Child abuse...where is God's will in this?

[Dennis1209]

On 11/9/2020 at 2:53 PM, integrity said:

I just want to preface by saying I do believe God is loving and perfect. But I can't come to terms with this. I was born into a christian family, went to church all my life, and I dont know if it's just my culture...but no one talk about child abuse, as in calling attention to the world wide problem of it  and definitely no one prays over it fervently. I wonder what is our purpose as Christian's towards it? People are basically told to reproduce and fill the earth...what about the children in foster care or orphanages? This is a stumbling block for me. I used to pray fervently about the issue of all the children unloved in this world, but what to pray? And is there a point? My heart goes to pieces if I actually think about this problem because I question God. Will He supernaturally rescue those children from their horrific circumstance (starvation, beating, sexual, verbal abuse)? If not, what is the point? Children dont deserve any of that. I feel convicted to foster as soon as my babies get a bit older. But I look around and many of the Christians I know don't talk about it  no one at church brings it up for prayer. Barely anyone I know fosters. Idk lately I've been seeing how empty most Christian's are...they go to church obey Gods laws for purity but love and charity and caring for the parentless isnt on anyone's radar. Why doesn't God speak to us more about this? Please share your opinions on any or all of my questions. This is truly something that makes me so sick, because I was emotionally neglected as a child. I cannot fathom feeling unwanted and unloved on every front. No child should have to go through that.

Hello integrity,

I'll share my thoughts with you but; as I discuss this, I'd like for us to keep the following two verses in mind:

Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [Not a few things or somethings but; ALL things]

Proverbs 3:5 (KJV) Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

We can't just isolate it to horrible 'child abuse and neglect'. What about abortion, the Holocaust, human atrocities, pedophilia, a tornado wiping out a whole congregation during worship service, etc.? It all started with the fall of Adam & Eve, sin and death entered the world. Adam forfeited dominion over the earth because of sin and death. Satan became the 'god' of death and destruction, the prince and power of the air. He usurped and inherited dominion as the god of death over the whole earth.

We're rapidly approaching the end of this age; with family, society, morals and righteousness decaying at a rapid pace. Natural affection for traditional marriage and natural affection and love for their children has dissipated. That's our blessed hope; the soon return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is going to take back what is rightfully His. His original plan and purpose will be realized and implemented in the not to distant future. Everything will be set right.

2 Timothy 3:3 (KJV) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.  

Right now we see through a glass half darkly: 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There's many things we just don't understand at present. But we serve a fair and just God, we have faith in Him and trust. When I'm hurt by the loss of a loved one, I don't understand the wickedness occurring, or tragedy strikes; I try to bring the verse above [Proverbs 3: 5-6] to mind for comfort. 

 

[Ozarkbound]

29 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hello integrity,

I'll share my thoughts with you but; as I discuss this, I'd like for us to keep the following two verses in mind:

Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [Not a few things or somethings but; ALL things]

Proverbs 3:5 (KJV) Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

We can't just isolate it to horrible 'child abuse and neglect'. What about abortion, the Holocaust, human atrocities, pedophilia, a tornado wiping out a whole congregation during worship service, etc.? It all started with the fall of Adam & Eve, sin and death entered the world. Adam forfeited dominion over the earth because of sin and death. Satan became the 'god' of death and destruction, the prince and power of the air. He usurped and inherited dominion as the god of death over the whole earth.

We're rapidly approaching the end of this age; with family, society, morals and righteousness decaying at a rapid pace. Natural affection for traditional marriage and natural affection and love for their children has dissipated. That's our blessed hope; the soon return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is going to take back what is rightfully His. His original plan and purpose will be realized and implemented in the not to distant future. Everything will be set right.

2 Timothy 3:3 (KJV) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.  

Right now we see through a glass half darkly: 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There's many things we just don't understand at present. But we serve a fair and just God, we have faith in Him and trust. When I'm hurt by the loss of a loved one, I don't understand the wickedness occurring, or tragedy strikes; I try to bring the verse above [Proverbs 3: 5-6] to mind for comfort. 

 

Please tell me what good came from me being raped and abused for years starting at the age of 6? Can you not understand how telling someone that the bad things that happened to them were meant for good? The abusers said that too.

