When is the rapture?

[The Light]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Who was the Word of God given to?  

Then The Word walked among us and Salvation was open to all, whomsoever would.  

When The Word has been published in every language, then all gentiles, or the fullness of the gentiles has come in.  

Where does it state that the fullness of the Gentiles occurs when the Gospel is preached to all. The Church will already be in heaven when the Gospel is preached to all.

 

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

NO where does it state that once the Word has been made available to all, that THEY go anywhere or that God does anything with them as a group.

Exactly. I never claimed such, you did.

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Unless I have missed those verses.  Have I?  IS IT WRITTEN?  OR is it mans assumption?

It seems to be something you assumed.

 

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 PLEASE, PUT IT TO REST,

WHERE IS IT WRITTEN? 

WHERE DOES GOD SAY "THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES"   MEANS I WILL TAKE THEM FROM THE EARTH

What SUBJECT is being discussed when "fulness of the gentiles" comes about?  Is it the return of Christ?  Is it an EVENT to take place being spoken of?  Let's see.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

The ONLY THING connected with 

the fullness, is the blindness.  

HOW DOES ONE MAKE THE LEAP FROM THAT TO "PRE TRIB RAP"?

 

You might need to understand these verses.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Bias toward a preference.

Seems like Dennis1209 made an honest observation to me.

Edited August 31, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Greetings brother Moby,

Great thread prompt....never bored thinking about this. 
 

firstly, I don’t believe you could find in scripture a 7 year tribulation period.  All I see is 1260 days, 42 months, “time, times and a half a time”....which all equal 3.5 years. if you do find it, please show me where? 

Secondly, I don’t believe it is in the Bible that the church cannot be in Daniel’s 70th week.  I know Daniel says the 70 weeks prophecy is for Israel but it doesn’t say the church can’t also be in it for some part.  If the word does say both are mutually exclusive from each other, please show me where it says that. So, to go along with this thought, I don’t see where in the Bible it says the church can’t be here to see some covenant being confirmed, which according to Daniel begins the 70th week. (I know some believe Jesus began this 70th week by confirming the new covenant, and I respect your beliefs. That is just not mine....at this point.) 
 

thirdly, I believe the Bible does say church age believers will be kept from His wrath. So when does His wrath begin?  Again I believe the Bible is also very clear....right after the 6th seal. See Rev 6:12-17.  This tells me the church will not experience the trumpets and bowl judgments.

fourthly, so when do the trumpets begin?  I’m not sure....honestly I don’t know if they precede the abomination of desolation or are subsequent to the abomination or maybe even some are released before the abomination (1-4) and some after (5-7). For example, the first 4 trumpets could be released before the abomination since they all seem to go together, having great effect on the Earth.  The last 3 are called the 3 woes and it’s possible they could be released after the abomination of desolation.  These last 3 imo are much scarier in that they affect humans, not just the earth, sea, or rivers (although obviously this is scary too).  I think it could be possible these can play out after the abomination. 
 

fifthly, I do believe the great multitude of Rev 7:9-17 represent the raptured church, and very conveniently show up right after.....drum roll please......the 6th seal, and before......drum roll please......any trumpets are released. 
 

sixthly, I’m still researching unresolved issues I have so my study is incomplete at this time. I also seem to evolve in my thinking as I see things differently as time progresses and I study more things. What I’m saying simply is, my thinking is not etched in stone...still reading with an open mind, always watching, always reading other thoughts and weighing their words, always reading the Word by itself as well, and always hopeful that the spirit within me illuminates my thinking. 
 

so, I hope this answers your question...

spock

ps....oh, you should know this too...I also believe seals 1-5 were opened when Christ ascended to heaven and have been in play for 2000 years. Therefore, I’m thinking the 6th seal is the next event from Revelation. This is not to say some other event can’t precede it....like the Gog War from Ezekiel 38/39. 

Thank you for the reply Spock!

I've noticed that most people on this forum have an a serious hang up to reading links posted such as this one I posted:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Rob seems to have answered every question you seem to be posing in your reply above. I would be interested in your opinion of that link after you have read it as you seem to be a deep thinker who is open to others thoughts as well which are great qualities to have!

[Moby]

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

None of it. The Word speaks for itself.

