Paul an Apostle?

[Starise]

On 1/3/2021 at 9:30 AM, SONshine said:

Hey there, bro Starise . . . .Perhaps, for whatever reason, folks get stuck on certain scriptures and forget others.  In Romans 16, it is evident that Paul had great esteem and respect for Priscilla, who he affectionately calls “Prisca” in the book of Acts.  Also, he gives much credit to Phoebe, Junia and others.

Romans 16

16 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Thank you. Point well made!

[Mike Mclees]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:39 PM, Starise said:

I'm going to bring something up that never even entered my grey matter until a close friend I visited last night brought it up.

He has been reading literature online from people who are saying or who have said Paul really isn't a legit Biblical contributor.

He asked me what I thought about it. I simply stated that I would need to study it more to try and see what these teachers are saying and if I can make any sense of it.

A few key points to this view are as follows:

• The words of Jesus and Paul disagree in places
• Paul could have been a wise man but his writings didn't belong in scripture as inspired writings.
• Peter disagreed with Paul and much of what He said as did other theologians who believed the writings of Paul should be excluded from the canon of scripture.

Here's a link to one of the adherents to these ideas-https://jesuswordsonly.com/

 

On 12/28/2020 at 6:37 AM, johnthebaptist said:

I think Paul was an Apostle (he calls himself that) and that he was a very wise man. I think we can learn much from him. I do not believe Apostles were on the same level as God or Jesus.

Could you show these scripture. There are those who would stir untrust in Gods word. These are the days of much deception. Jesus warned us  

Edited January 4, 2021 by Mike Mclees

[johnthebaptist]

3 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

 

Could you show these scripture. There are those who would stir untrust in Gods word. These are the days of much deception. Jesus warned us  

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. 2 Cor 1:1 RSV

[Mike Mclees]

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. 2 Cor 1:1 RSV

Amen!

[Mike Mclees]

6 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

 

Could you show these scripture. There are those who would stir untrust in Gods word. These are the days of much deception. Jesus warned us  

Starise made this coment of which you were not correct. Paul disputed Peter not peter disputed Paul. Galatians 2:11-21   

 

¹¹ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

¹² For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

¹³ And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

¹⁴ But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

¹⁵ We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

¹⁶ Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

¹⁷ But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

¹⁸ For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

¹⁹ For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

²⁰ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

²¹ I do not fustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Who did Paul preach of? Was it not The Gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit. To dispute Paul's position of apostle or not means nothing. Are we not all called to preach the Gospel of Christ?  Paul called himself an apostle.  Who  are we that we should say he made false claims. His call was to lift up Christ and he certainly was inspired by the Lord and His Holy Spirit. Read what he wrote. Peter and Paul also worked together to start the churches in Rome. 

 

 

[SisterWells]

7 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Starise made this coment of which you were not correct. Paul disputed Peter not peter disputed Paul. Galatians 2:11-21   

 

¹¹ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

¹² For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

¹³ And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

¹⁴ But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

¹⁵ We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

¹⁶ Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

¹⁷ But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

¹⁸ For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

¹⁹ For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

²⁰ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

²¹ I do not fustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Who did Paul preach of? Was it not The Gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit. To dispute Paul's position of apostle or not means nothing. Are we not all called to preach the Gospel of Christ?  Paul called himself an apostle.  Who  are we that we should say he made false claims. His call was to lift up Christ and he certainly was inspired by the Lord and His Holy Spirit. Read what he wrote.

Yes, and really they hardly knew each other (became acquainted over a 15 day period). Paul sends this open letter to the Galatians telling his side of the story. Do we have Peter's side of the story?

7 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Peter and Paul also worked together to start the churches in Rome. 

Do we have scripture to confirm that Peter worked together with Paul to start the churches in Rome?

[SisterWells]

On 12/28/2020 at 12:28 PM, Josheb said:

There is some very real and valid concern. One of the most obvious examples is in Acts 15 wherein Paul is instructed teach certain things (such as not eating meat with blood still in it) and when we examine the Pauline epistolary we find a few examples of Paul doing just the opposite! Was Paul being disobedient to both God and man? No, because in most cases Paul provides a rationale that is completely consistent with all that God has said in His word beginning with the beginning right up to the then-contemporary moment of Paul's commentary. For example, we know that an idol is nothing. We know that to be true. Yet, in Paul's day and all the more so in the days of Moses when the "decalogue" was given folks thought idols were something. Paul addresses this fact in simultaneously elegant and blunt terms in the last half of Romans 1. So there is no conflict between Jesus and Paul even when there seemingly appears to be if we rely solely upon the letter of what is written when selectively compared and not the principle and precept of whole scripture. 

Yes, in Acts 15:20 James instructs Paul to teach certain things (such as not eating meat with blood still in it) and James takes it a step further by saying that they will learn the rest on Saturdays at Synagogue.

Paul says an idol is nothing

John says Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[SisterWells]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And all three are correct. 

Fries the brains of Jesuism. 

Besides, you left out Jesus' words. You see, if we don't listen only to Jesus then we get mixed messages. We cannot rely on all of scripture because only Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirt and only Jesus was God. All those other guys were flawed and taught wrong things. 

Get it together SisterWells.  

Oh yeah, I'm not sure if Jesus mentions any of that stuff 

[SisterWells]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then neither should we 

To do so would be..... adding to the words of Jesus!  

Oh, are we at Worthy Jesus Words Onlyists? I guess I didn’t know 

[Starise]

10 minutes ago, SisterWells said:

Oh, are we at Worthy Jesus Words Onlyists? I guess I didn’t know 

I guess "we" encompasses more  than I know about Worthy. I would say the majority are not. I know this is a jib jab from J.

1 hour ago, SisterWells said:

Yes, in Acts 15:20 James instructs Paul to teach certain things (such as not eating meat with blood still in it) and James takes it a step further by saying that they will learn the rest on Saturdays at Synagogue.

Paul says an idol is nothing

John says Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

Most of those who discuss the Saturday worship will say so long as we worship and have a day set apart as the Lord's day this is all that matters. ....but yeah, it was Saturday then. We have been doing it wrong for so long no one will dare admit to this now. Blame the early RCs for that one. 

Idols? The meaning of the term is dual. Yes idols are those things people worshiped instead of God. Yes, they were sometimes carved wood figures or clay. In that sense compared to God Almighty...they are nothin'. In fact anything else that is worshiped instead of God is "nuthin'" in comparison. 

The second meaning in speaking about idols in those times and probably presently is "idols" were real entities sometimes represented as figures. Yes, they are still nothing compared to God, however these were powerful fallen angels who had territories and they could do things for the people. These were the gods thought to be ancient aliens  by a few. Who lived in physical forms at one time....and may still at times. One of the best authors on this subject is Michael S. Heiser. 

This re enforces though why I think Paul's manner of delivery combined with the way we read some translation can sometimes be misleading. If you just read Paul saying that idols are "nothing" when we all know they are "something" it becomes all about context.