David1701 Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Deborah_ said: Unbelief in what, exactly? Unbelief in what the Bible states about creation and the reason why death came into the world. Edited July 17, 2020 by David1701 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said: 1 is only an issue, if things reproduce at a high rate, and don't stop. For example, if people live to be 900, then they don't have to pop out a kid every year to build a family. God's instruction was to fill the Earth, not to overfill it. Of course though, in reality, an omniscient God can forsee that death would enter the picture, and build into his creation a way to compensate for that! On statment 2, I do not think you have thought about it much perhaps. Adam and Eve seem to have be created with a working knowledge, the understood words without having to learn what they meant. For example, God said to them: Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. Look there at all the things the did not know yet from experience. What is fruitful, what is the earth, what is dominion, what is a fish? That last one is interesting, because Adam had not named the animals yet. If the first couple could understand God, then they could understand what death meant. In any case, it might not even have meant what we think of now by the term> "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Well, literally speaking as we use the terms typically (day and die), they did not die that day! Edit: Sorry, I had not noticed that some of these points had been made already. Quote but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Well, literally speaking as we use the terms typically (day and die), they did not die that day! The Hebrew reads, literally, "dying, you will die". Adam and Eve died spiritually immediately (i.e. became separated from God in spirit and corrupted) and began to die physically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah_ Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 790 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 878 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 hours ago, David1701 said: Unbelief in what the Bible states about creation and the reason why death came into the world. So are they "excuses" for unbelief, or "reasons" for disagreeing with a particular interpretation? The Bible states that God created the heavens and the earth. I believe that. It doesn't tell us exactly how He did it, or how long ago (we can't be certain that the genealogies in Genesis are complete), or how long it took (the six days of creation may be symbolic rather than literal), so there's room for differences of opinion there. The "world" in the New Testament often refers to the "world of humanity" (as in John 3:16) rather than to the planet Earth. So when Paul says that "death came into the world", he could well be referring just to human death. I believe that human death is the consequence of sin, and that it began with the first humans (Adam and Eve). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah_ Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 790 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 878 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 hours ago, David1701 said: The Hebrew reads, literally, "dying, you will die". Adam and Eve died spiritually immediately (i.e. became separated from God in spirit and corrupted) and began to die physically. Thus is a common Hebrew construction in which the verb is repeated in order to emphasise it. Although what you say about Adam and Eve is absolutely true, it's not in the grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 On 7/15/2020 at 10:05 PM, Sophie2003 said: So, I personally believe that evolution was the process in which God created us. I believe that the Adam and Eve story is not purely history, but a metaphor to explain evolution, and it bothers me when people say “how can you be a Christian if you believe in evolution?” and i always say to them that I don’t view the Bible as 100% literal, because if the Bible were taken 100% literally, it would be acceptable to do things like sell your daughters into slavery. I definitely believe that lots of the stories are literal, for example Jesus rising from the dead, and a lot of other stories. But the ones that can be disproved by science, I believe are metaphors used to convey a bigger meaning. i don’t really want to see comments of people telling me they think I’m wrong on this post. I respect if you have different beliefs, but please respect mine as well. I simply want to know if anybody else on here does share similar views to me? And if so, how do you cope when people tell you that you can’t believe in both science and God? I do not support your theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Deborah_ said: So are they "excuses" for unbelief, or "reasons" for disagreeing with a particular interpretation? The Bible states that God created the heavens and the earth. I believe that. It doesn't tell us exactly how He did it, or how long ago (we can't be certain that the genealogies in Genesis are complete), or how long it took (the six days of creation may be symbolic rather than literal), so there's room for differences of opinion there. The "world" in the New Testament often refers to the "world of humanity" (as in John 3:16) rather than to the planet Earth. So when Paul says that "death came into the world", he could well be referring just to human death. I believe that human death is the consequence of sin, and that it began with the first humans (Adam and Eve). Perhaps you are unaware of the grammatical rules regarding the Hebrew word "Yom" (day). It can mean the same things that the English word means; but, when it is accompanied by a number (e.g. day one), morning, or evening, then it ALWAYS means a literal, 24-hour day. The days in the creation week are accompanied by a number, morning and evening - the full complement, thus making it absolutely beyond doubt that literal, 24-hour days are meant. Even if the genealogies have skipped over a few generations, at an absolute maximum, the age of the Earth would be about 10,000 years, not billions of years. Paul tells us that all of creation is subject to vanity, this is not how things were at the end of the creation week, when pronounced everything "very good". Death came by sin and not only human death, since death is an ENEMY, as the Bible tells us. It is not a friend, as the evolutionists would have us believe. Edited July 17, 2020 by David1701 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Deborah_ said: Thus is a common Hebrew construction in which the verb is repeated in order to emphasise it. Although what you say about Adam and Eve is absolutely true, it's not in the grammar. I know about Hebrew repetition for emphasis; but, dying is a process, not one-off event. He is dying is different from "He died.