The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

...  
 THESE ARE THE THINGS I NEVER FORGET 

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
 

Some assume that you get credit even if you get it wrong.  That isn't what God says, PERIOD.  If you are not called to preach and you preach falsely you will pay. 

Since this is all true, my suggestion is, you lock yourself into an office, get out your bible, and STUDY before you make another post. God will certainly hold teachers to a higher plane. If you are not called to teach, then DON'T!  

Again, take off your preconceived glasses! The scriptures really do NOT teach a posttrib rapture.
Since you believe in this, please, explain HOW you are going to get to the marriage and supper. You have avoided this over and over. If posttrib is truth, you should easily be able to explain how. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ITS CALLED RIGHTLY DIVIDING.  

Judgment begins at the pulpit.  And that is what this is, when we are putting forth what we write, as facts.  One of us is in big bad trouble.  
When God asks "why did I keep the church here"  I will say "it is written" to overcome.  
When God asks "why did I not rapt" I will say "it is written" that day will not come until after
When God asks "why i taught the time was shortened" I will say "it is written" the time was shortened for the elects sake.

When God asks "why didn't you overcome" where will you point to to say "it is written" Christ will come for the church pre trib?  Not going to be able to use 1 thess as you have been shown 2 thess.  So where do you go?  
When God asks "when I said that day shall not come until after" where will you point to that says "it is written" He will come before?  No where I can find because it is all supposition and wisdom of man.
When God asks "why did you teach a 7 year trib when I had said the time was shortened" where are you going to point to that says "it is written" the time wasn't really shortened.  
 

It seems you just glance over a post, not really understanding it, but instantly trying to come up with a response, because you suspect it is not truth. (Because YOU have the truth.) 

First, you can't find any of those questions in Scripture. They are human imagination. Let's begin here:

1 John 5:4 

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

ARE you born again? If you are, they you are ALREADY an overcomer.  Read it in another version:
4  for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Second, you lack understand of 2 Thes. 2: that passage is just as pretrib as his first letter. Take off your preconceived glasses! Tell us all, at the end of verse 3, is the man of sin revealed, or is he NOT. If he is revealed (as every English translation tells us) HOW did he get revealed? Verses 6 through 8 tells us he CANNOT until the One restraining Him, holding him BACK from being revealed before the time, is taken out of the way. 

Read in the Amplified text:

 

6  And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.

THINK: who knows the appointed time? Who will SET that appointed time? OF COURSE GOD. In other words, it MUST be the power of God doing the restraining for ONLY GOD knows the right time for the man of sin to be revealed. 

In other words, the ONLY WAY the man of sin can be revealed at the end of verse 3 is that the One restraining has been remove, DEPARTED, "taken out of the way." 

They had heard and so came to believe that THE DAY OF THE LORD had come, started, and they were now IN the day of the Lord. And they were greatly UPSET. (the Day of the Lord is a DARK day of wrath and destruction - NOT the day of rapture.) So THINK: WHY would their believing THE DAY had come, would cause them to be upset? Remember, they had his FIRST letter: in that they KNEW it was rapture, then wrath. But now it seemed to them they were IN wrath, but no rapture. Can you see now WHY they would be upset? Perhaps Paul was mistaken! Or perhaps they were left behind!

Paul's argument then was to instruct them on how they could know FOR SURE when the DAY of the Lord would come and be present: 

FIRST: the great DEPARTING must happen: the restrainer "taken out of the way." 
SECOND: then, after number 1, the man of sin gets revealed.

Then anyone who sees these two events will KNOW that the DAY has started and they are IN IT.

Summary: TWO things must happen before someone can know that the Day of the Lord has come. First, the rapture MUST take place, so that the One restraining is taken out of the way. Then, second, the man of sin gets revealed. These are two POSITIVE PROOFS that the Day of the Lord has come. Notice, step 2 CANNOT happen unless step one comes first. Paul wrote "first" with a purpose: step 2 CANNOT happen until step One happens FIRST. (I did not write this, PAUL did.) Did you forget that Pauls THEME was the gathering? So OF COURSE Paul must include the rapture someone in this text. He cloaked it as "the departing." Like it or not, that is what He wrote.  Why not study Strongs on what "apo-stasia" can mean? Have you ever read it?