I noticed that you are fearful of providing the information of who teaches the CORPORATE MANCHILD. What do you fear? Is it a cult? What are you afraid of?

I also see that you do not understand the meaning of "LIKEWISE ALSO" You might look that up in the dictionary as Jesus tells, LIKEWISE ALSO regarding His coming.

I also see that you do not understand that Jesus pinpoints the timing of a rapture and then says He will come in a time you think not.

I also see that you do not understand that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

I also see that you do not understand that Noah is on the ark 7 days before the flood.

 

Really. You seem to think you understand the Olive tree and yet don't understand the timing of part of Israel being grafted in again.

Maybe you should learn the parable of the Fig, as that is what teaches the timing of the coming harvests.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

What do the verses say? They say that God had planned on Israel being the first harvest of the fig tree, as He saw the fathers at the first fruits, but they served other Gods. FYI, the fig tree has two harvests. The first crop is the breba crop. The second harvest is the main harvest.

So when God saw that Israel was serving other Gods, that meant the Israel would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles then become the first harvest. It is not until the harvest of the Gentiles occurs that the blindness is removed from part of Israel. Then the twelve tribes can have their eyes opened as the blindness is removed.

And here is that royal priesthood in heaven before the Seals are opened, which is before the tribulation.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Our Father declares the end from the beginning:

Isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So Israel's choice to begin worshiping idols did not catch God by surprise and He had to switch to plan B and declare the "Gentiles then would become the first harvest".

The Father through His Holy Spirit chooses who and when He reveals His truth to and who He doesn't. The simply fact that the manchild in verse 5 is referred to as "they" in verse 6 should make anyone with a grade school education able to ascertain the man child is more than one person:

Revelation 12:5-6  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.  (6)  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they(man child) should feed her(woman) there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This Romans 11 passage has absolutely nothing to do with a remnant of physical Israel being grafted in after all the Gentile believers:

Romans 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

"The four beasts and four and twenty elders" are singing about themselves and every pronoun in that paragraph proves such:

Revelation 5:8-10  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  (9)  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  (10)  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Please notice there is no one standing by the sea of glass in chapter 4 but is filled with saints after  chapter 15:

Revelation 4:6  and before the throne, as it were a sea of glass like unto crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, four living creatures full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

That is because this description of the ONLY rapture/resurrection of the righteous takes place in between these two chapters AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:

Revelation 14:12-16  Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.  (13)  And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.  (14)  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think it's pretty amazing that you see with such clarity.

 

I see with clarity because I don't let my imagination run away. If I don't understand something,  I do not change what the word says so that I can understand INCORRECTLY. For example, when the word says: ¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

I accept that as fact. In other words,most people change the word of God and put the daily sacrifice and the AOD happening on the same day because they cannot figure out how to accept what the Word says. Once that make that incorrect assumption that leads to more mistakes. I would rather accept what I know is true and let the understanding come later. And it will.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

We really do see much of eschatology the same way.

 

I see you as very analytical, as I am. But you seem afraid to accept what ALL the Word says. It should puzzle you as to how it is possible for Jesus to pinpoint His coming and then tell you He is coming at a time when you think not. It should challenge your ideas when He says that you can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass. And most of all, you should be able to determine that Noah is on the ark 7 days before the flood. That may not mean, pretrib rapture to you, but the facts are the facts and you should accept the facts as they are. One truth can open your eyes to another truth. In the same way, one incorrect conclusion can lead to another incorrect conclusion. Accept what the Word says even if you don't understand it. The understanding will come later. Get the facts.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

I mean, except you default to the pre-trib thing even after all you know.

 

It is because of what I know that I can see that there will be a pretrib rapture. When I started studying revelation, I believed pretrib because, I think, that's what you hear. Then after a period of time and study I realized that the cosmic signs of Matt 24 were the cosmic signs of Rev 6, which means Matt 24 cannot be the coming of Jesus in Rev 19. Then after examining the coming of Rev 6 I realized that this occurred before the wrath of God. That meant that there was a prewrath rapture, so I concluded that the Church would be raptured prewrath. Then after sometime passed, I realized that if there was 144,000 firstfriuts from the 12 tribes, that meant there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes, pre wrath. But the 12 tribes can't have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That meant more than one rapture, which agrees with  plenty of other scriptures.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

My thought here is how would one go about proving a 'will not be'? 