My family still blames me. They still expect me to forgive my mother who is not repentant and would hurt me more if I re-established contact with her. 

But she's your mother they say to guilt me into seeing and forgiving her. Doesn't the fact that she's my mother make it worse?

I wish people would stop isolating this verse from the chapter it is in. It leaves out the context. The chapter is about pre-destination. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ozarkbound

[JohnD]

7 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

As an abused child, I can not believe that my abuse was orchestrated by God. What a horrible thing to believe and teach. If it is God's will that children be raped, beaten, and murdered, he is not a God worthy of worship. 

You sound like one who is looking for an excuse not to believe in God or to punish God for what someone else did to you. Once again, I am also a child abuse victim. I never blamed God. God delivered me from that situation, has has apparently delivered you too (you survived it anyway). 

God doesn't orchestrate all things the way you said. He orchestrates what humanity does into the only good that can come of all sins (whether they meet with our expectations or not)... those who believe in Christ Jesus will be saved from the eternal hell humanity is otherwise ALREADY destined for (John 3:18).

You mischaracterized what I said and how God deals with all sin. God loves us so much he gave his only Son to save us.

[Ozarkbound]

45 minutes ago, JohnD said:

You sound like one who is looking for an excuse not to believe in God or to punish God for what someone else did to you. Once again, I am also a child abuse victim. I never blamed God. God delivered me from that situation, has has apparently delivered you too (you survived it anyway). 

God doesn't orchestrate all things the way you said. He orchestrates what humanity does into the only good that can come of all sins (whether they meet with our expectations or not)... those who believe in Christ Jesus will be saved from the eternal hell humanity is otherwise ALREADY destined for (John 3:18).

You mischaracterized what I said and how God deals with all sin. God loves us so much he gave his only Son to save us.

The first sentence of the quote you posted made by me is "As an abused child, I can not believe that my abuse was orchestrated by God." 

I don't blame God. I blame the perpetrators. Without God, I would not be able to make it through the day. 

Thanks for your judgement anyway. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ozarkbound

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

The first sentence of the quote you posted made by me is "As an abused child, I can not believe that my abuse was orchestrated by God." 

I don't blame God. I blame the perpetrators. Without God, I would not be able to make it through the day. 

Thanks for your judgement anyway. 

God orchestrates the good and the evil that exists. He does not CAUSE the evil to exist. You repeatedly misinterpret my point that he uses all things (including our abuses and much worse in other people's lives) to mean he CAUSES evil. He does not. The devil, his fallen angels, and people  cause evil.

Evil is the result of not saying, thinking, or doing things God's GOOD way.

Again, I am sorry about your abuse. I have gotten over mine. It lasted two years. It took decades to get over. But I have. I pray you have (or will) too! And I am glad you do not blame God.

Be blessed!

 

[appy]

7 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

Please tell me what good came from me being raped and abused for years starting at the age of 6? Can you not understand how telling someone that the bad things that happened to them were meant for good? The abusers said that too.

Sorry to hear that this has happened to you.

Any type of sexual assault or other abuse is NEVER the fault of the victim. Sexual assault or abuse of any kind committed against another is a sin, but it is NOT the victims sin; it’s the sin of the person who harmed them against their will.

 

7 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

I wish people would stop isolating this verse from the chapter it is in. It leaves out the context. The chapter is about pre-destination. 

Paul in Romans 8:28 isn't eluding that the crime of molestation and rape is a good thing in and of itself. Not at all. Paul is summarizing the many scriptures throughout the Old Testament of which teach us that in spite of unpleasant or painful afflictions in general, of which has been the experience of all believers that His kindness and goodness in our lives will bring comfort, healing, and peace in our hearts that achieve a greater good that pleases Him, namely, the growth of His people in the grace of the Lord Jesus.

God is still with us through it all and that those unpleasant experiences cannot take away from us, who we are in Christ and His plans for our lives. We can know and take comfort in knowing that in Christ, we will indeed have the continued hope, comfort, healing from the pain, and peace in our hearts.

 

7 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

My family still blames me. They still expect me to forgive my mother who is not repentant and would hurt me more if I re-established contact with her. 

But she's your mother they say to guilt me into seeing and forgiving her. Doesn't the fact that she's my mother make it worse?

