The Jesus you thought you knew...

[JohnD]

On 9/17/2020 at 1:10 PM, teddyv said:

When someone speaks from the prophetic (which I would include as "from the Spirit"), I recall the ordinance that it should be tested and vetted by the elders of the congregation. (I can't recall a verse for this, so maybe I'm mistaken). Regardless, I can't see how anyone here is able to verify something like that in the context of an internet forum. 

[JohnD]

Otherwise it is all too easy to simply shop around for "elders" you agree with

for the answer / interpretation you want. This is resulting from the divided and fractured

splits in the Church we've long accepted as normal (denominationalism etc).

Behold the true Lord's Prayer:

John 17 (AV)
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Look around.

Does anyone see oneness in the Church?

It's because we placed man and human tradition in authority over Bible interpretation.

Satan has easy access to human reason / perception / so-called wisdom / etc. which Jesus summed up as "the things that be of man" in Matthew 16:23.

[Faithwilldo]

On 9/13/2020 at 4:22 PM, JohnD said:

Matthew 7:21–23 (AV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

The Jesus I know is kind, patient, long-suffering and merciful.  But more importantly, He is love and He never fails.  We are His creation and He will work to save each and every one of us.  After all, that is why He came to us:

1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

But what is Christ saving us from though???

He did not come to save us from hell because hell is not the penalty of sin. 

Death is the penalty of sin but He did not come to save us from paying that penalty.

Christ came to give us new life after we pay the penalty of death. 

Here is the only single verse description of the Gospel of Christ that I have found in scripture:

John 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

From our payment of death, Christ will resurrect us and give us life more abundantly.  That "abundant" life He came to give us is a life free from sin and a restored relationship with the Father.   

As for judgment, all mankind must be judged because we have all sinned.  And since we have all sinned, we all must die. 

Paul's conversion "typed" the pathway to salvation (also shown in many other places in scripture).  This is the pathway that takes us from "death" to "life".

1Tim 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.  

Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road.  That is where his Old Man received a blow from the sword of Christ.  But the blow did not kill his Old Man.  His deadly wound was healed (Rev 13:3). From there, He had to be lead by the hand (the blind leading the blind) because Christ left him spiritually blind and unable to know the Truth.  Upon arriving in Damascus, Paul laid in bed for three days which represents Paul's spiritual condition which occurred from his having "fallen away" (the sin that leads to death).  But because Paul was "chosen" from the foundation of the world, Christ came to Paul a second time and gave him the Latter Rain of the Spirit.  It is at this point that Paul's Old Man begins dying which is what the Law demands (the death we must pay).  Also at this time, the New Man in Christ is born within Paul.  Paul is now on the pathway that leads to life and part of that pathway is judgment.  Judgment is a necessary part of salvation because through judgment, we learn the righteousness of God.  

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The believers (the "many") who were not chosen by Christ will remain in their "fallen away" condition until they physically die.  From there, they will be resurrected in the final age with the unbelievers.  There they will face judgment and will ultimately travel the same pathway that leads to life in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The verses that you quoted in your post are referring to the believers who were not chosen.  They remained in a state of spiritual death after having "fallen away" to return to "works" for salvation.  That is what happens when one "falls away" from the truth.  It happens to all believers after they first come to Christ.  It is part of the pathway that leads to destruction that we all must follow.  When we fall away, we come under the Law again.  And because we are under the Law and because we break the Law, Christ says that we "practice lawlessness".  He then sends us away to judgment to learn righteousness.

Matthew 7:21–23 (AV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that practice lawlessness.

Christ is mankind's savior and He never fails.  He has a plan to save each and everyone of us.  He is saving the First Fruits of His harvest in this present age and He will save all who remain in the final age.  Then this verse will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Our salvation is the work of Christ.  It is not our work nor do we contribute to His work.  Even our confession of faith is a work of Christ within us.  He causes all things to happen as He wills it to happen.  Our "will" to reject Him is powerless when Christ come to us.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

This is the Jesus I know.

Joe

Edited September 19, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[teddyv]

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Otherwise it is all too easy to simply shop around for "elders" you agree with

for the answer / interpretation you want. This is resulting from the divided and fractured

splits in the Church we've long accepted as normal (denominationalism etc).

[snip]

Look around.

Does anyone see oneness in the Church?

It's because we placed man and human tradition in authority over Bible interpretation.

Satan has easy access to human reason / perception / so-called wisdom / etc. which Jesus summed up as "the things that be of man" in Matthew 16:23.

Isn't this cynicism? Where does that come from? If our elders are chosen I accept it's by God's ordaining. Should I not accept their authority?

[Faithwilldo]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

Isn't this cynicism? Where does that come from? If our elders are chosen I accept it's by God's ordaining. Should I not accept their authority?

