enoob57 Posted August 19, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,192 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 19, 2020 We disagree on theology here because God says 1 John 1:8-10 (KJV) [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I look at Pauls life witness he never attained but only in Christ’s life was perfection found... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted August 19, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 2 hours ago, enoob57 said: We disagree on theology here because God says 1 John 1:8-10 (KJV) [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I look at Pauls life witness he never attained but only in Christ’s life was perfection found... That verse is often misread. In the verse previous, John says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. Now if we say we have no need because we do have no sins needing forgiveness, we deceive ourselves. How do we know this is the case? All we have to do is read into chapter two. "Little children, these things I write unto you that you sin not." So, if we actually obey him, we are then deceived?? I could accept using Romans 7 and 1 John 1:9 as scriptural reasons not to attain a full walk as an overcomer...... if a man were found pressing in with all of his heart. But how many know nothing of the struggle that Paul had with his old nature. He wanted desperately to be freed from the power of sin, rooted in his old nature. He cried out as a wretched man, imprisoned by a self nature that could not obey. And he did so till the deliverer came and delivered him! But for men to try to use these verses as somehow validating the sin in their lives when their heart are anything but like Paul's heart, is simply them fooling themselves. God sees through us and our 'scriptural defenses' and knows full well the true intent of our heart. He knows whether or not we truly are hungering and thirsting for righteousness, or if we are simply resting content with forgiveness with little if any desire to be sanctified wholly, body, soul and spirit. If we do not get brutally honest with ourselves, things are going to go sideways. Any hope for us to be used by God has got to start with truth being acknowledged, even if it is painful to do so. blessings, Gids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted August 19, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 2 hours ago, enoob57 said: We disagree on theology here because God says 1 John 1:8-10 (KJV) [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I look at Pauls life witness he never attained but only in Christ’s life was perfection found... Again, I am in no way espousing perfection. Being freed from the grip of the enemy, however, is the beginning of our sanctification, not the end goal. We do not attain to the fullness of the likeness of Christ in this life, even as Paul stated. But again, he strove for it according to God's strivings IN him. He gave ALL diligence. He presented his body a living sacrifice, and told us rhis was a mindset not for apostles alone but for ALL, and was "our reasonable service". For us to use his statement as our excuse for living as we do, when our mindset is not the one he possessed, we are fooling no one but ourselves. God sees. It is time we did as well. The first step in our awakening is to admit our state and our contentment without godliness. It is the hardest step of all, but once it is done, God then can and WILL move mountains to see us established as overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. blessings, Gideon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted August 19, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,142 Content Per Day: 7.07 Reputation: 13,099 Days Won: 97 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2020 When a man believes that he's without sin what does this say? "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) Furthermore, there is sin which does not lead to death. "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17) It's evident that the apostle refers to sin in two different ways and so this knowledge should guide our understanding as we read his letters. God is merciful, swift to forgive trespass (Jonah 2:2) so the notion that one must be without spot or blemish, perfect as only the Lord Himself is perfect, in order to be loved and used by God is the product of our own understanding. This isn't to say that we shouldn't strive to be like Christ but it's only necessary to point that out because of the hardness evidenced by some who find reason to argue about anything and everything. There's no double-mindedness nor shadow of turning in the Lord but the same can't be said of men. We see darkly and know only in part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted August 19, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Gideon said: Again, I am in no way espousing perfection. Being freed from the grip of the enemy, however, is the beginning of our sanctification, not the end goal. We do not attain to the fullness of the likeness of Christ in this life, even as Paul stated. But again, he strove for it according to God's strivings IN him. He gave ALL diligence. He presented his body a living sacrifice, and told us rhis was a mindset not for apostles alone but for ALL, and was "our reasonable service". For us to use his statement as our excuse for living as we do, when our mindset is not the one he possessed, we are fooling no one but ourselves. God sees. It is time we did as well. The first step in our awakening is to admit our state and our contentment without godliness. It is the hardest step of all, but once it is done, God then can and WILL move mountains to see us established as overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. blessings, Gideon It's the tares who are content without godliness, not those who have been born again. