Why good men go to hell?

[Your closest friendnt]

11 hours ago, Frits said:

Hi bro Ycf,

The texts 1Jh.1:8 and Rom.3:23 have been discussed several times.  That's why I wrote a piece on Tuesday (2:26 pm) Alive.

From several forums the final question is formulated: is the Christian a righteous one, or is he a sinner ?!

Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (James 3:12)

A lot of Bible passages are about that, from Genesis to Revelation.
It's about solving the sin problem. This makes it particularly worthwhile for us to understand this through and through.
From our knowledge of that one way of salvation of God, which is the Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ, we derive our faith in God. This ultimately determines whether the foundation of our faith is Jesus Christ or not!

Since I think your opinion is very valuable, I would appreciate it if you read that part of Tuesday.
Would you please let me know what you think of the content?  Thanks in advance.

God bless Ycf.

Hi brother Frits,

I read the post and before I take up to comment

(I am not saying I do not like it, but we need to clarify a few things first) 

I am trying to built a the ground to discuss the issues at hand, please let me know what you think of the following passage:

Exodus 15:23-25

23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink the water of Marah because it was bitter; therefore it was named Marah. 24 And the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?” 25 And he cried to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a log, and he threw it into the water, and the water became sweet.

God bless 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:26 AM, Frits said:

For Bro. Alive, for meditation on the basis of God's Word.

(preface)

On all forums in all my posts, there is no meaning to be found in which I deny that I used to be a sinner.
I was a sinner! Yet despite all the sins I have committed, today I am a righteous and good person.  And I owe that to the Lord Jesus Christ, who suffered in my place and because of my sins He died on the cross.
Nor can you find any comment from me that says I am perfect.  To quote Paul, I am not perfect yet but I do pursue it.

Thank you for inviting me, you solve my problem because I was thinking how to go about to discuss these matters. 

I accept your statement above because you begin with your confession of faith that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for your sins, the chastisement of our sins was upon him. 

That's why he can forgive us and everyone who believes in him, because he was punished for our sins. 

You continue with your repentance and your drive to establish your self in a conscience towards God. 

This is commendable. 

Your goal to be righteous and s good person is very much appreciated. 

The same thing we are asked to do in the book of revelation to put on white and fine linen. Chapter two.

The parallel situation was when  the High Priest had to clean himself with water and put on clean ceremonial clothing "white and fine linen", so he can stand before the Lord and handle the Holy vessels in the Temple and not die.

To say you are considering your self a righteous person according to the light that is in you that I accept because you do not claimed this is the reason why you are saved,

(and the facts is that you are spared from doing more sins and the consequences of sin)

as a saved person by faith in Jesus Christ you have repented and you have let go of all unrighteousness  according to your knowledge, that's what we are asked to do.

I take that you understand that if you had died before establishing your self in your individual righteousness you still would go to the Lord because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ on us when we first believe. 

This is it, you are not denying that we are in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ while you are seeking to live a righteous life, and I cannot judge that, because Jesus Christ may have said to you that he has accepted you as you are and he has given you  rest and peace in your heart as a witness to you.

He  may have spoken to you telling you something similar to that.

This is beautiful. 

And your desire to be a good man and not be self center but to do goodness to others and to your family is very much appreciated.

To say that you are striving for perfection, it shows that you're not claiming that you have the goodness of God but that you are still growing as the Lord guides.

You are saying you are under the blood of Jesus Christ and under his grace that takes care of everything. 

That is according to the scripture that we appear before Jesus Christ only in his name and our works or anything else about us is following us.

Revelation 14:13

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

(My Father was a Judge and I have learn little something from him)

That's it for now, later I will say something about 1st John 1:8 

I feel very tired, please pray for me.

Maybe tomorrow or at a later time when I read the post, I may do not like something and go ahead and edit it. 

This is the flexibility with posting. 

One time I heard a preacher lifting up one of his books and saying "I wish I did not have included this chapter in my book", so we cannot say that the authors of a book stopped growing in understanding and by the time we may get to read their articles they wish that they had made different comments than those they did before. 

Pruning and pruning!

We are all subject to it, it's a blessing from Jesus Christ. 

Quote

The fact that I did not go into Rm.3: 23 and 1Jh.1: 8, does not mean that I cannot explain it, or that one of my posts is in conflict with it.

1 John 1: 8 / Rom. 3:23

From the Scriptures we can determine that John resided mainly among his Jewish people, to bring them the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.  He accurately taught those who believed in the "new doctrine," that salvation is possible only through Jesus Christ.  (Act 2:42)
John was considered a 'pillar' among the Jewish believers, which is mentioned in Paul's letter to the Galatians, chapter 2 verse 9.
Clearly, then, John preached and taught primarily among those of "the circumcision."

