JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[abcdef]

On 8/16/2020 at 5:55 PM, Montana Marv said:

So Daniels people have been in millennial bliss for the past 2,000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes they have.

The new covenant at the day of Pentecost was the beginning of the millennium period.

The mill period continues to this day.

Oh, you were expecting the Garden of Eden on planet earth?

Have you been listening to the Jehovah's witnesses?

[iamlamad]

On 8/19/2020 at 6:40 AM, abcdef said:

The 5th trumpet locusts (and 6th trumpet) are describing the spiritual attributes of people.

These people hate Israel and the kingdom.

The descriptions show the attitudes and methods of these people to destroy Israel.

The symbols are spiritual and compare to the armour of God in Eph 6:11-17.

1929 is the year when the 5th trumpet sounded.

Rome and Caesar returned to sit on the seat of the beast in Rome.

After that, the people of Israel were driven out of the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem. 1967

¹And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

² And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

³ And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

⁴ And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

⁵ And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

⁶ And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them

I can't imagine how you imagine what you do from this passage.  First off, they are LOCUSTS, not people. Second, they come out of the bottomless pit - hell. They have a sting like a scorpion. They are told to sting all people that are not sealed (all but the 144,000). Their sting is so powerful, people want to die - probably try to kill themselves - but God will not allow death. It is the first WOE. God has designed it to be a WOE. 

This makes good sense in its literal sense, so there is no reason to symbolize it. People that symbolize Revelation can make it say anything. 

The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe - kills 1/3 of earth's population. Again, it makes good sense. it is an ANGELIC army that kills.  God has said that the Day of the Lord would be destruction on the world, and killing the sinners in the world. Here at the 6th trumpet, He is fulfilling the second part of that.

I am sorry, but I call what you wrote, MYTH. It is pure human imagination with no scripture to back it up.  

Edited August 21, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Yes they have.

The new covenant at the day of Pentecost was the beginning of the millennium period.

The mill period continues to this day.

Oh, you were expecting the Garden of Eden on planet earth?

Have you been listening to the Jehovah's witnesses?

Really strange God did not know that the 1000 years ended nearly a thousand years ago!  abcdef, you amaze me. 

The truth is, the 1000 years is ahead of us. John in Revelation HAS chronology, but you ignore it. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by iamlamad

[Justin Adams]

Someone has said: 'If you come across someone who has the end times all figured out'.   Well. It is said you can safely ignore them.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Here's the problem.

You are making the symbols, literal, instead of seeing what the symbols represent.

 For example, Rev 6:14, where it says that heaven departs as a scroll. It's not saying that the sky/universe/atmosphere leaves the planet.

It is saying that that protection of the covenant is removed.

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All the events of the seals and 6 trumpets are past.

The seals on the scroll were all broken when Jesus revealed what the scroll said in 85 -96 AD ish.

What the scroll says could not be revealed until all the seals were broken, so since we have known what the scroll says, since 96 AD, the seals MUST have been opened by then.

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The events shown by the seals/trumpets all happen to the unbelieving broken branches from 37 AD until 1967.

The 6th seal is the day of the Lord, yes, but it is the 67-70 AD, day of the Lord, not the final Rev 20 fire, day of the Lord.

You set the 33 AD time by saying that the person on the first seal white horse was Jesus and the gospel message.

But then instead of seeing that the 6th seal is the 70 AD destruction, you want to skip 1900 years into the future and leave a 1900 year gap. (There is no gap)

The martyrs of the 5th seal are OT saints, John the Baptist for example.

Then the trumpets show the time after 70 AD. They show the continuation of God's withdrawal of blessings on the broken branches until they are restored to Jerusalem.

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The 7th trumpet will blow when Jerusalem falls. Soon, possibly months, or maybe a few years.

 

I would rather say, you are symbolizing things God never meant to be symbols. When it comes to a beast with 7 heads, yes, a symbol. When things make sense as taken literally, such as locusts, or the killing of 1/3 of the population, they are meant to be taken literally. Anyone can make Revelation say almost anything if they symbolize the book. In fact, people have: but if we take 100 people who symbolize, we end up with 100 different theories, for who is to say what a symbol means? 

 For example, Rev 6:14, where it says that heaven departs as a scroll. It's not saying that the sky/universe/atmosphere leaves the planet.

It is saying that that protection of the covenant is removed.  I don't think anyone knows what this really means. Peter wrote "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise." What you have done is GUESS it has some symbolic meaning and then guessed at that meaning. Again, 100 people who guess will end up with 100 different ideas. Sorry, I don't think this is the intent of the Author. Jesus EXPECTED the Jews to know the season on God's timing.  I think all we can know is that SOMETHING disappears. But stars remain. They are mentioned later. We can be sure the universe does not disappear. 