 

The question is, CAN this word mean something else?  It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

"of separation

of local separation, 

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole, where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place"

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

 

In Paul's first letter, it is "church age" then RAPTURE, then "Day of the Lord." Take off your preconceived glasses and maybe you could see that.  Why would Paul wrote about appointments with His wrath in a RAPTURE passage? Have you ever asked God why?  Why would Paul write of "The day of the Lord" just three verses after his classic rapture verse? Have you ever asked God why?  

Perhaps God will ask many: Why did you not believe me that I would not set appointments for you with my wrath?
Why did you not believe I had an escape planned and you thought you knew better?

Think about it: 7 different places where God has TOLD US (written in stone, so to speak) that the last half of the week would be time, times, and half of time, or 42 months, or 1260 days. Again THINK: SEVEN TIMES God has told us that. Why on earth would ANYONE think that this time could be altered in any way, such as "shortened." It is not TIME that is shortened: there is going to be a full 7 years of the 7th week. TIME does not get shortened. What does get shortened in the NUMBER OF DAYS out of the 1260 days of the Last half of the week, that will be DAYS OF GT.

In other words, instead of 1260 days of GT, it might be 12oo days of GT. But then the rest of the days MUST HAPPEN, but they will just be days of darkness and pain and NOT days of GT. Make no mistake, from the time of the abomination to the time of the 7th vial that will end the week, THERE WILL BE 1260 days. That will NEVER change, being written in God's word. But DURING those 1260 days, SOME of those days will be days of GT.

Edited August 15, 2020 by iamlamad

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

WHO SAID "IT IS NOT WRITTEN IN CRONOLOGICAL ORDER?"  Did John write that? If not, FORGET IT! If you don't like God's order, take it up with HIM! What is written in HIS ORDER.  Why is it some people imagine they know the future better than HE does?
 

It doesn't say pre trib rapture anywhere in the bible YET here it is being taught.  I believe it is false teaching.

That said,  I CAN NOT BELIEVE anything you believe.   You can keep saying these things but the Word doesn't say them

 

 This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  I understand you don't like it, but that is how God wrote it.

2  Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

That is how God tells us Christ is not coming until after.  This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  


IF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS TRUE, WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT BACKS IT UP?  a question I have asked you time and again and all you give me is your explanation.  Never, not once will you produce a simple verse that backs it up.  Piecemeal, that's what I get back. 
Mans explanations.  

[DeighAnn]

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

1 John 5:4 

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

ARE you born again? If you are, they you are ALREADY an overcomer.  Read it in another version:
4  for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Once again, a reason that pre trib rap isn't necessary FOR GODS purposes, just men scared to stand and overcome the overcomer.  

Still not answering the questions you don't want or can't.  

So OVERCOMING works for you there, but not in the end time tribulation? 

Take one freely offered, take no part in/escape the one that proves you.  Rapture Theory.

[Montana Marv]

3 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

It doesn't say pre trib rapture anywhere in the bible YET here it is being taught.  I believe it is false teaching.

That said,  I CAN NOT BELIEVE anything you believe.   You can keep saying these things but the Word doesn't say them

 

 This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  I understand you don't like it, but that is how God wrote it.

2  Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

That is how God tells us Christ is not coming until after.  This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  


IF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS TRUE, WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT BACKS IT UP?  a question I have asked you time and again and all you give me is your explanation.  Never, not once will you produce a simple verse that backs it up.  Piecemeal, that's what I get back. 
Mans explanations.  

The timing of the Bridegroom coming for the Bride is in God's hands. The Son doesn't know. The time is not in Scripture. The Word, Jesus Christ doesn't know. No support from Scripture for mid or post rapture positions either. No suggestive hints.

Some of us like the example of the ancient wedding.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


ESPECIALLY WHEN THE MESSAGE GIVEN TO THE CHURCH IS 

To him that overcometh (3528)

3528 nikao

to conquer prevail
overcome, prevail, subdue

Let's look at other uses of that word: 

Rom 12:21  Be G3528 ➔ not overcome G3528 of evil, but overcome G3528 evil with good.

1Jo 2:13  I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome G3528 the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

 1Jo 2:14  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome G3528 the wicked one.

1Jo 4:4  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome G3528 them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh G3528 the world: and this is the victory that overcometh G3528 the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5  Who is he that overcometh G3528 the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, G3528 and to conquer. G3528

Notice, these are all CHURCH AGE overcoming verses. 