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted August 19, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 34 minutes ago, David1701 said: It's the tares who are content without godliness, not those who have been born again. And if this is true, it should send a streak of fear in the hearts of many, shouldn't it? However, if it were true, holiness would be taught from the pulpits of our churches, wouldn't they? Older Saints would stand as shining examples of what God can do to a fully yielded heart. They would testify in purity and humility that the promises of God are sure, no matter our weakness, to the younger saints so that they too could follow in their footsteps walking as living sacrifices, wholly and acceptable unto God. But this is not what we find, is it? Your statement is used by many as an excuse to take the spotlight off their own lack of holiness as well as their total absence of desire for walking in victory over the sins they yield themselves to. Sin IS in the church, committed by real children of God. Unbelief, worldliness, sexual lusts, greed, lack of agape love,self rule....these run rampant in our midst. Why is it so hard to get believers to acknowledge this? Simple. Because if this is true, something is wrong. Change must happen. Repentance must occur. God IS going to get the attention of His children, one way or another. The coming shakings will do it for us if we will not do it willingly. He loves us far too much than to let us miss what He has for us, even if we do not yet see our great need for it. blessings, Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted August 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, Gideon said: And if this is true, it should send a streak of fear in the hearts of many, shouldn't it? It should; but tares are not known for their reverent fear of God. Quote However, if it were true, holiness would be taught from the pulpits of our churches, wouldn't they? It's taught at least from some of them. I haven't been to all of them (have you?), so I can't comment on that. Quote Older Saints would stand as shining examples of what God can do to a fully yielded heart. They would testify in purity and humility that the promises of God are sure, no matter our weakness, to the younger saints so that they too could follow in their footsteps walking as living sacrifices, wholly and acceptable unto God. Some are shining examples. Quote But this is not what we find, is it? Your statement is used by many as an excuse to take the spotlight off their own lack of holiness as well as their total absence of desire for walking in victory over the sins they yield themselves to. Sin IS in the church, committed by real children of God. Unbelief, worldliness, sexual lusts, greed, lack of agape love,self rule....these run rampant in our midst. The reason is that there are many tares amongst the wheat. Quote Why is it so hard to get believers to acknowledge this? Simple. Because if this is true, something is wrong. Change must happen. Repentance must occur. Those who have been born again do repent. Quote God IS going to get the attention of His children, one way or another. The coming shakings will do it for us if we will not do it willingly. He loves us far too much than to let us miss what He has for us, even if we do not yet see our great need for it. blessings, Gideon God has got the attention of his children. Edited August 20, 2020 by David1701 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted August 28, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted August 28, 2020 (edited) On 8/19/2020 at 7:54 PM, Walter Goraj jr said: I read your post and I understand where you're coming from. All I'm trying to say from the beginning is this: There are people whom God has chosen to eternal life before the world began. They were part of churches such as the one in Laodicea and perhaps part of some congregations even to this day. When Christ comes to purify the heavens and the earth with fire, the physical church, with the tares and their false teachings ( such as free will, which makes man the captain of their salvation instead of God), will be burned up and remembered no more. Only the eternal church will be left to bring praise, honour and glory to the Lamb of God. The seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3 are a picture of all of God's chosen ( him that overcometh) who will come out of the earthly, carnal congregations and are ready to be with Christ into eternity. I read the Bible and have lived many years upon the earth. I've encountered many people who've made a decision to accept Christ into their lives and many who have refused. Such things cannot be easily explained. According to the parables of Christ the thing is purely by chance. The Kingdom of God thrives among those who receive His word with gladness deep in their hearts. It's a choice and a spiritual roll of the dice. The parables of Christ seem to point to this conclusion. It's very easy to claim religious exceptionalism and declare that only a particular group of people will be saved - the ones who belong to our approved list, to OUR group, as it were. Such an attitude is born of base human prejudice and does not reflect spiritual reality. For instance, post-protestant types generally adhere to bigoted anti-semitic attitudes against Jews. In their minds, it's impossible for a Jew to be saved unless he or she becomes a church member. Which church is right? Well, it would