luigi Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,774 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 318 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, John n Claudia said: Luigi, Thank you for clarifying your position. It is true that Paul tells us that there is no more Jew or Greek, but we are all one in Christ (Galatians 3:28). However, Paul is talking to the church in Galatia, so he is talking to Christians. Within the Church, it is true that there is no more Jew or Greek and we are all one people in Christ. However, this does not mean that the Jews outside the Church ceased to exist for God. Paul also tells us that just as the Church was grafted in, the Jews will be re-grafted back in (Romans 11:11 - 24). God has made promises to the Jews and different promises to the Church and He will keep all of His promises to each group. Thank you for clarifying this. A while back, I was encouraged to examine all of my assumptions. It took a long time, but I did this and as a result of my studies under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, I have rejected just about every assumption I had when I started the examination. This is why I am firmly convinced that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon. There is not just the negative argument presented in this thread, but God also showed me a positive argument through scriptures that also shows this must be true. One of the earliest assumption I had to reject was that of a pre-tribulation rapture. From our other interactions, I believe that you are very much being led by the Holy Spirit. I know that there are many, many arguments that seem to support a pre-tribulation rapture and that virtually every church pushes this belief. However, I would very much like to encourage you to search the scriptures and examine this belief. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you what is the truth and then trust Him to do the revealing. Ask if there will be multiple raptures for different groups of people of if there will only be one rapture for the one church that Jesus founded. Ask if it makes sense that God would protect the Church from all pain and suffering during the last few years when it has gone through so much pain and suffering through the preceding 2000 years. Ask if it makes sense that God would remove His witness to the World at the time that it needs the witness the most. Ask if it makes sense that the Church will return to rule and reign with Christ on the Earth during the Millennial Kingdom when God promised that the Jews would rule and reign on the Earth and that the Church would have mansions in the city of New Jerusalem. I am confident that after you have finished this honest examination, you will be led to the Truth. I too started out as an OSAS believer, and was one for many years, before recognizing the truth in the Word. We are all currently deceived by the devil, which deception for the faithful will come to an end, upon the dragon being cast out unto the earth. There will then be no erroneous perspectives, as the faithful will all know the truth. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John n Claudia Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 8 hours ago, Diaste said: The whole time period is not 'tribulation'. GT is cut short from the end of the week per Matt 24, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Post trib is pre-end of the week. Coming as a thief is a problem. Diaste, I agree with you that the Jews will not be subject to seven years of intense persecution and that the Great Tribulation is "only" the last 3.5 years before Jesus returns. I have a very different view of the last days from that of everyone else. My initial post here is a perfect example of that. I do not believe that Jesus will come to rapture His Church until the end of the Great Tribulation. I also believe that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon as I stated in my initial post. I also know that there are many very committed Christians who strongly believe that the Great Tribulation is all that is left and the first 3.5 years occurred in the past. I have a very different position on this as well and believe that we still have seven years ahead of us where we will see the rise of the Antichrist for the first 3.5 years and then the Great Tribulation will begin after he overruns Jerusalem and throws the Jews in concentration camps scattered about his empire as per Zechariah 14. I personally believe that much of the first 3.5 years of the Antichrist will consist of him consolidating his power and it will only be close to the beginning of the Great Tribulation that he declares war on Israel and conquers them at the time of the Abomination. Because of this, I try to be very careful in how I phrase things. I do not refer to a "seven year tribulation", but rather "the years of the Antichrist". I also only use the Great Tribulation to refer to the last 3.5 years. I disagree with the belief that the Great Tribulation will be less than the 1260 days mentioned in Daniel for the Great Tribulation or the 1290 days after the Abomination. Therefore, I cannot agree with Jesus returning and rapturing His Church prior to these days that Daniel tells us. I believe that things will happen as described, the Great Tribulation will begin 30 days after the Abomination and last 1260 days. After that, Jesus will return to rapture the Church and establish the Millennial Kingdom. As i said, Jesus coming as a thief at the Battle of Armageddon is a big problem for the post-tribulation theory and since i cannot reject post-tribulation, I have to reject Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon. 8 hours ago, Diaste said: You're going to gather fact from mankind and override the scriptures? What kind of nonsense is that? We are to gather fact from mankind and then use the scriptures to interpret that fact. I do not think that anyone on these forums or indeed anywhere in the world would deny that the Christian teaching is that Jesus is going to return at the Battle of Armageddon and that if such a battle were to take place, then Jesus would return at that time. Here is my logic: Unbelievers believe that Jesus will return at the Battle of Armageddon Therefore, when armies gather on the planes of Megiddo to do battle, unbelievers will expect Jesus to return at that time If Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon he is returning at a time when the unbeliever expect Him These first three things flow directly from human expectations. Now we need to bring in scripture to see the flaw. In scriptures, Jesus told us that He would return at a time that the unbelievers do not expect. Since scripture tells us that Jesus will return when people do not expect Him and people will expect Him at Armageddon, this means that Jesus cannot return. Rather than using fact from mankind to override scripture, I am using fact from scripture to override mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,774 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 318 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, John n Claudia said: Here is my logic: Unbelievers believe that Jesus will return at the Battle of Armageddon Therefore, when armies gather on the planes of Megiddo to do battle, unbelievers will expect Jesus to return at that time If Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon he is returning at a time when the unbeliever expect Him These first three things flow directly from human expectations. Now we need to bring in scripture to see the flaw. In scriptures, Jesus told us that He would return at a time that the unbelievers do not expect. Since scripture tells us that Jesus will return when people do not expect Him and people will expect Him at Armageddon, this means that Jesus cannot return. Rather than using fact from mankind to override scripture, I am using fact from scripture to override mankind. The dragon, the beast, and its mouth are allotted 1,260 days, at the conclusion of which the Lords judgment shall sit and rule to terminate the beasts rule until its ultimate demise. The kingdom will then be awarded to the saints with the Lord commencing to reign on the earth. The Lord's return and commencing to reign with His saints also correlates with the conclusion of the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem. I guess the question now is: How long is the short wait following the conclusion of the second woe, and the Lord's return and commencing to reign through His saints, does Armageddon commence? Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Edited August 23, 2020 by luigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, luigi said: The dragon, the beast, and its mouth are allotted 1,260 days, at the conclusion of which the Lords judgment shall sit and rule to terminate the beasts rule until its ultimate demise. The kingdom will then be awarded to the saints with the Lord commencing to reign on the earth. The Lord's return and commencing to reign with His saints also correlates with the conclusion of the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem. I guess the question now is: How long is the short wait following the conclusion of the second woe, and the Lord commencing to reign through His saints, does Armageddon commence? Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Armegeddon had already commenced before the two witnesses are killed. The beast taking control of Jerusalem during the war is proof of that. Three days after the beast(Daniels king of the south) has taken control of Jerusalem, the king of the north responds with the abomination of desolation causing a great earthquake and a cloud ascending from Jerusalem. John gave a great discription of that cloud departing from the earth as a scroll being rolled together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,774 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 318 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said: Armegeddon had already commenced before the two witnesses are killed. The beast taking control of Jerusalem during the war is proof of that. Three days after the beast(Daniels king of the south) has taken control of Jerusalem, the king of the north responds with the abomination of desolation causing a great earthquake and a cloud ascending from Jerusalem. John gave a great discription of that cloud departing from the earth as a scroll being rolled together. If Armageddon had already commenced prior to the two witnesses being killed, at which time according to the Word the Lord will commence to reign, then what is the third woe that shall shortly come according to the Word following the Lord's return and commencing to reign along with His saints. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, luigi said: If Armageddon had already commenced prior to the two witnesses being killed, at which time according to the Word the Lord will commence to reign, then what is the third woe that shall shortly come according to the Word following the Lord's return and commencing to reign along with His saints. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. The Lord's reign begins at the sound of the seventh Trump. https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-15.htm Those who worshiped the beast and recieved its mark will be tormented in his presence. Edited August 23, 2020 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John n Claudia Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, luigi said: If Armageddon had already commenced prior to the two witnesses being killed, at which time according to the Word the Lord will commence to reign, then what is the third woe that shall shortly come according to the Word following the Lord's return and commencing to reign along with His saints. Luigi, Notice that 3.5 days after the two witnesses are killed, God calls them up to Heaven. This is the rapture, so 3.5 days after the two witnesses are killed, Jesus will return and after the 45 days of the Wrath of God, the Millennial Kingdom will have been set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,774 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 318 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 31 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said: The Lord's reign begins at the sound of the seventh Trump. https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-15.htm Those who worshiped the beast and recieved its mark will be tormented in his presence. The Lord's return and commencing to reign does begin at the sound of the seventh trump, which also precedes the third woe, which is Armageddon, where the Lord's wrath upon the worshippers of the beast commences. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 1 minute ago, luigi said: The Lord's return and commencing to reign does begin at the sound of the seventh trump, which also precedes the third woe, which is Armageddon, where the Lord's wrath upon the worshippers of the beast commences. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. So you believe the beast invasion of Armegeddon Israel is not the beginning of the war of Armegeddon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John n Claudia Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said: So you believe the beast invasion of Armegeddon Israel is not the beginning of the war of Armegeddon? I am not sure what you mean by Armageddon Israel. Armageddon is a single battle that will take place in the plains of Megiddo. It is not an entire war. The Beast is going to conquer Israel at the time of the Abomination, essentially ending Israel and putting all of the Jews in concentration camps scattered around the empire of the antichrist. After this, the war between the Antichrist and the kings of the North, South and East will begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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