"Unicorns exist because it can't be proven they do not exist." is false. 

 

We can prove that unicorns exist.

Isa 34

⁵ For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

⁶ The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

⁷ And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

"There is a pretrib rapture because it can't be proven there isn't one." is also false. It's negative evidence.

 "It can't be there isn't." Is proof of nothing.

I can prove that there are 24 elders in heaven with white robes and crowns, before the seals are opened, that are speaking for others and saying that they are kings and priest before the throne. I can prove that there is more than one harvest. I can prove that He will come when it is like the days of Noah and LIKEWISE ALSO I can prove He will come when it will be like the days of Lot. I can prove that He will come as lightning more than once. I can prove exactly when He will come and then prove that He will come in an hour that you think not. I can prove that the fig tree has two harvests. I can prove that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass. I can prove that He will come at the last trump and come at the trump of God. I can prove that there will be a dead in Christ barley harvest, an early summer wheat harvest and a fall fruit harvest. I can prove that the Jews will say summer is over, the harvest is past and we are not saved. I can prove that 70 weeks are determined on Daniels people and only 69 week have transpired. I can prove that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and I can prove that the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. I can prove that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes which guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes. I can prove that Pentecost is an early summer harvest feast and that the Feast of Trumpets is a fall harvest feast. There's lots of things that we can prove that point to more than one rapture and nothing that points to one rapture only.

I certainly agree the absense of proof is not proof. However, proving that Jesus comes after the man of sin is revealed, just before the wrath of God occurs does not prove that He will not come before that event.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Our Father declares the end from the beginning:

Isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So Israel's choice to begin worshiping idols did not catch God by surprise and He had to switch to plan B and declare the "Gentiles then would become the first harvest".

Prolly need to take that up with God if you lack understanding. He says He found Israel like grapes in the wilderness. Maybe you don't understand what that means. He also says that He saw the  fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME, BUT they went to Baalpeor. I guess none of that is making sense to you.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

So as much as you posted Romans 11, and you still don't understand?

Rom 11

²⁰ Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

²¹ For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

Quote

The Father through His Holy Spirit chooses who and when He reveals His truth to and who He doesn't. The simply fact that the manchild in verse 5 is referred to as "they" in verse 6 should make anyone with a grade school education able to ascertain the man child is more than one person:

Well Rob, maybe you should read again and realize that the man child, Jesus, IS CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE. So, what you claim is totally impossible, based on the Word of God. Additionally, the "they" spoken of in verse 6 has to refer to those that prepared a place for the woman to flee to.

Rev 12

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Furthermore, if you understood what happens when the abomination of desolation is set up, you would realize that the woman has to be those in the nation of Israel that flee as instructed in the Word.

Still afraid to reveal what organization is responsible for this false teaching of the manchild? It has to be false as we see that the man child is caught up to heaven before the woman flees.

Quote

 

This Romans 11 passage has absolutely nothing to do with a remnant of physical Israel being grafted in after all the Gentile believers:

Romans 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Maybe, this will help.

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

Quote

 

"The four beasts and four and twenty elders" are singing about themselves and every pronoun in that paragraph proves such:

Revelation 5:8-10  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  (9)  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  (10)  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I'm pretty sure that there are more kindreds and tongues and people and nations than 24, so we can safely conclude that the 24 elders are speaking for more than just themselves.

 

Quote

Please notice there is no one standing by the sea of glass in chapter 4 but is filled with saints after  chapter 15:

Yeah, you are right, there is no one standing in verse 6. But if you notice in verse 4 there are 24 elders SITTING round about the throne clothed in white raiment and they have on their heads crowns of gold. And you should note that the sea of glass is before the throne. So again, what you are saying does not stand up to what the scripture says.

Rev 4

⁶ And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Rev 4

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

Quote

Revelation 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

That is because this description of the ONLY rapture/resurrection of the righteous takes place in between these two chapters AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:

Problem is we already see the 24 elders in Rev 4 before the throne dressed in white raiment and having crowns on the head. Then in chapter 5 we see the 24 elders before the throne obviously speaking for others as there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations. And they are kings and priests. These people, the Church, will be in heaven before the 7 year tribulation as they are in heaven before the seals are opened.

