7 year tribulation and year of wrath

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

The real problem pretrib has is that most don't realize that there are two raptures. The Church is raptured pretrib and are in heaven before the seals are opened which begins the 70th week of Daniel. We can see that in Rev 4 and Rev 5

Because of " “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things." and 24 elders? 

Where is the actual descriptive language e.g.,

"the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them "

"We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;"

If you look at 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 you can see these pretrib rapture verses contain attributes that do not allow for a covert action. No secret pretrib action is remotely plausible.

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Matt 24 and Rev 14, He is coming to rapture the 12 tribes across the earth. We know this is true because there are 144,000 first fruits of that harvest. We can prove that the harvest occurred and that they were the 12 tribes because they are SINGING THE SONG OF MOSES in Rev 15.

There is no timing in Rev 14. I'm not disagreeing but there is no proof for when, e.g.,

"These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation"

" for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed."

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

"28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.d 27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven."

As to when the 144,000 are taken off the earth all we have is speculation. I agree with the coming of Jesus as the timing but I can't prove it.

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

All believers will be removed from the earth by the 6th seal as they are not appointed to wrath. Only the nation of Israel (those that flee to a place of protection) and unbelievers go through the wrath of God. Therefore, no believers experience the wrath of God. 

Agree.

[The Light]

25 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

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If you look at 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 you can see these pretrib rapture verses contain attributes that do not allow for a covert action. No secret pretrib action is remotely plausible.

As I said there are two raptures. The pretribulation rapture of the Church is 1 Thes 4 and the pre wrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth is 1 Cor 15.

 

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"28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

You always want to forget about this verse which says that we will escape ALL THESE THINGS and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

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"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.d 27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven."

This is the gathering that occurs at the 6th seal when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The 12 tribes are gathered from the earth and the Church is gathered from heaven where they will be as they were raptured pretrib before the seals were opened.

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As to when the 144,000 are taken off the earth all we have is speculation. I agree with the coming of Jesus as the timing but I can't prove it.

All we know is that they will be in heaven before the 6th seal is opened but will not be in heaven until the 70th week of Daniel begins. 

 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

No, no, no...the timing is based on events, not verses. Stumbling upon the truth is not the same as understanding. I agree here but this does not bequeath license to conclude a strict chronology in the bulk of the text.

Prove this " before any part of the 70th week. " with evidence. 

That assumes the trumps begin at the 7th seal. They do not. 

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

This is all that's said about the 7th seal.

"And I saw..." Is not synonymous with, "Because of this..." Correlation does not equal causation has never been more axiomatic than right here.

I concede it's a possibility...but it's not proven here.

 

 

Humbug. This has to be the oddest rationalization I have ever heard. 

John doesn't start anything. This is just a symptom of the doctrine of inaccuracy  born from pretrib's flailing about.

Prove  "God is calling the entire church age as "great tribulation"".  So much contradicts this.  So come on...give us evidence for this solution.

One must understand the book as a whole, to understand correctly each scenario. 

¹And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [Note that the book is written WITHIN: that means inside the book, exclusive of the seals. The seals are there to protect what is written inside.]

 

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?   [Notice that it is the BOOK that is emphasized, not the seals.]

 

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [Again note it is the book that is emphasized over the seals.]

 

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. [This verse is a key: The book can only be opened and read AFTER the seals are opened, but what is most important is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. Note what this does not say: that no man was found worthy to open the seals. Are you getting the picture? Why is this book so important? God chose not to show John line upon line when the book was opened; but we can easily know: it gets opened as soon as all seals are opened. But you are free not to believe this, because it is not written in so many words. I think we will find, when we get to heaven, that the book contains the entire 70th week. That is what is written inside the book. ]

 

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.  [Once again, it is the book listed first, for emphasis. Why would God do this? I think it is obvious: to show us that after the seals are opened, the book gets opened.]

Feel free to knock everything I write. You do a good job with that. But when we all get to heaven and you find out I was correct, I will then expect a high 5?

That assumes the trumps begin at the 7th seal. They do not. 

Hmmm.  

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Case closed. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

It absolutely does. Whether some are playing church or not born again at the time makes no difference. Your own words admit there are trib saints and saints who must face warfare against the beast. These would be saints that have come to Christ in the last week.

If saints in the last week have to battle the beast they are in the wrath of God. A contradiction unique to the doctrine. No other eschatology refutes it's own doctrine in this area in such a spectacularly ridiculous fashion. 

