Tongues?

[enoob57]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:55 PM, Paul James said:

I just go on what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 14.  Verse 2 talks about personal prayer to God, not collective prayer in church.   He is quite clear that when he speaks in tongues more than them all, it is obviously not in the church setting, but in his private devotions when he is alone with God.

It is obvious the intent of the passage:
 

1 Cor 14:1

14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
KJV

1 Cor 14:3-5

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
KJV

1 Cor 14:12

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
KJV

 

1 Cor 14:14-15

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
KJV
 

1 Cor 14:14-15

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
KJV

 

1 Cor 14:18-19

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV
 

On 10/23/2021 at 5:55 PM, Paul James said:

It would be totally ridiculous to say that he would limit them to speaking in tongues just in church accompanied by an interpreter.

I have no argument at all with those who wish to speak gibberish in private that is between them and God. It is the public use of tongues without interpretation that I bring The Word of God to bear on... but like I said as you do not know what you are saying you are trusting solely upon your feelings and intuitions... God has said this to us in the OT
Isa 1:18

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV

I believe God's intent with the written Word is to reason with us and this promise

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

 

On 10/23/2021 at 5:55 PM, Paul James said:

I think that anti-tongues is so ingrained in you, that you can read what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, yet not accept what he actually says, and your overarching belief causes you to read things that Paul never wrote, and that logical comprehension of the chapter is ignored in favour of some wacky interpretation that says that Paul didn't really mean it when he clearly said that speaking in tongues without interpretation is for private devotions and not for public worship.

I assure you it is the Word of God I wish to instill within me and let go of flesh and the world that I am in... therefore gibberish~ when I could pray with Scripture unto God is obvious -I choose my understanding with the Scripture in prayer!

 

On 10/23/2021 at 5:55 PM, Paul James said:

It seems that there is one set of comprehension rules for ordinary folk, and quite another set for the type of religious folk who want the Bible to say what they want it to say.

I taught elementary school comprehension for 10 years, and I am sure that the 10 year olds in my classes would have said quite clearly that Paul would have meant that when he spoke in tongues more than all of the Corinthians, he would have used it in private prayer.  But then ordinary 10 year olds in an elementary school class are not so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly use.

This is snarky and reveals one aspect of your spirit in this posting....

[enoob57]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:06 PM, Waggles said:

That is highly speculative and simply opinion.

Prove from scripture that praying in tongues bypasses the word of God. 

How can praying in the power of the Holy Spirit be contrary to the gospel??

As to "intuition" and feelings you are blowing in the wind. What feelings? What intuition?

It is self evident by the very nature of the thing... you do not know what is being communicated (if anything) and thus the written Word of God is completely bypassed. Because in your own mind you do not know either that leaves only feelings and intuitions.

[Waggles]

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Because in your own mind you do not know either that leaves only feelings and intuitions.

Speculation by you.

As you are not Pentecostal and do not pray in tongues, nor partake of the operation of the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit, you are commenting on spiritual matters completely outside your knowledge and experience.

1Cor 2:13  And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 
14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 

1Cor 14:2  For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

I love scripture also.

[Paul James]

8 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It is obvious the intent of the passage:
 

1 Cor 14:1

14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
KJV

1 Cor 14:3-5

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
KJV

1 Cor 14:12

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
KJV

 

1 Cor 14:14-15

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
KJV
 

1 Cor 14:14-15

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
KJV

 

1 Cor 14:18-19

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV
 

I have no argument at all with those who wish to speak gibberish in private that is between them and God. It is the public use of tongues without interpretation that I bring The Word of God to bear on... but like I said as you do not know what you are saying you are trusting solely upon your feelings and intuitions... God has said this to us in the OT
Isa 1:18

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV

I believe God's intent with the written Word is to reason with us and this promise

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

 

I assure you it is the Word of God I wish to instill within me and let go of flesh and the world that I am in... therefore gibberish~ when I could pray with Scripture unto God is obvious -I choose my understanding with the Scripture in prayer!

 

This is snarky and reveals one aspect of your spirit in this posting....

I told you that I would be prodding you - all in the interests of fair debate.

I get my understanding of Scripture by just reading what is there.

I look forward to having you explain how that people, including those in my own church were speaking what you call "gibberish" which was understood as praising God in a rural Ghanaian village dialect, and the New Zealand Maori language. And from another testimony of someone who spoke in tongues, and a person from a foreign country cried out, "That person told me all my sins!"  Another person was speaking "gibberish" in an English church, and a Welsh native remarked how the person was praising God in perfect Welsh without an accent, and the speaker said, "All I was doing was praying in tongues" (gibberish as you call it).  And the testimony of a Cantonese woman sitting in an evangelistic meeting, heard a non-Chinese person say in perfect Cantonese, "You need to go forward and receive Christ."  Yet, the non-Chinese person was merely praying in "gibberish" as you call it.