I guess Jesus will come in an hour that you think not, clearly agreeing with what is written in the scriptures.

Quote

Revelation 14:12-16  Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.  (13)  And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.  (14)  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Yes I'm familiar with Rev 14. I already posted it when you claimed that the unrighteous are gathered 1st and cast into hell but Rev 14 shows that the righteous are gathered 1st into the clouds.

Of course, I don't recall you responding to your error. Maybe you responded and I did not see it. Either way, you are wrong again as the scripture proves.

Additionally, your claim that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals on the ark, was disproven by this verse:

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

That said, I haven't had any problem proving what you are saying is incorrect as the scripture speaks for itself. The problem, as always, is to get you to face your errors. And with so many errors continually showing up in what you are posting, the odds are, you are wrong about the pretribulation rapture also.

Edited August 31, 2020 by The Light

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Where does it state that the fullness of the Gentiles occurs when the Gospel is preached to all. The Church will already be in heaven when the Gospel is preached to all.

Could it come in in any other way?
 

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are those who are Christ are Abrahams seed? 
Is the Church then comprised of those who are Christs',  Abrahams seed? 

is it your contention Abrahams seed will be flown off to heaven before Satan is kicked out of heaven? (as that would be pre trib)

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Quote

NO where does it state that once the Word has been made available to all, that THEY go anywhere or that God does anything with them as a group.

Exactly. I never claimed such, you did.

Is the church a group or not?

Do you claim that the church is flown off to heaven pre trib?

4 hours ago, The Light said:

It seems to be something you assumed.

What did I assume?

4 hours ago, The Light said:

You might need to understand these verses.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

I understand these verses.  What do those have to do with the post?

 

4 hours ago, The Light said:

WHERE DOES GOD SAY "THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES"   MEANS I WILL TAKE THEM FROM THE EARTH

What do those verses have to do with this question?  OR ARE YOU SAYING THESE ARE THE WORDS GOD USED  JER 8 AND HOS 9,

TO TELL US THERE WOULD BE A PRE TRIB RAP?



 

[DeighAnn]

Those who are alive and remain are changed when 


Christ returns for the day of vengeance.  

People go into there is a rap here, and another rap there,  and it has to be because it is in between this chapter and that chapter and there are harvests and all the other things they put forth but truth is  

But here are the basics

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


 

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;
                   to
comfort all that mourn;



Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:


 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

 

 However, proving that Jesus comes after the man of sin is revealed, just before the wrath of God occurs does not prove that He will not come before that event.

Correct. 

I see it as conspicuous by absence. When the coming of Christ is shown in great detail, and the gathering is shown in detail, and the presence of a great multitude no man could number is shown on a sea of glass, and it is said they have come from out of within GT, and we know all this is a coming of Jesus and a gathering of His people, all sometime after the week begins either mid, post, or prewrath; it's quite an omission to leave out any description of a pretrib group taken off the earth alive and gathered about the throne of God.

It must be a group numbering in the billions what with the dead and living being raised to be with Christ forever. A sinless, morally perfect group in the billions of people suddenly gone and not a single mention of the resulting chaos nor lauding of their sinless, perfect walk before the Lord and their reward in heaven. 

This omission is in contrast to the the group that does appear in heaven having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb; a groups we know came out of GT and taken off the earth immediately before wrath falls and in concert with the appearance of Jesus.

Then since there is no other comparable description and we know the one described is for sure a gathering, there isn't a pretrib gathering.

[Moby]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Prolly need to take that up with God if you lack understanding. He says He found Israel like grapes in the wilderness. Maybe you don't understand what that means. He also says that He saw the  fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME, BUT they went to Baalpeor. I guess none of that is making sense to you.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

So as much as you posted Romans 11, and you still don't understand?

Rom 11

²⁰ Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

²¹ For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

Well Rob, maybe you should read again and realize that the man child, Jesus, IS CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE. So, what you claim is totally impossible, based on the Word of God. Additionally, the "they" spoken of in verse 6 has to refer to those that prepared a place for the woman to flee to.

