John n Claudia Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2020 A couple months ago, I was encouraged to reexamine my beliefs and question my every assumption about what would happen during the last few years before Jesus returns. I spent much of this time in prayer, asking God for wisdom and insight and searching the scriptures to see what they have to say about this time. During my studies, I realized that Jesus returning as a thief is not a problem for a pre-tribulation rapture because Jesus returns as a thief without any warning to rapture his church. Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier. In contrast with this, the post-tribulation rapture theory has a problem because Jesus has not yet returned as a thief when people are not expecting Him. As an experiment, I asked a dozen people, most of whom know nothing about the Bible, what will happen at Armageddon. Eleven of them started out by saying that was the time Jesus would return. The one who did not start out that way said it is a battle of all the armies of the world. When I asked if anything else would happen at that time, he then said "Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody." I know this is a small sample size, but I am confident that this is representative and Jesus returning at a time when the armies of the world are gathering in the plains of Megiddo would not surprise anybody. This means that you can't have a post-tribulation rapture and have Jesus returning as a thief, when nobody is expecting Him, in order to fight the Battle of Armageddon. Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon. Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, John n Claudia said: A couple months ago, I was encouraged to reexamine my beliefs and question my every assumption about what would happen during the last few years before Jesus returns. I spent much of this time in prayer, asking God for wisdom and insight and searching the scriptures to see what they have to say about this time. During my studies, I realized that Jesus returning as a thief is not a problem for a pre-tribulation rapture because Jesus returns as a thief without any warning to rapture his church. Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier. In contrast with this, the post-tribulation rapture theory has a problem because Jesus has not yet returned as a thief when people are not expecting Him. As an experiment, I asked a dozen people, most of whom know nothing about the Bible, what will happen at Armageddon. Eleven of them started out by saying that was the time Jesus would return. The one who did not start out that way said it is a battle of all the armies of the world. When I asked if anything else would happen at that time, he then said "Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody." I know this is a small sample size, but I am confident that this is representative and Jesus returning at a time when the armies of the world are gathering in the plains of Megiddo would not surprise anybody. This means that you can't have a post-tribulation rapture and have Jesus returning as a thief, when nobody is expecting Him, in order to fight the Battle of Armageddon. Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon. Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion? Jesus returning during the war of Armegeddon is consistent with a post trib rapture because the tribulation of the saints started 42 months before Armegeddon and ends with Christ's coming. PS, if anyone is doing as Jesus commanded them then his coming would not be a surprise to them. It would only be a surprise to those who didn't listen to him. https://biblehub.com/kjv/mark/13-36.htm Edited August 22, 2020 by Shilohsfoal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2020 PS. According to scripture the first resurrection is of those who were killed for testifying of Christ and who did not worship the beast or recieve its mark. https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-4.htm It's going to be kinda hard for you to convince me that you will be raptured before the dead in Christ rise at the first resurrection of those who are killed during the tribulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John n Claudia Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 53 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said: Jesus returning during the war of Armegeddon is consistent with a post trib rapture because the tribulation of the saints started 42 months before Armegeddon and ends with Christ's coming. PS, if anyone is doing as Jesus commanded them then his coming would not be a surprise to them. It would only be a surprise to those who didn't listen to him. Shilohsfoal, I agree that the Great Tribulation starts 42 months before Jesus returns and this will be a time of trouble for both the Jews and the (capital C) Church. I also agree that those who listen to His voice will not be deceived and they will not be surprised when Jesus does return. My point was that everybody, especially the nonbelievers "know" that Jesus is coming at Armageddon. Since everybody "knows" this, Jesus returning then will not surprise anyone. Jesus can't come as a thief when nobody is expecting Him if he comes when there are armies waiting for Him and everybody all around the world is expecting Him. As far as the rapture is concerned, I am very much in the post-tribulation camp with one rapture where the dead in Christ rise first. All of this happens 42 months after the start of the Great Tribulation and 43 months after the Abomination that causes desolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,774 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 318 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) There are three areas in God's Word where the description of being "caught up" appear. The first of these is in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 in which a certain individual is caught up to heaven where he is shown things to