As I said before, you have one of two choices - admit that modern tongues is not "gibberish" as you suppose;  or that all these people and those who were present during these events are lying.

By the way, I wasn't being snarky at all.  Just giving some facts about language comprehension.  After all, I do have an M.A. in English, and a Diploma in English as a Second Language, so I know something about it.  I don't need to pray for a voice in my head to tell me what I can quite easily comprehend from the actual text of 1 Corinthians 14.  Actually, I did pray about it once, and the answer that came to me was< "I wrote a whole chapter on it, so all you have to do is just believe what it says, pay special attention to verse 2."  Also, the Holy Spirit brought back to mind the actual events that happened to my close friend and me in our own church that the "gibberish" we spoke was praising God in actual understandable language.  That was the icing on the cake for me and proved conclusively that what we were praying in tongues was true and right.  No doubt about it.

And it was while I was an elder in a non-Charismatic Presbyterian church at the time.  This means that for the 40 years since I left the Charismatic movement, no one can say that I have been carried along by waves of ultra-Charismatic fervour, and yet I pray in tongues all the time and know that I am having great fellowship with God in the process.

[R. Hartono]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:26 AM, other one said:

so what and where was the miracle....    were the deciples speaking in many languages at the same time, or was the miracle that they were speaking in the local language and everyone was hearing differently...    like they had a mental translator...

I will say that I do pray in tongues when the Lord moves me to do so and it has never been because I wanted to...   I can't make it happen...    I do not know why or why it seems to be needed.  Sometimes I understand what it's for and sometimes not....    a few times I know who it's for but understand what it's about is none of my business...

the kind of tongues that you are posting the scripture about I personally have never observed...    but I do have acquaintances who have been missionaries in various countries that tell me it happens when the Lord needs it.

God is also using Xenolalia for individual rebuke and guidance during the church service. As the purpose is to guide the whole members.

[R. Hartono]

On 8/13/2020 at 12:39 AM, missmuffet said:

I do not support tongues in our world today. 

 

19 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It is self evident by the very nature of the thing... you do not know what is being communicated (if anything) and thus the written Word of God is completely bypassed. Because in your own mind you do not know either that leaves only feelings and intuitions.

 

12 hours ago, Waggles said:

Speculation by you.

As you are not Pentecostal and do not pray in tongues, nor partake of the operation of the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit, you are commenting on spiritual matters completely outside your knowledge and experience.

1Cor 2:13  And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 
14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 

1Cor 14:2  For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

I love scripture also.

 

10 hours ago, Paul James said:

I told you that I would be prodding you - all in the interests of fair debate.

I get my understanding of Scripture by just reading what is there.

I look forward to having you explain how that people, including those in my own church were speaking what you call "gibberish" which was understood as praising God in a rural Ghanaian village dialect, and the New Zealand Maori language. And from another testimony of someone who spoke in tongues, and a person from a foreign country cried out, "That person told me all my sins!"  Another person was speaking "gibberish" in an English church, and a Welsh native remarked how the person was praising God in perfect Welsh without an accent, and the speaker said, "All I was doing was praying in tongues" (gibberish as you call it).  And the testimony of a Cantonese woman sitting in an evangelistic meeting, heard a non-Chinese person say in perfect Cantonese, "You need to go forward and receive Christ."  Yet, the non-Chinese person was merely praying in "gibberish" as you call it.

As I said before, you have one of two choices - admit that modern tongues is not "gibberish" as you suppose;  or that all these people and those who were present during these events are lying.

By the way, I wasn't being snarky at all.  Just giving some facts about language comprehension.  After all, I do have an M.A. in English, and a Diploma in English as a Second Language, so I know something about it.  I don't need to pray for a voice in my head to tell me what I can quite easily comprehend from the actual text of 1 Corinthians 14.  Actually, I did pray about it once, and the answer that came to me was< "I wrote a whole chapter on it, so all you have to do is just believe what it says, pay special attention to verse 2."  Also, the Holy Spirit brought back to mind the actual events that happened to my close friend and me in our own church that the "gibberish" we spoke was praising God in actual understandable language.  That was the icing on the cake for me and proved conclusively that what we were praying in tongues was true and right.  No doubt about it.