Rev 12

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Furthermore, if you understood what happens when the abomination of desolation is set up, you would realize that the woman has to be those in the nation of Israel that flee as instructed in the Word.

Still afraid to reveal what organization is responsible for this false teaching of the manchild? It has to be false as we see that the man child is caught up to heaven before the woman flees.

Maybe, this will help.

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

I'm pretty sure that there are more kindreds and tongues and people and nations than 24, so we can safely conclude that the 24 elders are speaking for more than just themselves.

 

Yeah, you are right, there is no one standing in verse 6. But if you notice in verse 4 there are 24 elders SITTING round about the throne clothed in white raiment and they have on their heads crowns of gold. And you should note that the sea of glass is before the throne. So again, what you are saying does not stand up to what the scripture says.

Rev 4

⁶ And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Rev 4

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

Problem is we already see the 24 elders in Rev 4 before the throne dressed in white raiment and having crowns on the head. Then in chapter 5 we see the 24 elders before the throne obviously speaking for others as there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations. And they are kings and priests. These people, the Church, will be in heaven before the 7 year tribulation as they are in heaven before the seals are opened.

I guess Jesus will come in an hour that you think not, clearly agreeing with what is written in the scriptures.

Yes I'm familiar with Rev 14. I already posted it when you claimed that the unrighteous are gathered 1st and cast into hell but Rev 14 shows that the righteous are gathered 1st into the clouds.

Of course, I don't recall you responding to your error. Maybe you responded and I did not see it. Either way, you are wrong again as the scripture proves.

Additionally, your claim that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals on the ark, was disproven by this verse:

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

That said, I haven't had any problem proving what you are saying is incorrect as the scripture speaks for itself. The problem, as always, is to get you to face your errors. And with so many errors continually showing up in what you are posting, the odds are, you are wrong about the pretribulation rapture also.

I am going to try this one more time and then ignore your silly pretrib theory based on scripture that has nothing to do with proving a pretrib rapture!

You continue to try and divide the scriptures into two raptures even though Jesus clearly commanded us NOT to break the scriptures

 

John 10:34-36  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  (35)  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),  (36)  say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
 

Paul clearly told us the church was in the wilderness proving it began thousands of years before Christ physical ministry for He was with them in the wilderness:

 

Acts 7:37-38  This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me.  (38)  This is he(CHRIST) that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

 

1 Corinthians 10:1-4  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  (2)  and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  (3)  and did all eat the same spiritual food;  (4)  and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
 

Paul, Peter, John, and all the apostles clearly taught the same exact gospel to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles:

 

Acts 13:46-47  And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.  (47)  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

Paul was clearly quoting Isaiah in Acts chapter 13:

 

Isaiah 49:6  yea, he saith, It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 

Abraham was a Gentile:

 

Acts 15:14-18 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (15) And to this agree the words of the prophets;

 

Abraham, his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob were all Syrians:

 

Deuteronomy 26:5 And thou shalt answer and say before Jehovah thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father(Jacob); and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there, few in number; and he became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous(Israel).

 

God changed Jacob’s name to Israel:

 

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

 

The name “Israel” means “he will rule as God”:

 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3478&t=KJV

 

Please notice that Israel was promised to become both be a nation as well as a company of nations:

 

Genesis 35:10-11 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. (11) And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

 

This company of nations was a prophesy of the many believing Gentiles from all of the world who would become one holy nation with the believing Jews. Peter as a believing Jew declared himself a part of this holy nation with the believing Gentiles who are now the people of God as one body of Christ:

 

1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

Being bought by the blood of Jesus we claim by faith our bodies as the land for an everlasting possession ruling over it as a part of Israel bearing the good fruit that glorifies our Father in our bodies:

 

Genesis 35:12  and the land which I gave unto Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

 

Genesis 48:4 and said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a company of peoples, and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

 

Hebrews 6:7-8 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: (8) but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.