When we overcome evil with good in our walk with the Lord, WE ARE OVERCOMERS.
Young men that turn to the Lord are OVERCOMERS
We are OVERCOMERS because He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world.
We are OVERCOMERS - overcoming the word -  because of OUR FAITH
We are OVERCOMERS because we believe that Jesus is the SON!
The white horse, representing the CHURCH OVERCOMES the world as the gospel is spread. 
 

I agree, the message to the church is to OVERCOME: and as these verses show, EVERY BELIEVER IS AN OVERCOMER.

 I hope you know, those 7 churches were JEWISH churches, according to tradition. ONLY PAUL was sent to the Gentiles (with the exception of Peter and Cornelius). John, according to tradition, was the head of these seven churches. It goes without saying, JEWS, for the most part, are not trusting in Jesus, since they don't believe He was their Messiah. they will be left behind. They will have to go through the 70th week. (The believing church will not - God having provided and escape.)

In summary, ALL those who are IN Christ are already overcomers: we have overcome the world by our faith. If we can overcome the Covid 19 problems and continue on in faith, LOOKING and WATCHING for His coming, we will have done all the overcoming required. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

..

Makes it pretty clear TO SOME who needs to be overcome.  We are told to overcome.   We are told someone is coming to overcome us.  


WHAT WE DO KNOW  FOR SURE AND POSITIVE
it isn't speaking of Christ, as 

He doesn't have a "bow" He has a sharp two edged sword. 
He has a crown, and has no need for one to be given Him. 
He has already overcome the world, so he does not need to go forth doing so.  

Doesn't leave any questions for me.  

BOTTOM LINE

GOD WOULD NEVER EXCUSE ANYONE FROM SOMETHING OTHERS HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES FOR.  there is nothing new under the sun.  what has been done will be done again.  

THIS IS HIS PLAN.    

IT JUST WOULDN'T BE JUST TO THEM WHO HAVE SUFFERED TO DEATH ON ACCOUNT OF TRIBULATION FOR THE WORD OF GOD for those who have not to get a free pass.  You don't take an untested gun into battle.    

GOD IS NOT A RESPECTOR OF PERSONS.   

ONE DOESN'T TAKE THE GUARANTEED WINNING GENERAL OUT OF THE WAR RIGHT BEFORE IT BEGINS

BECAUSE IT IS STUPID TO DO SO.   He SPENDs THOUSANDS OF YEARS RECRUTING, TEACHING THE RULES, ARMING FOR BATTLE AND "POOF" THE MOMENT BEFORE THE WAR begins, He SENDs THEM ALL AWAY.  IT IS SO INSANE TO ME I got nothing.  

Makes me think of

 THOSE WHO WISH TO BE TAKEN OUT OF ANY TROUBLE OR ANY TESTING OR ANYTHING UNCOMFORTABLE INSTEAD OF FIGHTING TO STAY, TO MAKE A STAND.   THOSE WHO DO NOT WISH TO BE COMPANIONS IN TRIBULATION, AND PERSECUTION, DISTRESS AND ALL THE REST.   THOSE WHO AREN'T WILLING TO STAND.  THOSE NOT WILLING TO OVERCOME.  THOSE NOT WILLING TO ENDURE TO THE END.  THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO SERVE, THOUGH THEY ARE SERVANTS.  SERVANTS THAT  WANT TO BE SERVED.  THEY WANT TO BE TAKEN CARE OF, AGAIN.  LIKE CHRIST DYING FOR THEM WASN'T ENOUGH.  THEY NEED MORE.   AFTER ALL "THEY BELIEVE" DON'T THEY.  WHAT MORE COULD GOD WANT? 
(JUST LOOK AT HOW WE ARE WARNED ABOUT WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE FOR US BEING "LEFT BEHIND".  IT ISN'T HARD TO FIGURE OUT).


Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh (3528)  shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 IF THE LORD SHOWED UP TODAY, WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN "OVERCOME" BY CHRISTIANS IN MOST OF THE WORLD TODAY?