All the events of the seals and 6 trumpets are past.  This is a theory; I have a different theory. I take things literally and can know that NO trumpet has sounded. As I read Revelation, no trumpet CAN sound until the 7th and final seal is opened so that the BOOK can be opened. [the trumpets (at a minimum) are written inside the book.] I also know that the 7th seal can't be opened until the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord has been opened. I can know for sure that has not happened because JEsus coming FOR His bride, will happen as the trigger for the DAY - and my friend, the church is STILL HERE. All these events will happen AFTER Paul's rapture. I would say there might be one or two people in the entire world that would agree with you. The vast majority would not. just saying....

The seals on the scroll were all broken when Jesus revealed what the scroll said in 85 -96 AD ish.  Yes, IN THE VISION. You have failed to recognize what was literal and what was vision. In a vision, God can show past, present, or future, or all of them - or even all of them mixed up. We must determine the time (whether past or future) by the TEXT: and common sense. ANYONE, for example, should know that 1/3 of the seas have not turned to blood. Again, anyone should know that 1/3 of earth's population has not be killed in s short period of time. 

it is useless to continue: anyone that symbolized even literal things is probably not looking for truth. I hope your theories work out well for you. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The events of the 2 witnesses (2W's) and the 7th trumpet prove my point.

They are the same timeline with the common denominator being the beast nation that comes out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet and then kills the 2W's.

Understand that the 2W's  are the people of Israel restored to Jerusalem. (1967) The 7 trumpets center on the same chronology.

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Both time lines end at an event with shared descriptions.

The 2W's end with the resur/rapt of the people of Israel after they are restored to Jerusalem.

The 7th trumpet shows Jesus coming for the kingdom at the last trumpet resur/rapt.

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The fact that the 3 1/2 day time period is shown by the 2W's timeline, means that the event is shared with the 7th trumpet.

The resur/rapt shown by the 2W's is plain to see.

The 7th/last trumpet resur/rapt is shown in Rev 11:15-19, as Jesus coming to take possession of the kingdom (v 15), judgment (v 18), and the revealing of Jesus. seen as the ark in heaven (v 19). After the 7th trumpet blows the mystery of God is finished, Rev 10:7.

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What you MISS: There is an unseen, unwritten parenthesis in Rev. 11 that changes everything.

John's chronology:

11:1-2  The man of sin moves to Jerusalem. After all, he must BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple there. He comes with Gentile armies that will trample the city for 42 Months. this verse proves John is at the midpoint or VERY CLOSE to it, as this 42 months is a countdown from the midpoint to the end of the week. 

11:3, the Two witnesses show up, exactly 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and cause the abomination  that will divide the week. 

11:3 - 11:13 are written as a parenthesis outside of John's chronology.

11:14-15  the 7th trumpet sounds AS the man of sin enters the temple and divides the week. A property exchange takes place in heaven
12:6 those in Judea that are wise FLEES since they saw the abomination.
12:7  War in heaven. Satan is kicked off his throne as god of this world, so loses his wings: he is kicked out of the heavenly realms. 
13:1  John sees the man of sin turned Beast rising

Note: AS the 42 months of authority are counting down, those that fled are being protected for 3.5 years, and the 1260 days of fleeing is still counting down, and the 1260 days of testifying is counting down, and the 42 months of trampling is counting down. All these run parallel with each other from the midpoint of the week to the end. But let's follow the 2 Witnesses, since John did.

They SHOW UP and begin their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint.
They testify for 1260 days. This takes them to just 3 1/2 days before the END of the week, when then are killed. 
They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days are are then resurrected - with all the rest of the Old Testament saints that are resurrected at the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In other words, all 5 countdowns are for the last half of the week. (Some people imagine the witnesses testify in the first half. they are in error.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

The events of the 2 witnesses (2W's) and the 7th trumpet prove my point.

They are the same timeline with the common denominator being the beast nation that comes out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet and then kills the 2W's.

Understand that the 2W's  are the people of Israel restored to Jerusalem. (1967) The 7 trumpets center on the same chronology.

----------

Both time lines end at an event with shared descriptions.

The 2W's end with the resur/rapt of the people of Israel after they are restored to Jerusalem.

The 7th trumpet shows Jesus coming for the kingdom at the last trumpet resur/rapt.