If saints come out of GT then according to pretrib those saints have been in the wrath of God. The doctrine says there are tribulation saints. By the words of the doctrine those endure God's wrath; but pretrib says we do not endure God's wrath.

My friend, WHY will their be "tribulation saints?" The answer is very simple: because they were not prepared when the rapture took place, so were left behind.  On the other hand, we can also say because God has great mercy: even though they missed the rapture, God will still allow them into heaven, as seen in Rev. 15. 

Just to straighten out your thinking: It is God's will those left behind are in His wrath? He has been warning people for many years to get ready for Christ's coming. It is certainly not going to be God's "fault" that some are left behind. But neither is God going to hold back His wrath because some did not make it up in the rapture. Neither can I find any scripture where God holds back His wrath in some certain area where there are saints. He may, but it is not written. If saints are on ships when the sea turns to blood, they will die - it is written. But they will end up in heaven.

Face it, my friend: BROAD is the way that misses the rapture. Narrow is the way for thos caught up. Many are going to be left behind. It is scripture. And the first thing they will face being left behind is Paul's sudden destruction.

Our job is very clear: we must work while the fields are ripe. The day will come when harvest time is over.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Joel isn't recording chronology in the 1st chapter, he's relating existing conditions. The A of D has passed, the trees are burned and all the green grass is gone. The vision he received is placed before the day of the Lord; the only time aspect in chapter 1 and that day is near.

¹⁵ Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

¹⁶ Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

¹⁷ The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.

¹⁸ How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

²⁰ The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

 

Is it not possible that in verses 16-20 Joel is jumping ahead to write what will happen IN the day of the Lord? 

On the other hand, who is to say that Joel was not writing about HIS time, that there really was locusts that ate the harvest, and then drought and fire that burned the pastures - and the Holy Spirit hinting that these verses may well also fit the coming day of the Lord in our future? We should always run any theory from the OT through the filter of the NEW. John makes his chronology very clear. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Not what I asked and not an answer to the problem.

Not the point. You and the pretrib cabal don't care if millions are appointed to wrath as long as it's not them and you. Pretrib literally says saints are appointed to wrath when the scripture says they are not.

For your doctrine to wax uncontradictory no saints can come out of GT nor can any be on earth to face war against the beast. You have said it's all the wrath of God so in order for it to work either no saints can be in it or come out of it or you're wrong about it being wrath.

But that's only for pretrib. All the other saints who come out of GT or are left to battle the beast are in God's wrath according to pretrib. Shameful.

If you are not appointed to wrath, why are other believers?

None will be left. They only ones left will be the rebels. I see very few surviving the wrath of God. 

Oh...so I don't want God unless I'm a pretrib believer? And I don't want an escape? Why is shaming a part of your teaching repertoire? You do that a lot. Terrible behavior. 

 

YOU WROTE:  But throws countless of their own family into the very wrath which they themselves escape. Can a doctrine be any more uncaring?

I WROTE:  For almost 2000 years the church has been warning people that they must be born again - that one day Christ will return, and people not born again will be left behind. 

 

YOU WROTE: Not what I asked and not an answer to the problem. 

What is it you doubt? Do you doubt the catching up? It is written plainly. 
Do you doubt only those in Christ will be caught up? It is plainly written.
Do you doubt that untold millions will be left behind? Again it is written.

It IS what you asked and it is the only answer God gives us. MILLIONS or BILLIONS will be left behind. It is not God's fault. He has planned a way of escape open to ALL.  I wonder, do you have close family that is not born again? You can force them to accept Jesus! But what you can do is pray. Did you not know, if a saint prays diligently for a loved one, Jesus will catch them on the way to hell and give them another chance. Our prayers are VERY powerful!

Sorry, but you cannot UNDO what is written because it does not seem fair.  There is going to be a rapture, pretrib, and billions will be left behind. All you or I can do is try to get a few more into the fold before that time comes. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not the point. You and the pretrib cabal don't care if millions are appointed to wrath as long as it's not them and you. Pretrib literally says saints are appointed to wrath when the scripture says they are not.

For your doctrine to wax uncontradictory no saints can come out of GT nor can any be on earth to face war against the beast. You have said it's all the wrath of God so in order for it to work either no saints can be in it or come out of it or you're wrong about it being wrath.

But that's only for pretrib. All the other saints who come out of GT or are left to battle the beast are in God's wrath according to pretrib. Shameful.

If you are not appointed to wrath, why are other believers?

