he might be restraining the Muslim countries from overuning Israel for a few years and is able to hold them back but after they attack Jerusalem, he destroys them. Im not sure of anything else he may be restraining. I have never said that the King of the North is the restrainer. Where did you get that idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted October 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,153 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 On 10/3/2020 at 2:16 AM, Diaste said: On 10/1/2020 at 4:22 PM, WilliamL said: Only partially right. The passage is a parallelism. A. 2 Thes. 2 1-2 The Parousia of Christ... B. 2:3-4 ...cannot come before the revelation of the Son of Perdition... C. 2:6 ...cannot come while the restrainer is present... C. 2:7 ...so the restrainer must be removed... B. 2:8a ...so the Lawless One can be revealed... A. 2:8b ...whom the Lord will then destroy at His Parousia. Expand Expand Expand Pretrib? I guess we'll see. Everything pre-Parousia IS pre-trib. See my latest blog post on the Parousia here for the proof: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted October 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, WilliamL said: I have never said that the King of the North is the restrainer. Where did you get that idea? So what would you think Donald Trump can restrain? He can't restrain himself so I don't see how he can restrain anything else. Other than restraining the Muslim countries from destroying Israel, I don't see the US restraining anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted October 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,153 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Shilohsfoal said: Other than restraining the Muslim countries from destroying Israel, I don't see the US restraining anything else. Already answered a number of times, beginning with the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted October 5, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2020 Just now, WilliamL said: Already answered a number of times, beginning with the original post. Why did you ask the question then. If you don't want anyone to answer, stop asking questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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