And it was while I was an elder in a non-Charismatic Presbyterian church at the time.  This means that for the 40 years since I left the Charismatic movement, no one can say that I have been carried along by waves of ultra-Charismatic fervour, and yet I pray in tongues all the time and know that I am having great fellowship with God in the process.

Many christians' have become more of Theologians instead of following the early disciples, they refuse Holy Spirit Gifts and baptism and claim to "already have Jesus here".

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by R. Hartono

[enoob57]

On 10/25/2021 at 3:05 PM, Waggles said:

As you are not Pentecostal and do not pray in tongues, nor partake of the operation of the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit, you are commenting on spiritual matters completely outside your knowledge and experience.

No I am speaking of the 'IS' of the matter and you of the feelings and intuitions and this experience is your foundation but God says it is to be His Word...

[enoob57]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:07 PM, Paul James said:

I told you that I would be prodding you - all in the interests of fair debate.

I get my understanding of Scripture by just reading what is there.

I look forward to having you explain how that people, including those in my own church were speaking what you call "gibberish" which was understood as praising God in a rural Ghanaian village dialect, and the New Zealand Maori language. And from another testimony of someone who spoke in tongues, and a person from a foreign country cried out, "That person told me all my sins!"  Another person was speaking "gibberish" in an English church, and a Welsh native remarked how the person was praising God in perfect Welsh without an accent, and the speaker said, "All I was doing was praying in tongues" (gibberish as you call it).  And the testimony of a Cantonese woman sitting in an evangelistic meeting, heard a non-Chinese person say in perfect Cantonese, "You need to go forward and receive Christ."  Yet, the non-Chinese person was merely praying in "gibberish" as you call it.

As I said before, you have one of two choices - admit that modern tongues is not "gibberish" as you suppose;  or that all these people and those who were present during these events are lying.

By the way, I wasn't being snarky at all.  Just giving some facts about language comprehension.  After all, I do have an M.A. in English, and a Diploma in English as a Second Language, so I know something about it.  I don't need to pray for a voice in my head to tell me what I can quite easily comprehend from the actual text of 1 Corinthians 14.  Actually, I did pray about it once, and the answer that came to me was< "I wrote a whole chapter on it, so all you have to do is just believe what it says, pay special attention to verse 2."  Also, the Holy Spirit brought back to mind the actual events that happened to my close friend and me in our own church that the "gibberish" we spoke was praising God in actual understandable language.  That was the icing on the cake for me and proved conclusively that what we were praying in tongues was true and right.  No doubt about it.

And it was while I was an elder in a non-Charismatic Presbyterian church at the time.  This means that for the 40 years since I left the Charismatic movement, no one can say that I have been carried along by waves of ultra-Charismatic fervour, and yet I pray in tongues all the time and know that I am having great fellowship with God in the process.

That is your privilege in personal time with God... I don't need to verify the tongues movement as I have stated the basic elements of it which gives me pause ... even the history of is dubious... I like the Apostle Paul desire to know God Through His Word and understanding thereof - which is the push of 1Cor 14 in total... 

 

 

On 10/25/2021 at 5:07 PM, Paul James said:

After all, I do have an M.A. in English, and a Diploma in English as a Second Language, so I know something about it.

Many who have equal or more credentials than yourself disagree with you... I have noted that those who speak in tongues go to language school this also gives me pause...

On 10/25/2021 at 5:07 PM, Paul James said:

As I said before, you have one of two choices - admit that modern tongues is not "gibberish" as you suppose;  or that all these people and those who were present during these events are lying.

no I have a third choice and that is to leave it to the passing away, as the Word of God says it will do, and give it no mind...

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, enoob57 said:

but God says it is to be His Word...

You keep speculating and making false claims about my prayer life.

In the end Jesus wants for us all to be able to pray in tongues - a wonderful spiritual language that speaks directly to God with power.

[Paul James]

10 hours ago, enoob57 said:

That is your privilege in personal time with God... I don't need to verify the tongues movement as I have stated the basic elements of it which gives me pause ... even the history of is dubious... I like the Apostle Paul desire to know God Through His Word and understanding thereof - which is the push of 1Cor 14 in total... 

 

 

Many who have equal or more credentials than yourself disagree with you... I have noted that those who speak in tongues go to language school this also gives me pause...

no I have a third choice and that is to leave it to the passing away, as the Word of God says it will do, and give it no mind...

Seeing that 1 Corinthians 13:10 cannot prove that God's Word says that tongues and prophecy will not cease until Christ comes again and establishes His kingdom.  Where else does God's Word say that tongues and prophecy will cease at the end of the Apostolic Age?