holy to relate, but then later relates his experience to Paul on earth. The second on which the rapture theory is based is in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in which the saints are caught up to the Lord in heaven. The third area is where a newborn male child from a woman who has been in travail is caught up to the Lord in heaven in Revelation 12:5, but is then later seen being warred upon by the dragon on the earth in Revelation 12:17. With two of the three descriptions from the Lord showing those caught up to Him in heaven indicating a spiritual ascension where the individuals still remain on the earth, is it then likely that the description in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in which the saints are caught up to the Lord in the heavens is also is spiritual ascension and attention with the Lord, rather than some sort of basic removal from the earth? Edited August 22, 2020 by luigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John n Claudia Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 Luigi, In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul says that he does not know if the person was caught up bodily or spiritually. This indicates that either interpretation could be correct and that Paul believed that at some point in time, people would be bodily "caught up". Revelation 12 tells the story of events of the last days from the perspective of the Jewish nation. The woman clothed in the sun is the Jews and the child is Jesus. At the end of His earthly ministry, we see Jesus ascending into Heaven in Acts 1:9, and this is what is being described in Revelation 12:5. With regard to revelation 12:17, the dragon is not warring with the child that was caught up to heaven. The text says that the dragon is making war on the rest of, or, the other children of the woman. This means that one of these events is a bodily ascension and both of these support the idea of a bodily ascension. Since both of these support a bodily ascension, it seems likely that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 should also support a bodily ascension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted August 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 771 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,938 Content Per Day: 3.06 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2020 The wise virgins is a blatant evidence that they are raptured to the Feast of the Lamb n the foolish left behind n yelled "Lord Looord open to us", there is no sign of Armageddon battle here ??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John n Claudia Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/04/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 R. Hartono, I had not considered that the parable of the wise and foolish virgins gave evidence that the rapture would occur after the Antichrist defeated all of his earthly enemies at the Battle of Armageddon. I will have to take a closer look at this and the other parables Jesus told about His return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,629 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 12 hours ago, John n Claudia said: A couple months ago, I was encouraged to reexamine my beliefs and question my every assumption about what would happen during the last few years before Jesus returns. I spent much of this time in prayer, asking God for wisdom and insight and searching the scriptures to see what they have to say about this time. During my studies, I realized that Jesus returning as a thief is not a problem for a pre-tribulation rapture because Jesus returns as a thief without any warning to rapture his church. Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier. The whole time period is not 'tribulation'. GT is cut short from the end of the week per Matt 24, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Post trib is pre-end of the week. Coming as a thief is a problem. "For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief;" - 1 Thess 5 Jesus comes as a thief to those in darkness. Pretrib always cites this. Why? Because they are in darkness. "But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief" 12 hours ago, John n Claudia said: In contrast with this, the post-tribulation rapture theory has a problem because Jesus has not yet returned as a thief when people are not expecting Him. As an experiment, I asked a dozen people, most of whom know nothing about the Bible, what will happen at Armageddon. Eleven of them started out by saying that was the time Jesus would return. The one who did not start out that way said it is a battle of all the armies of the world. When I asked if anything else would happen at that time, he then said "Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody." I know this is a small sample size, but I am confident that this is representative and Jesus returning at a time when the armies of the world are gathering in the plains of Megiddo would not surprise anybody. This means that you can't have a post-tribulation rapture and have Jesus returning as a thief, when nobody is expecting Him, in order to fight the Battle of Armageddon. Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon. Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion? You're going to gather fact from mankind and override the scriptures? What kind of nonsense is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2020 Jesus said his coming would be as in the days of Noah. He said they were eating and drinking, marrying as any other time, till the day that Noah shut the door and the flood came and took them all away. They didn't know anything till it was to late. As for Noah and his family. Noah was doing as God had instructed him and Noah was saved. Noah even knew beforehand what day it would start raining. You say everyone knows. Do you know what day it will start raining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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