  

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful,(1169) and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    
THESE ARE NOT MY DEFINITIONS THAT FOLLOW, THIS IS THE WORD GOD USED AND THIS IS THE MEANING OF THAT WORD.
1169  DEILOS

COWARDLY, FEARFUL, TIMID

AN ADJECTIVE DERIVED FROM DEIDO MEANING FEAR DRIVEN
DESCRIBES A PERSON WHO LOSES THEIR MORAL GUMPTION, ( FORTITUDE)) THAT IS NEEDED TO FOLLOW THE LORD  

 

TO FALL SHORT IN FOLLOWING CHRIST AS LORD

ALWAYS USED NEGATIVELY

 

BY IMPLICATION FAITHLESS

 

We are told someone is coming to overcome us.   This is ERROR. Paul used that word "us." Did you forget?

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The truth is, "US" gets raptured and get to live together with Him. If you wish to stay behind and be "overcome," just know it is YOUR CHOICE. You can escape. 

He doesn't have a "bow" He has a sharp two edged sword. 
He has a crown, and has no need for one to be given Him. 
He has already overcome the world, so he does not need to go forth doing so.   

These are speaking, not of Christ, but of the CHURCH. The church has weapons, but they are not physical.
The church (each member) will get crowns of victory, because the church WINS. This is speaking of TOTAL or FINAL victory - does not fit the Beast. the CHURCH must overcome the word. That is what you have been saying all along!

GOD WOULD NEVER EXCUSE ANYONE FROM SOMETHING OTHERS HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES FOR. The church age has always been tribulation. But the church age will END with the pretrib rapture. This age WILL come to an end. During the church age, we have been given authority over the devil and demons, or 'the world." 

But during the last 42 months of the 70th week, the BEAST will be given authority over the saints and will OVERCOME them.  (Do you have a passion to be overcome?) That is why God has made an escape plan for those that love Him. 

IT JUST WOULDN'T BE JUST TO THEM WHO HAVE SUFFERED TO DEATH ON ACCOUNT OF TRIBULATION FOR THE WORD OF GOD for those who have not to get a free pass.  Do ALL believers become martyrs? You know they don't. The truth then is that MOST believers "get a free pass:" whatever that means. 

GOD IS NOT A RESPECTOR OF PERSONS.    But He is CERTAINLY a respector of His children, those who are IN CHRIST.

ONE DOESN'T TAKE THE GUARANTEED WINNING GENERAL OUT OF THE WAR RIGHT BEFORE IT BEGINS God WILL  take HIS OWN out of the war, for the war is NOT WITH THEM; it will be for those who reject Him. (God is not angry with His church!) WRATH will be for those left behind, NOT FOR HIS OWN. 

BECAUSE IT IS STUPID TO DO SO.   So God is stupid? Really?  keep in mind, our big difference is only WHEN the rapture happens. I think it happens before WRATH, you think it happens before WAR. Your argument fails. (war = Armageddon)

He SPENDs THOUSANDS OF YEARS RECRUTING, TEACHING THE RULES, ARMING FOR BATTLE AND "POOF" THE MOMENT BEFORE THE WAR begins, He SENDs THEM ALL AWAY.  IT IS SO INSANE TO ME I got nothing.   That is because you have in error placed YOURSELF in this war, when God has the war place for those that hate Him! (if by war you mean the 70th week.) Will a farmer who has planted, weeded, waters, then leave the harvest in the field to be destroyed by weather? NO! When it is harvest time, the farmer HARVESTS. Do you not understand that the rapture is HARVEST? In fact, the entire 70th week is also harvest time. WEEDS (tares) get burned, but the "wheat" gets harvested. 

Do you really think God needs HELP from humans  with the 7 trumpet judgments, and the 7 vials? You amaze me.

IF THE LORD SHOWED UP TODAY, WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN "OVERCOME" BY CHRISTIANS IN MOST OF THE WORLD TODAY? EVERY believer would have overcome. I showed you verse after verse. 

THAT IS NEEDED TO FOLLOW THE LORD    Everyone already born again is ALREADY an overcomer. GOd has not need or desire to punish us in His wrath. We have already overcome the world!  You really have strange theories! 

TO FALL SHORT IN FOLLOWING CHRIST AS LORD  You seem to be of the opinion that being raptured is done by the fearful to run from the devil! How funny! How much in ERROR! It will be GOD start to finish at the rapture, and the purpose will be to pull HIS PEOPLE out before His wrath. Note carefully, GOD IS NOT ANGRY WITH US.

Look, if you DESIRE to be left behind and see what living through God's wrath will be like, I think God will give people what they are believing Him for. You will be left behind. And you will be OVERCOME. That is scripture. 