I've read that there are over 2000 different denominational churches.  How could this be if everyone is reading from the same scripture???  The reason for this diversity of so called "truth" is because "the blind are leading the blind".  If one has been given "eyes that can see", then one can see that there is only one truth. 

Why would God allow this to happen to the "called out ones"?  Answer:  He doesn't allow it to happen, He causes it to happen!  

Isa 28: 10-12  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  12  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Scripture is written in spiritual language utilizing Hebrew and Greek.  It cannot be understood literally.  The "words" used by Christ have different meanings than what "man's wisdom teaches". 

1Cor 2:13  These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Christ's words are spirit and carry a spiritual meaning:

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We understand scripture by comparing spiritual words with how those same spiritual words are used elsewhere in scripture. 

Also keep in mind that Christ uses the physical to teach about the spiritual. 

For example:

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword?   Literally, that is what He is saying.  So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false.  There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.   So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else? 

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood.  Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying. 

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message.  Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword.  To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. 

Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God.  So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.  

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52.  When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man).  The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven.  This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword). 

You should not accept the authority of the blind leaders of the church.  Christ is our head, we are the body.  All truth comes from Christ and that is what we should be praying for and searching for:

Luke 11:9-13  And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.  10  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  11  If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?  12  Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?  13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? 

Prov 2:1-5  My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding;  yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. 

Joe

 

 

[teddyv]

There may be over 200 denominations, but we do have to allow for denominations that pertain to specific languages or people groups, which would cut down on a lot of denominations. My own denomination has seen it's fair share of divisions over the years, going way back to doctrinal squabbles over what seem to be rather banal points. They were important to people back then, but often are not anymore.

Almost every church holds to several basic creeds. I sometimes liken it to the parts of the body illustration where denominations can represent different parts of the body. It's good to have our more charismatic brethren that bring a certain element of worship. My denomination, though smaller, could never be mistaken for charismatic, but has contributed much to theology and has a strong affinity for education of our children, as well as academia.

[Faithwilldo]

41 minutes ago, teddyv said:

There may be over 200 denominations, but we do have to allow for denominations that pertain to specific languages or people groups, which would cut down on a lot of denominations. My own denomination has seen it's fair share of divisions over the years, going way back to doctrinal squabbles over what seem to be rather banal points. They were important to people back then, but often are not anymore.

Almost every church holds to several basic creeds. I sometimes liken it to the parts of the body illustration where denominations can represent different parts of the body. It's good to have our more charismatic brethren that bring a certain element of worship. My denomination, though smaller, could never be mistaken for charismatic, but has contributed much to theology and has a strong affinity for education of our children, as well as academia.

I understand where you are coming from because I have experienced a great deal of divisions and splits within some of the denominations I have attended many years ago.  But I can honestly say by "looking back" that NONE of what they taught was even close to the truth of Jesus Christ.  

The body of Christ is one just as Christ and the Father are one.  If the body is not one, then the body is not of Christ.  

Here is what Christ says about the many who have been called out:

Matt 13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

When we are first called out to follow Christ, Christ leaves us spiritually blind and carnally mind.  Satan then quickly moves in and deceives us (parable of the ten virgins & parable of the wheat & the tares).  The bread we eat is fully leavened with Satan's lies.  I don't know of any mainstream doctrine that is true.  Because of their spiritual blindness and Satan's deceptions, many different denominations exist.  None of the denominations have any spiritual understanding.  The wolves are still in control and will stay in control because it is all part of God's plan to save mankind.  

But for the Elect's sake (who are no spiritually different when called out), Christ will come to them a second time and heal their spiritual vision so that they can come out from Satan's deceptions.  This event is the second coming of Christ when He brings the Latter Rain of the Spirit to a fallen away believer who is also "chosen". 

Here is one of the places in scripture where this truth is taught:

Mark 8:15-21  And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.  16  And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.  17  And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?  18  Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?  19  When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.  20  And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.  21  And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language.  At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind.  They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them.  After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question:  “How is it that ye do not understand”?  No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses. 

Mark 8:22-25  And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.  23  And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.  24  And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.  25  After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did.   In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man. 

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city.  These actions by Christ spiritually represent the time when an unbeliever is "called" out from the world and into the Church.  Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands.  This is the Early Rain of the Spirit when Christ first calls us out from the world.  These actions by Christ occur as the blind man is looking down and they symbolize the carnal aspect of the blind man’s healing.  After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees.  "Walking as trees" is a symbol for man's truth that comes from the earth (our carnal nature).  It is not Christ's truth which only comes from heaven.  The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.  This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church.  It is the time of the "early rain" or Paul's Damascus road experience.  At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted.  Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.       

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”.  This second healing represents the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer.  The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing.  From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Chosen believer.  He was first Called Out from the world and then he was shown to be one of God's Chosen.  He received the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit so as to start producing the spiritual fruit Christ demands of His harvest of mankind.

Jam 5:7-8  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.  8  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.  

Joe 

[teddyv]

22 minutes ago, Faithwilldo said:

I understand where you are coming from because I have experienced a great deal of divisions and splits within some of the denominations I have attended many years ago.  But I can honestly say by "looking back" that NONE of what they taught was even close to the truth of Jesus Christ.  

The body of Christ is one just as Christ and the Father are one.  If the body is not one, then the body is not of Christ.  

That seems to overly broad-brush the problem, and it is probably influenced by your own experiences as you mentioned Without knowing what denominations you've been part of, I find it somewhat unlikely and a bit harsh that none taught the truth of Christ.

I've sat in a Lutheran, Reformed, Baptist, Anglican, Evangelical Free, Pentecostal and non-denominational chuches and the gospel of Jesus was preached. This is my experience so it informs my view, of course. I'm sure there are things I can find in all of them that differ from my tradition, but so what? I feel pretty uncomfortable in charismatic Pentecostal church, but that's my problem, not theirs. I see value in how they express their faith and worship, I just don't think it's of less value than what other denominational traditions can bring (I'm of course not including groups like JWs or Mormons).

[Faithwilldo]

31 minutes ago, teddyv said:

hat seems to overly broad-brush the problem, and it is probably influenced by your own experiences as you mentioned Without knowing what denominations you've been part of, I find it somewhat unlikely and a bit harsh that none taught the truth of Christ.

I've sat in a Lutheran, Reformed, Baptist, Anglican, Evangelical Free, Pentecostal and non-denominational chuches and the gospel of Jesus was preached. This is my experience so it informs my view, of course. I'm sure there are things I can find in all of them that differ from my tradition, but so what? I feel pretty uncomfortable in charismatic Pentecostal church, but that's my problem, not theirs. I see value in how they express their faith and worship, I just don't think it's of less value than what other denominational traditions can bring (I'm of course not including groups like JWs or Mormons).

Most people can't believe that the churches are eating the fully leavened loaf of bread.  At first, I had difficulty believing it too but only at first.  I used to be an end-time prophecy teacher in my last church that I attended in 2004/2005.  That was the hardest subject to for me to admit that I was wrong about.  I have since learned that all end-time prophecy is only teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion.   The "end-time" that Christ is teaching about is the end-time of our carnal nature (Old Man).  All end-time prophecy is personally relevant to each of God's Elect today just as it was for those who lived during the time of Paul.  When the Elect experience the Latter Rain, death and destruction occurs to the Old Man but at the same time, the birth of the New Man occurs.  However, it's a long road to get to that point and it takes most of a life time.  We must wait on the Early and Latter Rain to fall upon us.  This is the patience of the saints mentioned in scripture.  It takes time to make a new child of God. 

The verse below says that "the ends of the ages are come" upon God's Elect now.  Most of mankind will have to wait until the literal end of the final age when all mankind will be saved.  The Elect, being the First Fruits, are blessed to experience their end-time now.

1Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

And just as Christ said in Matthew 24, the generation that He was speaking to would not pass away until all the events were fulfilled.  It was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it has continued being fulfilled with all the Elect since that time.  End-time prophecy has nothing to do with all the many things that are commonly taught. 

Also, for correct understanding of scripture, one must know that salvation is a pathway that leads to conversion.  Paul's conversion is the pattern everyone else must follow to be saved. 

1Tim 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.  

The pathway involves a lot of bad things like being deceived by Satan, falling away and become a worse creature than before.  Most believe that those verses are NOT written for them but only about other people. Christ said that mankind doesn't live (salvation) just by bread but by every word that God speaks. 

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When Christ says we will be deceived, then everyone is deceived.  When He says that we will fall away and spiritually die, then everyone that will fall away and die.  There is a pathway that Christ takes us along that will eventually lead to Him and salvation.  But that pathway is long and full of tribulation.  We all must travel the path that leads to destruction first before we can travel the path that leads to life.  God is not a respecter of persons.

Lastly, one of the keys to understanding scripture is to realize that Christ is teaching us about what happens to us spiritually (between our ears).  He uses physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.  Our carnal minds only want to understand those things as being "out there" and not "within" ourselves.

Joe    

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Most people can't believe that the churches are eating the fully leavened loaf of bread.  At first, I had difficulty believing it too but only at first.  I used to be an end-time prophecy teacher in my last church that I attended in 2004/2005.  That was the hardest subject to for me to admit that I was wrong about.  I have since learned that all end-time prophecy is only teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion.   The "end-time" that Christ is teaching about is the end-time of our carnal nature (Old Man).  All end-time prophecy is personally relevant to each of God's Elect today just as it was for those who lived during the time of Paul.  When the Elect experience the Latter Rain, death and destruction occurs to the Old Man but at the same time, the birth of the New Man occurs.  However, it's a long road to get to that point and it takes most of a life time.  We must wait on the Early and Latter Rain to fall upon us.  This is the patience of the saints mentioned in scripture.  It takes time to make a new child of God. 

The verse below says that "the ends of the ages are come" upon God's Elect now.  Most of mankind will have to wait until the literal end of the final age when all mankind will be saved.  The Elect, being the First Fruits, are blessed to experience their end-time now.

1Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

And just as Christ said in Matthew 24, the generation that He was speaking to would not pass away until all the events were fulfilled.  It was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it has continued being fulfilled with all the Elect since that time.  End-time prophecy has nothing to do with all the many things that are commonly taught. 

Also, for correct understanding of scripture, one must know that salvation is a pathway that leads to conversion.  Paul's conversion is the pattern everyone else must follow to be saved. 

1Tim 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.  

The pathway involves a lot of bad things like being deceived by Satan, falling away and become a worse creature than before.  Most believe that those verses are NOT written for them but only about other people. Christ said that mankind doesn't live (salvation) just by bread but by every word that God speaks. 

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When Christ says we will be deceived, then everyone is deceived.  When He says that we will fall away and spiritually die, then everyone that will fall away and die.  There is a pathway that Christ takes us along that will eventually lead to Him and salvation.  But that pathway is long and full of tribulation.  We all must travel the path that leads to destruction first before we can travel the path that leads to life.  God is not a respecter of persons.

Lastly, one of the keys to understanding scripture is to realize that Christ is teaching us about what happens to us spiritually (between our ears).  He uses physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.  Our carnal minds only want to understand those things as being "out there" and not "within" ourselves.

Joe    

This is quite possibly the worst misunderstanding of Scripture that I have ever seen!  It is complete and utter nonsense, from start to finish.

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The "end-time" that Christ is teaching about is the end-time of our carnal nature (Old Man).

There is not the tiniest piece of evidence for this egregious drivel.  You cannot just make things up from your imagination, then teach them as if they were truth.

James 3:1 (VW) My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

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When the Elect experience the Latter Rain, death and destruction occurs to the Old Man but at the same time, the birth of the New Man occurs.

Dreadful, absolutely dreadful!  Where do you get this nonsense from?  It bears no relation to what the Bible says.

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It takes time to make a new child of God.

No, it is done in an instant of time, when God makes someone born again.  Being born again is the INITIATORY experience for a Christian (just as it is in the physical realm), not the culmination of a long process in the life of a Christian!

Sanctification takes a lifetime, but, if you have not been born again, then you will not be sanctified either.

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The verse below says that "the ends of the ages are come" upon God's Elect now.  Most of mankind will have to wait until the literal end of the final age when all mankind will be saved.

Wrong again!  Most of mankind will be lost and go to hell; it is only a remnant who, by God's grace, will be saved.  Most go by the broad road that leads to destruction and only few go by the narrow road that leads to life.

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The pathway involves a lot of bad things like being deceived by Satan, falling away and become a worse creature than before.

What you describe here is an apostate - someone who knew the truths of the gospel, but rejected them (thus proving that he was not saved in the first place), and who can look forward to nothing but God's wrath and eternal torment in hell.

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When Christ says we will be deceived, then everyone is deceived.  When He says that we will fall away and spiritually die, then everyone that will fall away and die.  There is a pathway that Christ takes us along that will eventually lead to Him and salvation.  But that pathway is long and full of tribulation.  We all must travel the path that leads to destruction first before we can travel the path that leads to life.  God is not a respecter of persons.

I do not know whether you got this from some cult, or your own imagination, or a demon; but, it is completely anti-Christian.

Matt. 24:24 (WEB) For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.

Here is part of Robertson's Word Pictures comment on "if possible" here.

"if possible  (ε δυνατον), lead astray the very elect. The implication is that it is not possible."

Here is Darby's translation note on this verse.

"24:24  possible, (g-22)  'If possible' gives the purpose of the deceivers; 'if it were  possible' would be the judgment of the writer. It seems to me  simpler to take it as in text. It still implies 'it is not  possible.'"

Genuine Christians will NOT "fall away and spiritually die"!  We all start off (before becoming Christians, by the saving grace of God) spiritually dead, then, if God saves us, he makes us born again and alive in Christ.

You are teaching another gospel, with another Christ; and the word of God says that we are to regard such people as accursed.

Gal. 1:8,9 (KJV)

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.