------------

The fact that the 3 1/2 day time period is shown by the 2W's timeline, means that the event is shared with the 7th trumpet.

The resur/rapt shown by the 2W's is plain to see.

The 7th/last trumpet resur/rapt is shown in Rev 11:15-19, as Jesus coming to take possession of the kingdom (v 15), judgment (v 18), and the revealing of Jesus. seen as the ark in heaven (v 19). After the 7th trumpet blows the mystery of God is finished, Rev 10:7.

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You are mistaken again, there is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. Yes, Jesus gets the kingdoms, but He remains in heaven until after the 70th week has finished - it ends at the 7th vial  - chapter 16. He does not come until chapter 19. 

You are mistaken again: the two witnesses are two men.  Their 1260 days starts JUST before the midpoint and goes to JUST before the end of the week.  The 42 months of trampling and 1260 days of testifying countdowns start first. The 42 month authority countdown starts last. 

|------>>>------42 months of trampling--->>>----|End of week

|------>>>------1260 days of witnessing --->>>----|End of week

...|------>>>------1260 days of fleeing------->>>----|End of week

...|------>>>------3 1/2 years of protection--->>>----|End of week

........|------>>>------42 months of authority--->>>----|End of week

The fact that the 3 1/2 day time period is shown by the 2W's timeline, means that the event is shared with the 7th trumpet.  No, it means the Two Witness SHOW UP exactly 3 1/2 days before the midpoint  - marked by the 7th trumpet.

The resur/rapt shown by the 2W's is plain to see.  IT is plain to see written in chapter 11, but what is not plain is that it really happens just before the end of the week. Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis - outside of John's chronology. 

The 7th trumpet shows Jesus coming for the kingdom at the last trumpet resur/rapt.  Sorry. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet of THAT SERIES, but Paul's "last trump" is not of that series. It is probably the last trump a the FEAST of trumpets of some year. And it will CERTAINLY be the last trumpet of the church age, for the rapture will END the church age. There is NO COMING at the 7th Trumpet. There is not rapture / gathering at the 7th trumpet. What DOES happen is the 7th trumpet marks the moment in time that the man of sin abominates, and the 7th trumpet starts the CLOSING process in the throne room of heaven where property is transferred. The World is taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Someone has said: 'If you come across someone who has the end times all figured out'.   Well. It is said you can safely ignore them.

Excuse me, but Ezek 33:3-6 says that if someone is sounding the trumpet, you should pay attention and check it out.

I am sounding the trumpet.

I am announcing that the Bridegroom is coming.

I am telling you that Jesus will come for the kingdom 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls.

Then this planet is turned to fire.

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You may say that nobody knows the day or hour, not even the Son, Jesus. 

This is one of the most misunderstood texts of our day.

 

First, it was true when Jesus said it. But then just before He ascended to heaven, He said that He had already been given all power in heaven and earth.

So at that time, if He didn't know the day and hour, He would have received only SOME power and not ALL power (resurrection). 

Then Jesus gave us the Revelation to show us the day and the hour of His resur/rapt coming, yes?

 

Second,  the day and hour that Jesus was speaking about was the 67AD- 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

The reason that it was not revealed at that time (Mk 13) was because Israel had to have an opportunity to accept the Pentecost gospel kingdom.

Although there was prophecy that Israel would reject the new covenant and as a result Jerusalem would be destroyed, there was still a degree of free will and a chance to repent.

 

Also see that not everything was revealed about the death of Jesus in prophecy until after the ascension. Rom 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7-10.

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Now, knowing that there are things hidden and things that are revealed, we should be open to examine the words that are being spoken.

I think that is what we are doing here.

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What I'm seeing is that Jesus will be coming after Jerusalem falls.

If what I am saying is true, it will come to pass.

If it comes to pass, then you will understand how the scriptures told of our time.

If If I am wrong, then I will not be the first person to get it wrong, but I tried and have given myself to His cause.

But if I am right,....... Jesus is at the door and we are facing eternity within possibly months, or a few short years.

 ------

Look at the Middle East.

Look at Israel, half the size of the Netherlands, half the size of Belgium.

Facing Russia, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq.

How long until Jerusalem falls?

After Jerusalem falls, Jesus will come for the kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

[abcdef]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I would rather say, you are symbolizing things God never meant to be symbols. When it comes to a beast with 7 heads, yes, a symbol. When things make sense as taken literally, such as locusts, or the killing of 1/3 of the population, they are meant to be taken literally. Anyone can make Revelation say almost anything if they symbolize the book. In fact, people have: but if we take 100 people who symbolize, we end up with 100 different theories, for who is to say what a symbol means? 