Forgiveness is NOT the same as reconciliation. We can forgive from the heart while keeping betrayers at a distance. Forgiveness does not allow the person who persists in abusing us, back into our lives, but it does allow the peace of God back into our lives.

When we do not forgive others, we remain in bondage to the other person's wrong. It is impossible to live in complete obedience to God when someone else controls our emotions. Unforgiveness makes us self-focused instead of God-focused and steals our love, peace, and joy. When all we can talk about is how we were wronged, how someone betrayed us, or the wounds we are carrying, we lose sight of the fact that God forgave our ALL of our sins against Him.

Forgiveness does not mean you forget what happened to you, but that you will not remain angry, bitter and resentful about the past or the person who wronged you. Letting the offender off your hook does NOT mean that the offender is off of God's hook. But when we do forgive, we model God’s teachings on kindness, mercy, love, and humility. People cannot see Jesus in us when we are walking in bitterness, resentment and anger.

 

[Ozarkbound]

21 minutes ago, appy said:

Sorry to hear that this has happened to you.

Any type of sexual assault or other abuse is NEVER the fault of the victim. Sexual assault or abuse of any kind committed against another is a sin, but it is NOT the victims sin; it’s the sin of the person who harmed them against their will.

 

Paul in Romans 8:28 isn't eluding that the crime of molestation and rape is a good thing in and of itself. Not at all. Paul is summarizing the many scriptures throughout the Old Testament of which teach us that in spite of unpleasant or painful afflictions in general, of which has been the experience of all believers that His kindness and goodness in our lives will bring comfort, healing, and peace in our hearts that achieve a greater good that pleases Him, namely, the growth of His people in the grace of the Lord Jesus.

God is still with us through it all and that those unpleasant experiences cannot take away from us, who we are in Christ and His plans for our lives. We can know and take comfort in knowing that in Christ, we will indeed have the continued hope, comfort, healing from the pain, and peace in our hearts.

 

Forgiveness is NOT the same as reconciliation. We can forgive from the heart while keeping betrayers at a distance. Forgiveness does not allow the person who persists in abusing us, back into our lives, but it does allow the peace of God back into our lives.

When we do not forgive others, we remain in bondage to the other person's wrong. It is impossible to live in complete obedience to God when someone else controls our emotions. Unforgiveness makes us self-focused instead of God-focused and steals our love, peace, and joy. When all we can talk about is how we were wronged, how someone betrayed us, or the wounds we are carrying, we lose sight of the fact that God forgave our ALL of our sins against Him.

Forgiveness does not mean you forget what happened to you, but that you will not remain angry, bitter and resentful about the past or the person who wronged you. Letting the offender off your hook does NOT mean that the offender is off of God's hook. But when we do forgive, we model God’s teachings on kindness, mercy, love, and humility. People cannot see Jesus in us when we are walking in bitterness, resentment and anger.

 

I am not bitter. I have a wonderful life. My mother is dead to me now and my only feeling toward her is indifference. What I take issue with is other family members telling me how I should feel and relate to her. I stay away from them too and am enjoying my retirement with my husband, children and grandchildren and good friends.

I have no biblical instruction to forgive since the abuser has not repented.

Christ himself listed repentence as a criteria for forgiveness.

Luke 

³ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

http://www.luke173ministries.org/466809

Abusers would just love an excuse to obligate us to forgive them without the slightest effort to make amends, commitment to change, or anything expected of them at all.   It’s the Abuser’s Dream Gig- to be able to commit one evil deed after another with impunity, and then pervert the Word of God by claiming that others have to repeatedly and unconditionally forgive her.  This is utter nonsense. 

We are not to cheapen the gift of forgiveness by giving it prematurely or undeservedly, to those who demand it and act as if they are entitled to it, and yet have done nothing to merit it.  The Lord’s higher purpose is to change men’s hearts and make them turn from evil, give up their wicked ways, and choose to follow HIM instead of Satan.  He does that by requiring repentance before forgiveness, not by giving evildoers a free ride. 

            In Luke 17:3, Jesus tells us very clearly that we are to forgive someone who sins against us  IF he repents.   He does NOT tell us to forgive everyone, including those who have  absolutely no remorse and fully intend to continue abusing others and behaving badly.  That would be preposterous and contradictory.  God does not do nonsensical things that do not serve his ultimate purpose of bringing all men into his grace and his presence. 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ozarkbound

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

If I was worried for others, I would pray, but I would also call the police. Doing nothing because "God will handle it" is as evil as participating in the act yourself. 