depend upon your prejudice wouldn't it? If you're a Catholic, then everybody else is automatically consigned to perdition. If you're a protestant, then you believe you are on the approved list. Not just any protestant church, either. It has to be an approved protestant church. Approved by who? Approved by spiritual bigots - exceptionalists who think their club is the only one worth considering. The Holy Spirit does not vindicate any nation or religious organization. It vindicates the Kingdom of God. That's it and that's all. Who are the chosen? There's only one group of people the Bible says are chosen - JEWS. JEWS are God's chosen people. They are the oracle through whom the wisdom and salvation of God have been delivered to all the world. (Genesis 12:3) Anti-semitic attitudes of the institutional religion known as Christianity generally submit Jews to the fires of the holocaust, of racist hatred and of social ostracism. Good Christians do not accept that being saved makes one a Jew, not a Christian. (see the book of Hebrews) Christians have become spiritual demagogues and exclude anyone who doesn't make the same noises they do. As a case in point, consider the New Testament. EVERY instance of the assembly of believers in Christ met in a synagogue. The Bible was written by JEWS about JEWS and for JEWS. Accounts in the gospels and the book of Acts suggest that God also opened the way for salvation to gentiles. That didn't make them lords over JEWS or anyone else who came to Christ, but that is in fact the attitude we read and hear expressed today. Christian exclusivism is a spiritual disease that has no value in the Kingdom of God at all. To that end the Bible has been and will continue to be interpreted to put a corrupt religious church on a pedestal it has neither earned nor deserved. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited August 28, 2020 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted August 29, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted August 29, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said: "According to the parables of Christ the thing is purely by chance. The Kingdom of God thrives among those who receive His word with gladness deep in their hearts. It's a choice and a spiritual roll of the dice. The parables of Christ seem to point to this conclusion." God does nothing by chance. You will never ever find any information in the Bible that supports that. He is all-knowing and Almighty and He knew His people before this world ever began. One of the first lines John Calvin penned was the statement, "there is no such thing as coincidence." Calvin was also an anti-semite - a JEW hater who assumed falsely that Jews could not and would not inherit the Kingdom of God. Only Calvin's people would inherit God's favor - a very bigoted and illogical attitude if ever there was one. The Bible doesn't lie, but liars can use the Bible to justify their hateful racism. For the reader's information, the Protestant Reformation gave birth to many theologians like Calvin. Jacobus Arminius, who asserted free will, was also one of them. Google Arminius for some very interesting information. Today the post-protestant church has abandoned the precepts of the Reformation and marches in lock step with the Vatican. All this talk about predestination and free will is purely academic because the focus of the post-protestant church today is about membership, not spiritual rebirth/renewal. Ask yourself this question, dear reader. If you were to stop attending your local church would you not be considered to be backslid? What of your true spiritual condition, does anyone care about that or do they care about your donation$ instead? Several dogmas accepted by Calvinists, as well as the Catholic church, include the total depravity of man - or original SIN as some call it; Total Depravity of Man - The essence of the argument is that man cannot perform righteousness at all. BUT SINCE, the Bible records that God has commanded man to obey and live by His laws, therefore man is able to do so. The Calvinist argument of predestination is self-defeating with regard to logic. It is a blatant misinterpretation of scripture to put themselves in a situation the Bible does not intend. AGAIN, the ONLY people the Bible says are chosen of God are the JEWS. Calvinists hate the thought - deeply. Gentiles are invited to share in God's grace, which is the essence of the gospel - good news. "If man is purely evil and cannot repent, then he cannot possibly obey God's command to repent." - Ben Perry "The Lord your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul." - Deut 26:16 "So be strong, act like a man, and observe what the Lord your God requires: Walk in obedience to him, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and regulations, as written in the Law of Moses. Do this so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go" - 1 Kings 2:2-3 Calvinists will argue that even Jews had no choice in the matter, an argument definitely defeated by Biblical reference. Evidence of free will - "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Jos 24:15 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." - Deu 30:19 The Kingdom of God will not stand or fall depending upon what you or I decide with regard to God's gift of immortal life. It is us who will benefit or suffer loss, not God and certainly not God's agenda. Calvinists suggest God is the author of depravity, not satan. If God has made it impossible for man to choose, then how can God hold man accountable for the SIN of man? The answer is that God cannot do so. The Bible says God is just. Therefore man is held accountable for man's choice. If God