 

The meaning of the symbols is found mostly in the OT.

They are not just "made up" if they are confirmed by the OT or the NT.

I have already shown you the meanings by using the OT or Rev but you seem to deny the existence of those scriptures.

 

Dan. 9:16, Jerusalem is His Holy mountain.

Rev 17:15, the waters are people.

The "fig tree and all the trees" are the people of Israel Lk 21:29-30.

God is the fountain and rivers of blessings Jer 17:13.

 

You must ignore these symbols in order to make pretrib work.

Your proof is, this hasn't happened yet, so it has yet to happen.

But it has almost all happened.

What I'm telling you, is that by ignoring the symbols, you are not seeing that the end of all things material is at hand.

Jesus used symbolism all the time, but when you get to the Revelation, you bury the symbolism.

Why?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The meaning of the symbols is found mostly in the OT.

They are not just "made up" if they are confirmed by the OT or the NT.

I have already shown you the meanings by using the OT or Rev but you seem to deny the existence of those scriptures.

 

Dan. 9:16, Jerusalem is His Holy mountain.

Rev 17:15, the waters are people.

The "fig tree and all the trees" are the people of Israel Lk 21:29-30.

God is the fountain and rivers of blessings Jer 17:13.

 

You must ignore these symbols in order to make pretrib work.

Your proof is, this hasn't happened yet, so it has yet to happen.

But it has almost all happened.

What I'm telling you, is that by ignoring the symbols, you are not seeing that the end of all things material is at hand.

Jesus used symbolism all the time, but when you get to the Revelation, you bury the symbolism.

Why?

I agree that some of Revelation is symbols. 
I agree that for those things that are symbolic, the symbols can be found in the Old Testament. 
But still, many people come up with many answers, which tells me it is not as cut and dried as you seem to hint. 

You must ignore these symbols in order to make pretrib work. This is patently not true. Pretrib stands on its own scriptures. Paul is clear that HIS gathering comes just before wrath, and even as the trigger for wrath. If we look in Revelation for the start of wrath, we find wrath starts at the 6th seal. Paul's rapture then, fits in Revelation just before the 6th seal. The "trib" does not start until the 7th , so that makes the rapture PRETRIB. No tricks, no twisting, just taking the scriptures for what they say. 

As confirmation, shortly after the 6th seal we find a huge crowd - too large to number seen in heaven.
For further proof, when we study seal 5, it is the martyrs of the church age; and they are told that judgment (the 6th seal) cannot come until the FINAL martyr is killed. That fits, because the pretrib rapture will end the church age. 

For further proof, we discover that the 70th week is for DANIEL'S people, not for the church. For further proof, we discover that posttrib cannot be truth, for they can't get to the marriage and supper. For further proof,we discover that prewrath has to rewrite or rearrange most of Revelation to fit, showing is that can't be truth. For further proof, we use common sense and study the character of God. He would not sent His own children through His wrath. 

Your proof is, this hasn't happened yet, so it has yet to happen. This is truth. When we understand how incredibly accurate God has been with all fulfilled prophecy, we expect Him to be the same with end time prophecy. This is about as common sense a reason as there can be. 

But it has almost all happened.  Well, I can say this is one man's theory. Untold millions disagree with you.  And the ONLY WAY anyone could say this is if they symbolized most if not all of Revelation. As I said before, there has never been a time except in Egypt when massive bodies of water have been turned to blood. There has never been a nuclear war with many nukes turning the fresh water into wormwood. There has never been a time ANYWHERE in history that an angelic army kills 1/3 of the people. 

I understand, someone with a very vivid imagination can imagine all this has happened. 

by ignoring the symbols, you are not seeing that the end of all things material is at hand.  I DO think it is all at hand, but FUTURE: I think the rapture could be TONIGHT. 

when you get to the Revelation, you bury the symbolism.  This is not true. I leave things that must be symbols as symbols. When things make perfect sense taken as literal, I understand them as literal. For example, the four horses and riders: I suspect there are not REAL horses and riders. I suspect they are symbolic to REPRESENT other things. I could be mistaken; they could be real horses. 

Why? It makes good sense leaving literal things as literal and taking symbols as symbols. For example, we normally don't see 7 headed beasts. We normal don't see a red horse and rider starting wars. It could be possible as spiritual entities. 

Taking Revelation as I take it makes it a very smooth flowing book, as John takes the reader on a pretty much straight walk through time, from the time Jesus ascended to far into our future. 

Then, occasionally, I find Commentators that agree with me!