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah_ Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 790 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 878 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, David1701 said: Perhaps you are unaware of the grammatical rules regarding the Hebrew word "Yom" (day). It can mean the same things that the English word means; but, when it is accompanied by a number (e.g. day one), morning, or evening, then it ALWAYS means a literal, 24-hour day. The days in the creation week are accompanied by a number, morning and evening - the full complement, thus making it absolutely beyond doubt that literal, 24-hour days are meant. Odd that my Hebrew textbook doesn't mention this "rule". Where did you get it from? 14 minutes ago, David1701 said: I know about Hebrew repetition for emphasis; but, dying is a process, not one-off event. He is dying is different from "He died.". "Dying" is the translator's effort to repeat the word "die" in English while still making sense. Grammatically in Hebrew it's a type of infinitive, so the one thing it doesn't mean is "dying". There's no equivalent in English, so in modern versions, they usually translate it as something like "you will surely die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 17, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, Deborah_ said: Odd that my Hebrew textbook doesn't mention this "rule". Where did you get it from? "Dying" is the translator's effort to repeat the word "die" in English while still making sense. Grammatically in Hebrew it's a type of infinitive, so the one thing it doesn't mean is "dying". There's no equivalent in English, so in modern versions, they usually translate it as something like "you will surely die." The rule about "yom" is from biblical usage (there is plenty of it). Here is the conclusion of an article about this subject, from Creation.com. "The syntagmatic relationships of yôm in Genesis 1 have been considered and it has been demonstrated that, when used with a number, the pattern is always a normal time period. If ‘night’ is combined with yôm, it always denotes a 24-hour day. If yôm is used with either ‘morning’ or ‘evening’, they too refer to a literal day. When ‘morning’ and ‘evening’ are used together, with yôm, it always signifies a solar day. So the syntagmatic relationships that yôm has illustrate clearly that the meaning is to be; considered a normal time period, consisting of one axial rotation of the earth, called a ‘day’. The various words that could have been substituted for yôm have been considered by the paradigmatics. There was the possibility that an ancient creation might have been communicated. There were three good ways of saying this in Hebrew. The possibility that the events of creation could still be continuing (that is, theistic evolution) was examined. If this was the intended meaning for Genesis 1, then any one of four choices could have been selected. There is the possibility that the time factor was meant to be ambiguous. If this was the focus of the passage, then the Hebrew language had three possible ways of communicating this point. The Hebrew language also had the potential to communicate that all the events on a ‘day’ were done instantly. The paradigmatic relationships of yôm are indeed significant. The point of discussing the semantic approach should be rather obvious. God, through the ‘pen’ of Moses, is being redundant for redundancy’s sake. God is going out of His way to tell us that the ‘days’ of creation were literal solar days. He has used the word yôm, and combined this with a number and the words ‘morning’ and ‘evening’. God has communicated the words of Genesis 1 in a specific manner, so that the interpreter could not miss His point. God could not have communicated the timing of creation more clearly than He did in Genesis 1. The meaning of words is important for clear communication. It is by their use and contrast that we can accurately arrive at correct biblical interpretation. We can apply a semantic approach to Scripture and believe that we have understood what God wants us to know. As this approach is applied to Genesis 1, the only meaning which is possible is that the ‘days’ of creation were 24 hour days." https://creation.com/the-days-of-creation-a-semantic-approach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted July 18, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2020 21 hours ago, David1701 said: Even if the genealogies have skipped over a few generations, at an absolute maximum, the age of the Earth would be about 10,000 years, not billions of years. When the evidence God has made available to us strongly suggest that the earth and universe are billions of years old, and not thousands, then it bears considering if a literal, non-symbolic, reading of Genesis is appropriate. I don't think it is. Whichever way one reads the Genesis account, we can agree on the fundamentals of the first three chapters. 1. God is Creator of all things. 2. Mankind is the apex of God's creation. 3. God specially-imbued humanity with the ability to communicate with Him. 4. This connection was broken when humans chose sin - essentially, chose their own way over God's. 5. The coming of Jesus Christ was prophesied as a means of God bringing humanity back to Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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