In explaining John's biblical texts, it is important to see his work against the background of his Jewish audience and readers.
Along with Peter and James, John was pre-eminently the apostle to the Jews, which meant that he and his disciples were constantly dealing with the fanatical leaders of the Jewish religion!
The Jewish scribes and Pharisees thought that they were already righteous outside of the Lamb of God, on the basis of keeping the law.
Moreover, in the religious heart of Jerusalem, the Jews had their temple, they had the priests with their worship, they had the circumcision as a sign of covenant, they had such writings as the Tanakh and the Talmud, and they had the said law that Moses upon a mountain in Arabia had received.  The OT Jews were the people of the Lord God.  Israel had been set apart by God from the other nations, and the Jew had a superiority complex!

The conclusion was that the religious Jews already considered themselves righteous, and thus did not need the Lord Jesus Christ!

Master and apprentice

That is why the Jewish elite of scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees boasted of their special position and looked down on those who did not know the law of God!

"But these people who don't know the law are cursed." (Jh.7:49)

But Jesus pointed out the rottenness of their religious motives, and to those who thought they did not need Him because of their traditions, the Master said:

'Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see;  therefore your sin remaineth.' (Jh.9: 41)

People did not want to accept the tremendous salvation of God through the cleansing of the faith in the blood of the Savior Jesus Christ!  And as for their temple, He spoke that they could destroy it.  Finally, He said, it would be completely and definitively given up. (Mt.23:38)

The teachings of the Torah and Talmud that the Jewish leaders imposed on the people, could fulfill the purpose God had set - 'Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.' The haughty Jewish Pharisees thought otherwise!  In a parable that the Lord Jesus Himself gave about this, we read of such a Jewish religious fanatic:

'The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.' (Luke 18:11)

It is the very religious elite of the Jewish people with whom the Lord Jesus constantly clashed and who eventually killed Him!
The temple teachers of Jewish doctrine of duty could not accept that the Lord Jesus preached repentance and forgiveness of sins outside of their religion!  According to the Torah scholars, outwardly they had to live exactly by the law, while at the same time clinging to the darkness in their hearts. However, whoever kept out of the duty of the Torah and lived according to Jerusalem in the Jewish tradition, was mutually accepted and honored from them.
That was precisely the theme that the apostle John also had to deal with, when he went to testify among his Jewish people after the Day of Pentecost.
Just like his Lord, he too came into conflict with the teachings of the Jewish scribes because of the theme 'sin'.

The apostle John was not a Calvinist theologian, who here makes a case for the original sin theory. The concept of original sin does not even occur in Jewish tradition.
But to those who thought that they had no sin in keeping the law so strictly before the Jewish outside watch, John wrote that they were thereby deceiving themselves:

'If we (Superior Jews) say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' (1Jh.1:8)

All the Gentiles without God's law were sinners, that was the Jewish belief.
For the same reason given by the Apostle Paul, John says that the Jews also sinned,  they have all sinned!  Also the Jews with God's law could not fulfill God's ultimate goal to live righteously and holy. (Rm.3:23) The burden of sin stood in everyone's way!
Every person needs the Lord Jesus as the Savior of sins if he or she wants to become a righteous person.
In the abolition of sin through faith in Jesus Christ, the principle also applies to this John text: 'first for the Jew, but also for the Greek'. (Rm. 2:9,10)

The sin problem

It is stated in Scripture that the sinner is a slave to sin!  Anyone who has worked very much in his iniquity earns great negative wages (debt) in heaven. The gross sinner has much guilt of sin! (Lc.7: 40-50)
Anyone who personally accepts Jesus Christ as Savior and firmly believes that He has also paid the price on Golgotha for his entire sin-debt, is thereby legally free from sin and guilt.  Hallelujah!  The moment the sinner does that one act of faith in Jesus' finished work, he is transformed into a righteous man. (Rm.5:1) Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ he has now become a righteous person. Now does this mean that he is already perfect?  No. That requires the 'growing up' of the 'new righteous man'.  (Eph.4:24 and 1Peter 2:2)
The path of faith that Jesus points out in His teaching really brings the sinner to life, causing him to arise as righteous. Then the growth power of the Holy Spirit brings this righteous man concretely into the form of the perfect man of God!  (Mt.5:48 and 2Tim.3:17) The growth of righteous people to perfection is a process, compared to walking the 'high' or 'holy way' on which Jesus is our Leader.  By justification the believing person is placed on the 'high road'. For it is written from the way of God: 'the unclean shall not pass over it' but 'the redeemed shall walk there'. (Isa.35:8,9)
The great salvation consists of the sinner believing in God and accepting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The sinner (Gentile or Jew) who says he has no sin makes Him a liar.  But whoever says he is still a sinner after accepting Jesus as the Savior of sins, makes His words and His work of no effect!
However, as long as the righteous man remains in the words of God, he cannot sin.  That's what John wrote in the third chapter of the same letter:

'Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.' (1Jh.3:9)

Man cannot achieve this on his own, but all things are possible to God. To walk in righteousness as God intended for His children from eternity, the righteous may therefore pray and receive His Spirit. (*) (Eph.2:10)

The born-again man may therefore no longer say that he is still a sinner, if he really believes that the Lord Jesus Christ has adequately paid for his sins. (Rm.5:8)

Like Orthodox Jewish teachings, parts of the Confession of Faith, and of the Heidelberg Catechism are diametrically opposed to the truth of the Kingdom of Heaven, such as the "doctrine of baptisms."  (Mark 16:16)
Note that according to Jesus, believing comes first and then baptism in water and the Spirit!
So it is imperative that faith in the baptism of the Holy Ghost follows faith in justification.

To his conversion, his belief in the 'burial' of the old sinner, and the resurrection of the new righteous man from the dead, the believer should bear witness by total immersion in (baptizo) and resurrection from a water bath.  (Col.2:12)
This is the express command of thr Lord Jesus to every believing man and woman who will obediently do what He has said.

'I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.'  (1Jh.2: 12)

(*) In other words, a person who does not fully believe in the redemption through Jesus the Lamb of God, remains an unrighteous person and cannot receive the baptism of God's Spirit!
And whoever consciously denies baptism by immersion in water will not make use of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, so that the Power and the guidance of God's Spirit cannot become reality!  After all, the Kingdom of God is not divided and what the Lord Jesus spoke during His preaching still applies today.

'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' (Jh.3: 5)

An insurmountable dilemma for the Jewish doctrine of duty, because people do not take new birth into account and in fact do not love Jesus and His words!
By not making use of adult baptism, man misses the 'gift of God', while he needs that very Power of God to be able to resist the powers of sin, to rule over them. (Gen.4: 7 and Eph.6:12)
The Holy Spirit, who receives the righteous prayer in faith, wants to take everything necessary from God and give it to him.  But concrete justice on the part of man is the first condition.

(appendix)

A righteous one and then?

The "doctrine of baptisms" is a fundamental Biblical concept in Heb.6:2, but it contrasts sharply with some passages from the Heidelberg Catechism and the Confession of Faith.

'Baptisms', here plural of the noun 'baptism'. So not only in water, but also with the Holy Spirit (and even with fire).

The Lord Jesus explicitly instructs His followers:

'For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.' (Jh.13:15)

It is in stark contrast to some passages from the Heidelberg Catechism and that of the (CRC / PRC) Confession of Faith.

It states that the believing man "is inclined to all evil" and that "his sins are increasing daily"!  And his "best works are defiled with sin."

The Confession of Faith also adds that even “baptism” does not “destroy” sin completely.
In this un-Scriptural picture, man is doomed to remain a sinner.
For those who think logically, the question immediately arises, what difference then does the unbelieving sinner make with the believing man who has been redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ from his sins?!
It is easy to understand that people who adhere to such a false doctrine lose all courage, and believe that they can never become righteous on this side of the grave.
While the Bible clearly teaches us that the sinner who comes to faith in Jesus Christ, his sins are completely taken away. (1Jh.3:5) He has allowed himself to be washed and is now justified. (1Cor.6:11)
The man who has no knowledge of God's Word will have to confess that he remains a sinner all his life! (Hos.4:6)
The Heidelberg Catechism as well as the Geneva Catechism were invented by Olevianus, Ursinus, and the Frenchman Jehan Cauvin (Calvin). Their doctrines culminated in “corpus doctrinae” within today's CRC / PRC churches. The Confession of Faith is written by Guido de Brès, who in turn was a student of Calvin at the Geneva Academy.
All their writings are full of doctrines that seek to demonstrate the utter depravity of man but which, like Catholic tradition, the Jewish Kabbalah and Talmud, are nowhere else in Scripture!  (Mark 7:7)

How completely different is the Word of God in the Bible, in which God the Father very clearly presents to His children from His loving father's heart the good news:

“And this were some of you;  but you are washed, but you are sanctified,
but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. ”

May our Lord Jesus Christ bless you.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

18 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hi brother Frits,

I read the post and before I take up to comment

(I am not saying I do not like it, but we need to clarify a few things first) 

I am trying to built a the ground to discuss the issues at hand, please let me know what you think of the following passage:

Exodus 15:23-25

23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink the water of Marah because it was bitter; therefore it was named Marah. 24 And the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?” 25 And he cried to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a log, and he threw it into the water, and the water became sweet.