None will be left. They only ones left will be the rebels. I see very few surviving the wrath of God. 

Oh...so I don't want God unless I'm a pretrib believer? And I don't want an escape? Why is shaming a part of your teaching repertoire? You do that a lot. Terrible behavior. 

 

What do you mean, "battle the Beast?" The ONLY way saints will defeat the beast is what is written:

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is how anyone can defeat the Beast: refuse his mark and image and be beheaded. 

In case you missed it, neither I nor any other believer in pretrib can change what is written: billions are going to be left behind to face the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. Why do you think Jesus called it the "great tribulation" and greater than any other time on earth? It matters little if billions don't believe its coming. Their unbelief will not stop it. I don't know why you imagine you can, but somehow rearranging Revelation to fit your theory.

Just to keep things straight, where is that scripture about not appointed to wrath? If you notice, it is in a RAPTURE passage. I didn't put it there, PAUL DID. It is absolute truth, God is not going to set any appointments for those caught up in the rapture.  His appointments are for those left behind. Not stop and think for a moment: at the moment of the rapture, ALL born again people will be caught up!  In other words, are there going to be any saints at that moment left behind? NO! All born again people will be caught up. So your theory is bogus. God is not leaving saints behind. 

However, God in His great mercy will allow anyone at that time to turn to Him - such as the 144,000. And without a doubt, they will bring in millions. But this is mercy, not wrath. However, wrath is written so MUST take place. Neither you nor I can change what is written. 

You have said it's all the wrath of God so in order for it to work either no saints can be in it or come out of it or you're wrong about it being wrath.  Are you going to rewrite Revelation to fit your theory? Good luck with that! 

Please answer, WHO ARE THOSE who defeat the beast and show up in heaven in Rev. 15? How did they get to heaven if they were not trusting in God - as in a saint? 

All the other saints who come out of GT or are left to battle the beast are in God's wrath according to pretrib. Shameful.  Are you calling Rev. 15:1 shameful? They just came out of GT and defeated the Beasts by losing their head. I did not write it - John did. Just so you know, WHY were they their at that time? Why were they in the beast's kingdom? Only one reason: they were not born again at the time of the rapture. 

If you are not appointed to wrath, why are other believers?  Very simple: at the time of the rapture, they will not be born again, so will be left behind. 

None will be left.  John disagrees: sheep and goats are left.

Look, I did not write Luke 21:36: it is GOD'S book. It is HIS escape plan. It is open for all until the rapture closes that door. If you imagine you will be here to face the Beast, that tells me you don't believe in God's escape plan. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. It was given to him to make war with the saints and overcome them. Just not you and the other pretribbers. That group is better than than those poor souls.

Whoa back! Who ARE "those poor souls?" WHY are they there in the war on the saints to begin with? It is simple: they were not born again at the rapture. Perhaps that is your fault and my fault, because we did not tell them about Jesus. But perhaps some of them were told but were just not interested.  I hope you finally get this straight: saints will be overcome because they BECAME saints after the rapture. AT the time of the rapture (God's escape plan) they were left behind. They were not "saints" at that time. 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

All you ever have is rhetoric and inapt analogy. 

It seems all you do is complain about the poor saints being killed by the Beast. If you feel that bad about them, feel free to become one of them. Ignore God's escape plan. 

In case you missed it, billions will be thrown into the lake of fire at the great, white throne judgment. And there will be nothing you or I can do about it. Without a doubt, God gave each of them chance after chance.  All we can do is preach the gospel and believe SOME will come in.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems all you do is complain about the poor saints being killed by the Beast. If you feel that bad about them, feel free to become one of them. Ignore God's escape plan. 

In case you missed it, billions will be thrown into the lake of fire at the great, white throne judgment. And there will be nothing you or I can do about it. Without a doubt, God gave each of them chance after chance.  All we can do is preach the gospel and believe SOME will come in.

That's cold bro.

You're okay with billions in torment forever? I'm not. I'm believing in the mercy of God and the sure justice of Jesus the great judge.

You see, the blood of Jesus shed on the cross is retroactive to the foundation of the world. The sins of everyone are covered by the shed blood of our King and Lord. According to our King if a person feeds a hungry person they gain access to His Father's house. 

I don't care who makes it into the house of my God as long as they do. Eternal torment is too horrible fate to wish on anyone; even politicians and tax collectors, two groups I dislike as much as bankers and lawyers.

I don't want anyone in the lake of fire.