 

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; (20) for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

 

Israel’s hands were guided by the Holy Spirit to bless Ephraim above Manasseh. Manasseh represents the physical nation of Israel whereas Ephraim represents a multitude of Gentile nations:

 

Genesis 48:14-20  And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the first-born. (15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long unto this day, (16) the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. (17) And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. (18) And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head. (19) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He(Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother(Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (20)  And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

 

Joseph being sold into Egypt by his physical brethren represents what Jesus, born of the tribe of Judah, experienced at the hand of His Jewish brethren.  Though both Judah and Joseph came through Israel, Jesus became the spiritual seed that bears spiritual children while the birthright passed through Joseph’s two sons being Manasseh as type of the believing Jews and Ephraim as a type of the believing Gentiles from many nations:

 

1 Chronicles 5:1-2 And the sons of Reuben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s couch, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel; and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. (2) For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the prince(Jesus); but the birthright was Joseph’s),

 

Jesus made this analogy abundantly clear when He said “there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last”:

 

Luke 13:28-30 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. (29) And they(believing Gentiles) shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. (30) And behold, there are last(believing Gentiles) who shall be first, and there are first(believing Jews) who shall be last.

 

First born Manasseh represents the lost sheep of physical Israel who Jesus said must first be invited into the kingdom:

 

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: (6) but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

But the majority of the citizens of His physical country hated Him and refused the invitation of their King:

 

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent an ambassage after him, saying, We will not that this man reign over us.

 

So Ephraim representing a much greater company of Gentile nations are now coming in first and then a remnant of Jews will be unhardened to the gospel as the Lord finishes the executing of His Word upon the earth:

 

Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

 

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: (28) for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

 

If Isaiah was clearly prophesying in chapter 49 that the Gentiles were coming into salvation then he would have known and prophesied of them in chapter 60 as he did calling them the "nations" which included a remnant of all nations from Israel as well as all the other nations of the world from the time of Christ until today who will gather themselves together spiritually as ONE during the tribulation!:

 

Isaiah 60:3-4  And nations shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.  (4)  Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: they all gather themselves together, they come to thee; thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be carried in the arms.
 

Paul clearly proved the "election of grace" extended clean back in Elijah's day in Romans chapter 11 when he said "also at this present time":

 

Romans 11:1-7  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

 

This proves "election of grace" was from the foundation of the world not just since Christ:

 

Ephesians 1:3-6  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:  (4)  even as he chose(election) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:  (5)  having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  (6)  to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

 

ALL the scriptures clearly fit into one beautiful story of redemption of ONE people who will be called ONE olive tree called ALL Israel but the same distortions of the scriptures that Jesus, Paul, and the apostles faced 2000 years ago have occurred again by the many denominations today:

 

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10  That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.  (10)  Is there a thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been long ago, in the ages which were before us.

 

Jesus clearly says He will raise up His people at the "last day" which Rob clearly proves is after the tribulation in this part of his link:

So this great and notable day after the tribulation is a year long of wrath also called the “last day” when Jesus said He would raise up those that believe on Him:

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

This is when the last trump is blown and the Lord our God will gather us as His flock up from the earth in the “last day” which we learned above is called the “year of His redeemed” and is also referred to as “that day”:

Zechariah 9:14-16 And Jehovah shall be seen over them; and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Jehovah will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. (15) Jehovah of hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. (16) And Jehovah their God will save them in that day as the flock of his people; for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted on high over his land.

Christ’s resurrection after the cross was called the “firstfruit” which took place around 30 AD:

1 Corinthians 15:20-22  But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruit of them that are asleep. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

So “Christ the firstfruit” took place in 30 AD then they that are Christ’s at his coming “in the last day” is the only other resurrection/rapture of the saints and “then cometh the end”:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; then they that are Christ’s, at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

This “last day” resurrection/rapture cannot be 3 1/2 years into the tribulation as the midtribbers claim or 7 years before the last day/year as the pretribbers claim:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens are no more, they will not awake, nor be roused out of sleep.

So the resurrection/rapture cannot happen until the last day/year after the sun is darkened and the wrath of God begins to cause the heavens to pass away and the earth begins to be burnt up:

2 Pet.3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

The heavens could not pass away or the earth burn up at the beginning or even the middle of the seven years of tribulation or there would not be anybody here to experience “great tribulation”!  The resurrection and rapture could only be during the last year called “the day of the Lord”.

Please study this link and cast out your silly theory of two rapture/resurrections because it does not fit the sum of Father's Word!:

 

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/