God bless 

Bro Ycf,

Thank you for quoting Exodus 15: 23-25.  I will give a concise presentation of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus by means of this Bible text.
When the people came to Marah, the water was bitter and not fit for drinking.
After the mediator Moses prayed to God and threw a log, the water became 100% sweet.
So it has been with the Mediator Jesus Christ as far as our lives are concerned!
At first we were bitter and useless because of sin. But when the precious blood of Jesus the Lamb of God was poured out for us, we became “sweet” and useful to God.
That is the essence of His Gospel. The man who accepts Him as God and as the eraser of sin is no longer a sinner, but became a righteous man. (Rm.5:1)
But from that moment on, that man saved by the Lord Jesus may no longer confess or say that he is a 'bitter' sinner!  After all, there can be no fresh water and bitter water at the same time!
Anyone who has thus become a 'new creation' has left behind the old bitter life for good.
Have you ever heard, bro Ycf, that the Lord puts our sins away from us 'as far as the east from the west' is? So recalling your old sinful existence to identify yourself with it once more, is pointless: when you have arrived in the East, the West is just that far away!  (Ps.103)
Thanks to the grace of our good God!

God's blessings upon you.

[Frits]

9 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I feel very tired, please pray for me.

Bro Ycf,

It was already clear to me that you understand the Gospel of the Lord Jesus. This is an additional confirmation of that, thank you.

I would recommend that you rest well and relax regularly, I do. Your response is in no hurry, even if it takes a week, or if necessary you leave it out. It certainly doesn't lessen my appreciation for you as a brother in the Lord Jesus Christ!

I pray for you, the Lord Jesus may bless you with His peace and joy.

Bro. Frits

[theThinker]

On 1/6/2021 at 9:46 AM, Mike Mclees said:

Many have said why would a good man go to hell? That is why I will not believe in God as Christians. Would you believe God does not send people to hell. Not even sinful ones. 2 Peter 3:9 God is patient not wanting any to perish, but for everyone to come to repentence .

So God is not quick to punish. Romans 3:23 says All have sinned and come of the glory of God.

2 Peter   but God is longsuffering to us not willing that any should perish. 

So even though the issue is being sinful is not sin that will send us to hell, but that we  would not come to the one would who died to save us from our sin.

____________________________________________________________

Mike, set aside church dogma, and look up the meaning of the Hebrew word- Sheol, translated as "Hell" and the Greek word - Hades. RELIGIOUS definitions have been added, so just focus on their LITERAL meanings!

Religion has WARPED the meaning of "death" beyond recognition!

For, they claim, we are IMMORTAL SOULS housed in these bodies, which float away when the 'body' dies (their version of "die"), then float back in (their version of "resurrection").

We aren't, and that is not true.

THEN begin a thorough reading/study of the Bible by reading Genesis- where GOD HIMSELF tells us what a soul REALLY is- and what DEATH really is!

 

 

[Uber Genius]

On 1/6/2021 at 1:00 PM, Josheb said:

Basically I am the way the truth ans life and no man shall come to the Father except by Him 

Here is your first quote of 

 

On 1/6/2021 at 1:00 PM, Josheb said:

Thanks, but that is not an answer to my question. I am not asking you to quote more scripture. I can do that on my own. I asked a very specific question. I asked you the question specifically about things you posted AND I worded my inquiry so that it could be answered in a yes or no manner. 

Would you please answer the question asked. 

But Mike's actual quote was "Basically yes"

On 1/6/2021 at 12:56 PM, Mike Mclees said:

Basically yes As Jesus said "I am the way the truth ans life and no man shall come to the Father except by Him "

The Lord said "I call heaven and earth to the record this day against you that have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life that both you and your seed may live   Deut 30: 19

You edited Mike's post deleting "yes As Jesus said."

I did'nt know we could edit quotes but I have been away for awhile and perhaps knew it years ago. Secondly, it took several steps for me to try it myself. I made many attempts to see if randomly it would delete texts portions inside the center of a string of characters. No luck.

This leads me to believe that this wasn't a technology glitch. It also wasn't selecting a text and the beginning or end of the cursor slipped selecting only a portion. If I'm wrong then please explain. Else, why delete a person's response and then harangue them for not providing an answer?

he clearly answer "Yes."

i make mistakes all the time, and my phone and tablet have autocorrect which makes some extremely unfortunate choices from time to time. I often, when multitasking mistake homophones or worse my autocorrect chooses the wrong spelling replacing a properly spread word with another. But this doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

 

[Uber Genius]

11 minutes ago, Josheb said:

What was the question I asked Mike?