Repentence comes before forgiveness. This is shown in our relationship with the Father. Christ's first word of his ministry was REPENT.

Since there is no repentence on the part of my abuser, there is no obligation for forgiveness. Without repentence, forgiveness is condoning. 

 

Luke:17 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

² It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

³ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

 

The forgiveness isn't for them, it's for you. 

So you suggest we should not forgive evil acts against us unless there's a quid pro quo?  

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do." 

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
    but deliver us from the evil one.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

We don't have to wait for any action on the part of another to forgive. If you're suggesting I should have waited for my parents to acknowledge the years of emotional abuse before I forgave them for the many offenses then I would suffer under that abuse to this day. I would also not be able to find forgiveness for my sins.

It's pretty likely my wife will never repent to me for the physical and emotional abuse she engaged in while we were married; nor the offenses of the lies and theft and manipulation. So I should hold that offense in my heart till I die because she failed to act in a manner I think is correct? No.

I will act in accordance with the will of my Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. 

We cannot control the actions of others we can only control our own actions. Our actions cannot be based on the actions of others; our reactions must be based on Christ's teaching and the will of our Father. Our thoughts must also align with the will of our Father and none of that must ever be based on the behavior of others.

There's a good chance the abuser doesn't have the insight or self reflection to understand they did something wrong. They may be quite secure in personal belief of the quality of their perceptions and be unable to contemplate repentance.

My parents and my ex wife fall under this category. 

What if your abuser dies before they were able to repent directly to you? Or what if you never saw them again before you passed from this earth? Seems a bit risky to wait for something that may never happen when you have a clear path to your own release of the offense in the will of our Father.

Why live under such a burden; reliving the pain and suffering over and over again? I did that for some time and it's more painful than the initial offense in my mind. 

Day after day of anger and disappointment. Hour by hour engaging in negative self talk, demands for acknowledgement, thoughts of revenge, the painful, fruitless search for "Why?";  minute after minute of depression and thoughts of worthlessness. How many nights of sleeplessness I endured as the seconds turned to hours in the terror of nightmares and later, even worse, the overwhelming and nearly disabling fear of the coming day, I don't even know.

Would I like to see them acknowledge what they did? You bet I would. But I also want it to be under such circumstances and at the right time where I stand innocent in the eyes of my Savior and my Father.

I lived in a personal hell of my own making that was far worse than the abuse I endured. I didn't just dig a pit and climb down in it, I dove in head first and wallowed in the muck. Forgiveness is the fiber of the rope you use to climb out of that pit.

Please begin making that rope.

 

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

Please tell me what good came from me being raped and abused for years starting at the age of 6? Can you not understand how telling someone that the bad things that happened to them were meant for good? The abusers said that too.

My family still blames me. They still expect me to forgive my mother who is not repentant and would hurt me more if I re-established contact with her. 

But she's your mother they say to guilt me into seeing and forgiving her. Doesn't the fact that she's my mother make it worse?

I wish people would stop isolating this verse from the chapter it is in. It leaves out the context. The chapter is about pre-destination. 

I have heard of several people that have gone through terrible ordeals that emerge as powerful forces of change with compelling and equally powerful personal testimonies.

Was what happened good? No way. 

Are you to blame for what happened? No!

Do you have value as a person this day? Yes!!

What happened to you does not make you who you are.

What you do today, right now, makes you who you are.

 

 

[Ozarkbound]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

 

Please stop. I know you mean well, but you are not helping. I know none of this was my fault. I have worked my way through this and am a great place in my life. I don't feel bitter toward my mother, just indifferent.

Telling someone they should forgive is not helpful. All this does is put the onus on the victim to conform while the perpetrator gets a pass. It is very hurtful and  feels like being victimized again.

The biblical model of forgiveness involves repentence. I have made several posts on this topic. If you disagree with it, that is your choice. But stop admonishing me to do something I don't feel the need to do and that I feel would harm me. 

• Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and and if he repent, forgive him.

This is my last post on the subject because I feel like I am not being heard. A familiar feeling when it comes to this topic.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ozarkbound