Some people seem to think that when God said the saints will be OVERCOME, it was not written for THEM, but rather for OTHERS. I think all or the vast majority of believers who will suffer through those days of GT will be overcome. They will be CAUGHT and offered the MARK to save their head. This is scripture. 

The truth is, God has made an escape route, or DETOUR, a way around living through His wrath. We call this escape the RAPTURE. it is for all who can believe. For those that can't believe in the rapture, they will get what THEY have faith for: living through the 70th week and being overcome. It is really quite simple: BELIEVE in the pretrib rapture, and ESCAPE what is coming. DOUBT in the pretrib rapture, and get left behind. 

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Once again, a reason that pre trib rap isn't necessary FOR GODS purposes, just men scared to stand and overcome the overcomer.  

Still not answering the questions you don't want or can't.  

So OVERCOMING works for you there, but not in the end time tribulation? 

Take one freely offered, take no part in/escape the one that proves you.  Rapture Theory.

I won't BE HERE for the end time tribulation. You don't HAVE To be there either. It takes FAITH to believe what is written: God will come BEFORE wrath to pull His children out. Why not just believe what is written? Do you WANT to live in His wrath? (sea turned to blood; fresh water turned to blood - so no water to drink. Stinging locusts; HEAT from the sun that burns, TOTAL DARKNESS, to name just a few things. Do you WANT to live through these times? WHY, when God has made a way of escape?
 

You are mistaken: RAPTURE theory comes from GOD. You are free to doubt Him, but it is wise?

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

It doesn't say pre trib rapture anywhere in the bible YET here it is being taught.  I believe it is false teaching.

That said,  I CAN NOT BELIEVE anything you believe.   You can keep saying these things but the Word doesn't say them

 This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  I understand you don't like it, but that is how God wrote it.

2  Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

That is how God tells us Christ is not coming until after.  This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  


IF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS TRUE, WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT BACKS IT UP?  a question I have asked you time and again and all you give me is your explanation.  Never, not once will you produce a simple verse that backs it up.  Piecemeal, that's what I get back. 
Mans explanations.  

It doesn't say pre trib rapture anywhere in the bible YET here it is being taught.  WHY do you keep saying that? Could it be you don't know where "the trib" is? Or perhaps you don't know where the rapture is?

To REALLY KNOW pre-post-mid etc, one MUST KNOW where the TRIB is and where the rapture is. I can assure you, most don't know. Then cannot point to "THE TRIB" in John's narrative, or the rapture either. I am convinced YOU don't know. But go ahead, prove me wrong:

SHOW US where "the trib" is in revelation, then where the rapture is. 

You can keep saying these things but the Word doesn't say them I keep quoting the word. You are not the only one that copies and pastes scripture.  Once again, PLEASE, since you are so sure of yourself, SHOW US "THE TRIB" in Revelation. 

This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.   Once again, PAUL DID NOT WRITE "Chapter 5." Why stop reading in chapter 4 when Paul gives TIMING in chapter 5?

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
That is how God tells us Christ is not coming until after.  This is the timing we are given for 1 thess 4.  
Dear Sister, this is speaking of the coming of the MAN IF SIN, not Christ's coming! Oh my! You amaze me!  I know Peter said Paul's letters are difficult to understand. You should perhaps read the commentaries on Paul. They can certainly help. 

Until then, allow me to help. whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

This is describing how the man of sin will turn Beast and by and through the power of Satan will deceive the world with lying wonders. This has NOTHING to do with Christ's coming. If you believed John in Revelation, you would know this great deception will be in the last half of the week, from Revelation chapter 13 (when the false prophet shows up) to Rev. chapter 16. Christ's coming for Armageddon is then AFTER the week ends in chapter 16. 

However, we are not talking of that coming: we are talking of his RAPTURE coming, as shown in 1 thes. Paul is clear (when you understand him): the rapture will come JUST BEFORE WRATH. Now, sister, can you show us where WRATH begins in Revelation?

IF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS TRUE, WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT BACKS IT UP?  a question I have asked you time and again and all you give me is your explanation.  TIME AND TIME AGAIN I point you to 1 thes 5 where Paul gives TIMING information. It is up to YOU to study chapter 5 and learn what Paul is teaching. 