Page 1

2nd response to Mike's post

"Let me make sure I understand this. Is your basic point this: God doesn't send folks to hell; they choose it themselves. Is that the point you're trying to make?"

First two words of Mike's response was "Basically yes." 

But the yes and three other words got deleted in your quote. Making the quote a fabrication. Or perhaps some freak technical glitch as my post suggests.

[Your closest friendnt]

"Basically Yes that what Jesus said:"

It may denote that we can not denied what Jesus said: because it is there for anyone to read it.

But it includes that this is not the end of this. 

It hinds unto something that at the conclusion it will paraphrase what Jesus said to make it say "little by little, step by step, a little hear and a little there, precept upon precept, dictionary upon dictionary, a little out of context hear and there, and put the fear on people not to disagree, and it is all done.

At the end they have Jesus saying something else than what he said in the scripture. 

In other words, people use scriptures to support their own explanations. 

They do not study the scriptures, but are looking to find something in the bible to make it appear is scripture base. 

"Basically yes" it sows that what the scriptures say but we are not in agreement as to what they mean. Or we are in disagreement of what they mean. 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[steve morrow]

IS  HELL  A  PLACE  FOR  GOOD / RIGHTEOUS  PEOPLE

HEBREWS 2:1  THEREFORE  WE  OUGHT  TO GIVE  THE  MORE  EARNEST  HEED  TO  THE  THINGS  WHICH  WE  HAVE  HEARD  LEST  AT  ANY  TME  WE  SHOULD  LET  THEM  SLIP

 

JOHN 5:28  marvel not at this for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear  HIS  VOICE    

--5:29-- AND  SHALL  COME  FORTH  THEY  THAT  HAVE  DONE  GOOD  UNTO  THE  RSURRECTION  OF  LIFE  AND  THEY  THAT  HAVE  DONE  EVIL  UNTO  THE  RESURRECTION  OF  DAMNATION

PSALM 9:17  THE  WICKED  SHALL  BE  TURNED  INTO  HELL  AND  ALL  THE  NATIONS  THAT  FORGET  GOD

 

PROVERBS 16:18  pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall

PROVERBS 18:12  before destruction the heart of man is haughty and before honor is --HUMILITY--

ISAIAH 10:53  behold  THE  LORD  THE  LORD  of hosts shall lop the bough with terror and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down and the haughty --SHALL  BE  HUMBLED--

 

1 PETER 3:10  FOR  HE  THAT  WILL  LOVE  LIFE  AND  SEE  GOOD  DAYS  LET  HIM  REFRAIN  HIS  TONGUE  FROM  EVIL  AND  HIS  LIPS  THAT  THEY  SPEAK -- NO GUILE --

--3:11-- LET  HIM  ESCHEW  EVIL  AND  DO  GOOD  LET  HIM  SPEAK  PEACE  AND  ENSUE  IT 

--3:12-- FOR  THE  EYES  OF  THE  LORD  ARE  OVER  THE  RIGHTEOUS  AND  HIS  EARS  ARE  OPEN  TO  THEIR  PRAYERS  --- BUT  THE  FACE  OF  THE  LORD  IS  AGAINST  THEM  THAT  DO  EVIL ---

 

REVELATION 2:11  HE  THAT  HATH  AN  EAR  LET  HIM  HEAR  WHAT  THE  SPIRIT  SAITH  UNTO  THE  CHURCHES  HE  THAT  OVERCOMETH  ---SHALL  NOT  BE  HURT  OF  THE  SECOND  DEATH--

 

               *************************************************

JOHN 5:29  AND  SHALL  COME  FORTH  THEY  THAT  HAVE  DONE  GOOD  UNTO  THE  RESURRECTION  OF  LIFE  AND  THEY  THAT  HAVE  DONE  EVIL  UNTO  THE  RESURRECTION  OF  DAMNATION

               *************************************************

ISAIAH 5:20  WOE  UNTO  THEM  THAT  CALL  EVIL  GOOD  AND  GOOD  EVIL  THAT  PUT  DARKNESS  FOR  LIGHT  AND  LIGHT  FOR  DARKNESS  THAT  PUT  BITTER  FOR  SWEET  AND  SWEET  FOR  BITTER

               *************************************************

 

PHILIPPIANS 1:27  only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of  CHRIST  that whether I come see you or else be absent I may hear of your affairs that you stand fast in one spirit with one mind --STRIVING  TOGETHER-- for the faith of the gospel

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST