The Bethel False Prophets

[GandalfTheWise]

A couple years ago, this site became extremely dysfunctional due to a handful of people (now permanently banned) who took it upon themselves to expose anyone and everyone that they believed was a wolf or heretic and well as to go after anyone who dared question them.  About 35 to 40 years ago, I was such a heretic-hunter myself so I fully understand the zeal, passion, and intensity such Christians have for defending the Truth and protecting the flock.  I also understand the delusion the enemy uses so that such heretic-hunters become so obsessed with rooting out problems that they start to believe most accusations they hear without regard to context or further investigation.  

Searching out errors and heresies and exposing them is addicting.  I know it well and had started to become obsessed with it.  What stopped my rush to madness was when a brother in Christ simply handed me a short booklet from a preacher I was condemning.  I'd been reading material about how the New Age movement was infiltrating the church.  During a Sunday School class, I made some disparaging comments about how a particular radio preacher was in error and misleading people.  The next week, someone in the class brought me a booklet from that preacher and just asked me to read it to see what I thought.  I enthusiastically started reading to find all the errors I'd been condemning.  What I read absolutely shocked me.  The materials I was reading about the New Age in the church had quoted from that very booklet.  I found that literally every quotation from that booklet was taken out of context.  I also found that the accuser accused this preacher of saying things that he specifically spoke out against in that very booklet in the next paragraph after one of the quotes.  I originally thought the accuser might have just made some mistakes or been sloppy so I got hold of a couple other books he quoted and attacked.  I learned that was his pattern.  He'd grab quotes out of context, make the assumption that the person he was attacking was hiding something, and then "interpret" what they said to prove they were a wolf.  In other words, he'd find a target, scour their writings and sermons for individual sentences to take out of context to "prove" they were spreading heresy and occultism.   I have little doubt that the accuser was sincere in his belief that his targets were unintentionally deluded and that he was sincerely ministering to them by publicly exposing their delusion.  However, good motives and sincerity do not make false accusations true.  

Another experience that lead me to realize I needed to really understand the big picture in any ministry was shortly after the PTL Club (the Bakkers) debacle.  I was teaching a Sunday school class and had soundly derided them and others for putting money ahead of the gospel and doing damage to many people.  After the class, our pastor came up to me and gently  told me about one person who was sitting in my class (and who never came back again).  He'd been a prayer counselor at PTL ministries for a few years both on the phone and for campers and visitors.  He'd been involved in a lot of effective ministry there and had a lot of good relationships with other ministers there.  When the arrests came down and everything was shut down, he and other counselors and ministers there were absolutely devastated by what had happened.   They not only lost their individual ministries there but suddenly had to all leave with no warning.  This was in the days of fixed landline numbers for phones and little e-mail so most of them lost touch with each other as they had to move.   I'd publicly dismissed and disparaged all the very real ministry that had quietly been going on outside of the public view.

A few years ago, when things got out of hand on this site, I started doing fact checking and research on various things and confronting a few things that probably legally fit the definition of libel (which includes not being true).  I found the same thing that had deluded me into being a heretic-hunter decades ago.  There are a number of websites and authors that basically do the same thing I saw decades ago.  The thing is that these accusers are passionate and compelling.  They present reams of supposed research that is little more than scouring books, sermons, articles, videos, and materials from their targets.  They properly "interpret" and selectively edit what they find to prove that their target is not a Christian and needs to be publicly exposed.  Once they've "proved" someone is a heretic, they move onto anyone that person has quoted or that has quoted that person to prove they are also heretics.   They then come up with inside jargon to label these people with various types of heresies.  "Oh, so and so?  They are an XYZ heretic."  They rarely look in detail to see what type of day to day ministry is really going on.

My first exposure to Bethel was when a few Christians I knew went out to Redding for some ministry training.  The big thing they brought back was a ministry of praying for people as they had opportunity to and God lead them.  Over the next months, if they thought God was leading them, they'd ask if they could pray for sales clerks in stores, waiters and waitresses, people they were sitting next to in a bus, etc.  By and large, the response from people was positive.  Many would share about struggles in their life.  A few talked about  things they'd never told anyone else.   Some had just had something serious happen in their life and were starting to ponder deep questions in life.  Some of these encounters resulted in answered prayers for specific things including a few healings.  Some encounters lead to the gospel being shared.  I suspect that type of thing probably is more reflective of what goes on there on a daily basis compared to questionable antics at times or a few individuals doing questionable things.

It's easy to look at questionable things and rush to absolute judgement.  It's a lot harder to really dig in to figure out what is really going on most of the the time.  Every ministry has flaws, warts, errors, and problems.  Every ministry has critics that rejoice in finding things to publicly and loudly disparage.  The key issue is whether or not most of the Christians involved in a ministry are spiritually growing.  I think what is going on in the day to day ministry in the masses of a church or ministry is the real test of what they are about.   All of us go through phases as Christians that we are later embarrassed about.  I'm embarrassed about my heretic-hunter days.  One of the most influential pastors I had got heavily involved in the "name-it claim-it" movement when he was a teen.  He prayed that God would heal his near-sightedness and smashed his glasses with a hammer to prove his faith.  It was a bit humbling when his non-Christian father had to buy him new glasses later.  Most Christians, ministries, and churches I've known have gone through immature phases like that as they are spiritually growing and sincerely done dumb and embarrassing things.  Those phases don't define us nor does God leave us alone to remain immature.  It is our long-term spiritual growth and transformation that is what really matters.

[NotAllThere]

Quote

 

“In a previous post I said that Bill Johnson was a proponent of the prosperity gospel and of the Toronto Blessing. Both things are heresy”

These are not arguments. These are unqualified accusations.

 

Which? That the TB and the so-called prosperity gospel are heresy? Or that Bill Johnson is a proponent of both?

If you can be clear about that, I'll be glad to provide evidence of either.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by NotAllThere

[NotAllThere]

58 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

A couple years ago, this site became extremely dysfunctional due to a handful of people (now permanently banned) who took it upon themselves to expose anyone...

I've been through something similar - but the Lord has put into my heart a love for God's people.

The fact that heresy hunters are toxic does not mean that there aren't wolves. If someone cites someone whom I, in all humilty and reverence, have deep misgivings about, I'll share it. 

I certainly would not recommend to anyone that they involve themselves with Bethel. I also would recommend staying away from Bill Johnson's teaching. I think they're either wolves or deeply misled. Either way - to be avoided.

 

[Paul James]

9 hours ago, Tristen said:

Maybe one day I will have a reason to do so investigate them for myself.

In the meantime;

1 – I did not engage in this conversation to learn about a ministry I've never heard of.

2 – It's intellectually lazy to make a claim, then send us to another source when we dare question your claim. And,

3 – This is your thread. You could have made it solid from the outset. Instead, you just expected everyone to take your claims at your word. Then doubled down for a time after being challenged.

 

 

All I am saying is that the prophecies "for the nation" are false, dreamed up by the individuals themselves, and God has not, nor ever at any time, sent them.

[Tristen]

11 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

Which? That the TB and the so-called prosperity gospel are heresy? Or that Bill Johnson is a proponent of both?

If you can be clear about that, I'll be glad to provide evidence of either.

All claims should be supported by arguments - especially claims against potential works of God.

You are welcome to provide the arguments if you feel led to do so - but that somewhat misses the point; i.e. my criticism that most claims in this thread are not properly supported by argument - and if we are going to criticise a ministry, that's really not good enough.

 

[Tristen]

8 hours ago, Paul James said:

All I am saying is that the prophecies "for the nation" are false, dreamed up by the individuals themselves, and God has not, nor ever at any time, sent them.

And all readers should uncritically accept your word on the topic - just because you are "saying"?

[Ozarkbound]

24 minutes ago, Tristen said:

And all readers should uncritically accept your word on the topic - just because you are "saying"?

You have made it clear that you are not interested in Bethel, and not inclined to check any of the info provided. You just love to argue.  Otherwise, you would have left this topic since you are so disinterested.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Ozarkbound

[JohnR7]

On 11/8/2020 at 8:55 PM, Paul James said:

All of the Bethel prophets said quite conclusively that God said that Donald Trump will have a second term.

None of them are backing down. I am actually surprised how many people believe that Trump is going to serve a second term. The evidence does not seem to indicate that. Although I understand the suggestion that the Kingdoms of the World are to become the Kingdom of God. So we are told the enemy will not be allowed to lie, cheat, steal and destroy any longer using the election process. 

Prophecy in the Bible is difficult to understand sometimes. We know that Jesus will rule and reign for 1,000 years during the Kingdom Age. The question is how do we go from the church age to the kingdom age. We were always taught there would be a rapture and then 7 years of tribulation. Then Jesus would return and set up His kingdom on the earth. 

[JohnR7]

On 11/12/2020 at 11:08 PM, Ozarkbound said:

The first red flag went up for me when I saw that their Pastor Bill Johnson  was a proponent of the Toronto blessing.

That "Toronto Blessing" thing could come on people very fast. I was praying for people at church during communion.  At the very end of the prayer time one women walked up to another. They just looked at each other and they started laughing. They did not see any difference between devoted prayer and the laughing thing where people would be rolling around on the floor. They use to call them holy rollers. I have seen a lot of people go down under the Spirit. But they do not roll around on the floor laughing as they do with the Toronto blessing. I remember oral roberts son on TV would be trying to sing a song of worship and praise but he could not worship God because that laughing thing came on him.  

 

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, Ozarkbound said:

You have made it clear that you are not interested in Bethel, and not inclined to check any of the info provided. You just love to argue.  Otherwise, you would have left this topic since you are so disinterested.

“You have made it clear that you are not interested in Bethel”

Correct.

 

“and not inclined to check any of the info provided”

Well – it's debatable as to whether or not the “info” was actually “info”, or just unsupported opinion – but ok, let's go with that.

 

“You just love to argue”

The logic fallacy you employ here is called an Appeal to Motive.

 

“Otherwise, you would have left this topic since you are so disinterested”

So I should shut-up and leave the conversation if my opinion doesn't fit the desired narrative of this thread? That's called bullying.

I am interested in whether or not it is appropriate to attack Christian ministry, and if we decide it is, what quality of arguments we employ. These are legitimate, reasonable concerns.