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [get raptured] by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [This is by way of rapture]

Do you want to set your OWN appointment? Well, DO YOU? Do you show up at the doctor's office WITHOUT an appointment? You would be turned away. God is not setting any appointments for YOU with His wrath. That means DON'T SHOW UP! What it really means is, God's plan is to PULL YOU OUT before His wrath. The appointments are for those left behind. Of course you can deny this is what Paul means. That is up to you. 

Again I point out, just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse, 4:16-17, Paul mentions "the Day of the Lord" just as if THE DAY and the RAPTURE are connected in some way. Have you ever asked GOD about that? If not, WHY not?

Since we KNOW from other scriptures that the day of the Lord WILL BE a day of WRATH, and Paul then talks about wrath, it should be clear that WRATH follows RAPTURE. That is Paul's point. The truth is, His coming (as a thief) will be the trigger for the rapture (NO coming - no rapture). Then the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord and His wrath. (Wrath cannot come before the rapture.) In other words, there will be NO TIME between the rapture and the Day of the Lord. 

Read it again: God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation...

It is your choice: set your own appointment and suffer His wrath, OR get raptured and live together with Him. Which will you choose? Make no mistake here, it will be your choice: you can believe in the rapture or you can deny it, get left behind, and suffer His wrath.  Notice, the rapture is AT THE TIME OF WRATH.

Have you ever studied Revelation to find out WHEN WRATH begins? Perhaps you should before you get on a public forum and try to teach.

Never, not once will you produce a simple verse that backs it up.   Did it every occur to you that GOD DID NOT GIVE US A SIMPLE VERSE showing the time of Paul's rapture! He wants us to STUDY. I suggest you study 1 thes. 5 and learn that the rapture comes just before wrath.  I suggest you study 2 thes. 2 and figure out HOW the man of sin is revealed in verse 3. 

Next, PLEASE, show us all how YOU are going to get the the marriage. DETAIL it! 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

This does not even make sense!

a "pre trib time?" What are you saying? Are you saying there is nothing "pretrib" in 1 thes.?

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING.  WORD FOR WORD.  LET ME SAY IT IN MY OWN WORDS

`1 THESS 4 GIVES ABSOLUTELY NO HINT OR INDICATION THAT IT HAPPENS PRE TRIB.  AND TO PROVE IT,  2 THESS STATES IT 3 TIMES BACK TO BACK.  

CHRIST DOESN'T RETURN, WE ARE NOT GATHERED, NO ONE ALIVE AND REMAINING IS CHANGED,  

UNTIL AFTER SATAN IS HERE.  PERIOD.
 
ALL THE REST IS A LIE/DECEPTION/FALSE DOCTRINE/WHITEWASHED WALL/HUNTING SOULS TO FLY

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN ALL THE INSTRUCTIONS  AKA GOSPEL ARMOR NEEDED  AKA I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS AKA POWER OVER OUR ENEMIES TO OVERCOME AKA ENDURE TO THE END 

ALL THAT IS NEEDED TO  FOLLOW THE COMMAND OF JESUS GIVES  "DO NOT BE DECEIVED".  IST HORSE RIDER IS SATANS EVIL SPIRIT COMING TO DECEIVE THE WHOLE WORLD.  JESUS FIRST COMMAND DO NOT BE DECEIVED.  

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE GOSPEL ARMOR TO WITHSTAND THE FIERY DARTS OF SATAN.  WHY GIVE THOSE IF NOT GOING TO BE HERE?  IT MAKES NO SENSE.  THAT'S LIKE GIVING A WEDDING DRESS TO SOMEONE NOT GOING TO GET MARRIED.  WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?  THERE IS NONE.

WHY DO WE NEED LAMPS WITH OIL?  WHY DO WE NEED LIGHT?  CAUSE ITS GOING TO GET DARK.  WE DON'T NEED LAMPS FOR JESUS TO FIND US.  THE OIL IS WHAT GETS US THROUGH.  

IF NOTHING IN THE PROGRAM MAKES ANY SENSE EXCEPT IT SOOTHES THOSE WHO ARE SCARED/FEARFUL, IT IS NOT OF GOD.  

GOD TESTS US.  RAPTURE DOESN'T.   GOD DOESN'T LIKE COWARDS, RAPTURE TELLS THEM THEY WONT HAVE TO BE.  GOD IS SENDING WITNESSES HERE.  RAPTURE IS TAKING WITNESSES AWAY.

NOT ONLY DOES THAT THEORY GO AGAINST GOD IN EVERY WAY THAT HE WORKS,
IT ALLOWS THOSE WHO DO PUT IT FORTH TO TRY AND SCARE EVERYONE INTO THINKING THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME HORRIBLE PHYSICAL WAR THAT IS TO BE FEARED
FURTHER BLINDING THEM TO THE FACT THAT IT THE 1/3 DYING ARE DYING SPIRITUAL DEATHS. 
IT IS A WAR OF POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES. 
IT ISSUES OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS. 

WHAT IS HEARD BEFORE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION  "PEACE AND SAFETY".  DOESN'T SOUND LIKE DEATH AND MAYHEM. 


WHAT ELSE HAPPENS? SIGNS AND WONDERS AND THE WORLD WORSHIPPING HIM.  IT LOOKS AND FEELS SO GOOD HOW CAN IT BE ANYTHING  OTHER THAN CHRIST RETURNED?  DECEPTION SO GOOD THAT EVEN GODS ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED.  

ALL THAT MADE IMPOSSIBLE BY A WORLD SUDDENLY PLUNGED INTO TOTAL CHAOS FROM BILLIONS OF SOULS LEAVING. 

WHO WOULD BE DECEIVED AFTER THAT?  WHAT A TERRIBLE PLAN.  DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD PLAN TO YOU?  LOOK AT THIS VIRUS RUNNING ROUND TODAY AND HOW MUCH IT HAS CHANGED EVERY THING.   HOW LONG IT IS TAKING TO MOVE ABOUT IT.  AFTER 1/3 OF THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD GONE,  IT WOULD TAKE MORE TIME TO GET BACK TO RUNNING THEN SATAN HAS TIME HERE. 
THINK OF EVERY SYSTEM IN THE WORLD GOING DOWN, DEAD CARCASES,  EVERYWHERE, PEOPLE IN MORNING...


ITS ALL BAIT AND SWITCH.  IF THEY CAN GET YOU TO BELIEVE ONE LIE, THEY CAN GET YOU TO BELIEVE ALL LIES.  THERE IS ONLY ONE HOPE. THROUGH CHRIST JESUS.  AND WHO IS CHRIST JESUS?  THE WORD.  THE "IT IS WRITTEN",  THE GOSPEL ARMOR.  THE KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM OF GOD.  TRULY THE ONLY HOPE.

I HAVE FAITH THAT NO MATTER WHAT, GOD HAS GOT ME.  I AM NOT TO FEAR ANY OF THESE THINGS.  THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN FOR ME IS TO LOSE MY SOUL BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE WHAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO SEE.  WHAT I WAS STUDYING TO SEE.  WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS ME TO SEE. 

THE BEST OUTCOME FOR ME IS TO END THIS LIFE BY STANDING UP FOR THE WORD OF GOD.  THE ULTIMATE GOAL, SO TO SPEAK.  


NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COULD BE BETTER  THAN THAT.  IT IS WHAT I HOPE AND PRAY FOR.  IT IS WHO I WANT TO BE IN MY LAST BREATH IN THE FLESH.  

AND IF THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN I STAND BEFORE GOD, IT WAS HIS LOVE, HIS TRUTH, AND HIS PLAN THAT LEAD ME.  THAT IS HOW MUCH I LOVE GOD.  AND HATE SATAN.  

THERE WILL NOT BE A FEAR OF SATAN TESTING MY LOVE AND DEVOTION TO HIM .  

I HAVE COMPLETE FAITH IN THE PROMISES OF GOD.  HE SAYS HIS WRATH FALLS ON THEM, I HAVE NOT A NANOSECOND OF FEAR THAT HIS WRATH WILL FALL ON ME.   HIS WRATH ISN'T TOWARDS THOSE WHO LOVE AND OBEY HIM.  I CAN BE STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIERY FURNACE HEATED 7 TIMES HOTTER THAN NECESSARY AND NOT A HAIR ON MY HEAD WILL BE SINGED.  I HAVE NO FEAR, I HAVE NO RAPTURE THEORY.  

  

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

BEST HOPE THAT OVERCOME BEING COUNTING ON,  IS THE OVERCOME HE MEANS.