weeps at the loss of a single soul, as He did on the day Lazarus died, then God is not the author of rebellion and SIN. Let's not accuse God of the SINs of man, but place the responsibility squarely upon the shoulders of he who SINs. It is time to repent and be saved. One cannot do that if there is no choice. Redemption is offered to those who will accept it TO THE JEW FIRST and then the goyim (gentile). If the Bible suggests anyone or any group is chosen, it is the JEW. Calvin refused to accept that Biblical truth. So too do those who believe church membership is paramount in their spiritual journey. It is a fatally wrong assumption, if not darkly racist in intent. Shame on those who support that filthy disgusting hateful attitude. The Holy Spirit does not vindicate theologians or those who follow them. The Holy Spirit always vindicates the Kingdom of God. Those who believe that their particular church membership is chosen are fanatically mistaken as well as unabashed racists. It is time to repent regardless of one's affiliations or ancestors. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited August 29, 2020 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted August 29, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 29, 2020 (edited) On 8/20/2020 at 1:36 PM, David1701 said: It should; but tares are not known for their reverent fear of God. It's taught at least from some of them. I haven't been to all of them (have you?), so I can't comment on that. Some are shining examples. The reason is that there are many tares amongst the wheat. Those who have been born again do repent. God has got the attention of his children. When the vast majority of Christians are living out their lives in captivity to their old nature, imprisoned in Romans 7 so deeply that they think anything promised more than that is either embellishment or impossible, they are left living their lives in the wilderness of unbelief, robbed of any hope of ever walking in the land of promise. Paul once lived in Romans 7.... and HATED it. And that is the purpose of the Romans 7 experience, where obedience is fleeting at best, where fellowship with God is always interrupted by sin and self desires. It is to finally bring us to hate OUR life, OUR weakness, OUR pride, and OUR contentment with less than the life God has purchased for us.... total victory over the world, the flesh and the devil. O, that we might awake to the promises of our Father to set us free from our old weak, rebellious natures. Yes, we still have fleshly bodies which have a propensity to sin, but.... BUT..... we do not have fleshly carnal spirits anymore that steer those bodies. We have been given brand new natures, natures that can steer those bodies.... every time. New natures that can bring every thought into subject to Christ, can fellowship with God non-stop all day.... every day. We are told to keep our bodies under because we CAN. Where is it then, if this be the case, that we have erred and gone off track? What is the fly in our sweet smelling ointment that keeps us from enjoying the FREE INDEED God has purchased for us? it is simply this. We do not hate our old life. Yet. All that is about to change. And what happens when our hunger for godliness overrides our contentment without it? What happens when His children cry out to our Heavenly Father to save us from our sins.... not in them? It is at that magic moment that God takes the blinders from our eyes and breathes on our hard, dried, shriveled up faith, melting away the unbelief that has come from years of sin hardening our hearts. How will God bring about this change in our heart's desires? One of the ways is through shakings. The coming shakings are not meant to hurt us, but rather to drive us to our knees, crying out as Paul did to free us from our wretched, contented 'I have need of nothing' Christianity. They are to being us to the place where all that is not of Christ is shaken out of us. Do not fear, dear saints. God has our best in mind, even if at present, we are found content without it. Our tears, our fears, our loneliness are soon to replaced with shouts of joy, as we have our feet planted on the highway of holiness, where we are kept from falling by God Himself. Do not lament your weakness. It is your awareness of that weakness that qualifies you perfectly to walk as an overcomer, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. It is to those who have NO strength that He increases might. Look aware from your weaknesses and the sins from which you cannot escape, and look UP. Cry out for Jesus to do what He promised to do for you.deliver you from evil, just as Paul did in Romans 7. To all who do so, they will find to their amazement and delight that the promises of God are real, and sure and mighty. We, dear brothers and sisters, ARE new creatures.... right now, this very minute. What has hindered us is simply unbelief doubting that God can and will deliver us from our fallen nature. Cast off that doubt, as a filthy rag, and despite what you might see, what you might feel, what your logic tells you is possible, come into agreement with your God! He tells us that we are dead and our life is hid with Christ. Agree with Him! Yield yourself to Him, but not as a wretched sinner unable to overcome. Yield yourself to Him as one who is alive from the dead, as one who an do all things through Christ who strengthens us. To your amazement, Christ WILL solidify the churning waters beneath your feet, as you walk on the waters to Him as an overcomer, not as the overcome. blessings, Gideon Edited August 29, 2020 by Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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