The Law Of Moses

[apothanein kerdos]

You averted what was said though. That righteousness no longer comes by the law. Either this statement is in contradiction to the rest of the scriptures you bring up or your interpretation of them is flawed. The reason for this is that the Greek context doesn't lie. Even if taken in a broader context this scripture can't mean anything but "terminate" simply because of the Greek structure. I happen to believe your interpretation is flawed.

No one is saying you can't follow the law or that it's wrong to. What we are saying is our righteousness is not dependant upon the law or our observance to it. If I choose to eat pork, though it may give me a good ole' stomach ache, it isn't a sin. If I choose to observe the Sabbath on a Thursday instead of a Friday evening to Saturday evening, then I have excersized the liberty I hold within grace, that while holding to the spirit of the law by having a Sabbath I have not held to the letter of the law that we are free from. IF I choose to shave my face though I may end up with razor burn I have committed no sin (remember, it is forbidden in the Torah). My righteousness, my perfection in Christ, the good work Christ is completing within me, has nothing to do with the law but instead with the Spirit of the law that Christ has laid upon my heart. That is scriptural, and anyone who denies it goes against what Paul taught while inspired by the Holy Spirit.

[M45510G1C]

I have not suggested that righteousness has ever come from the Law. If you wish to eat a bacon double cheeseburger while shaving your face on Saturday you go right on ahead. I do not think that you will be damned for it (though you may find it difficult). I do, however, believe that Yeshua spoke of keeping Torah when He said

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

I have yet to see an argument to the contrary.

It is clear from this passage that while it is possible to attain salvation without Torah, it is not G-d's ideal plan for us.

[Guest Zayit]

For you whom still live according to the OT Law...if I ever meet any of you...you'd better have a beard, the appropriate garments, and no hot dogs in your fridge... or, quite frankly, I think I'm gonna be shouting "hypocrite".

God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am a woman, no beard, appropriate garments, well if you mean none that have linen and wool mixed, l'm good to go, and hot dogs? I do have them in my fridge, and in fact one in my belly as I just had one for lunch, it was Hebrew National ( no cockroaches added like unkosher ones;) ) , you got a problem with that?

You can Twist and Shout Hali, won't bother me none!

[Guest Zayit]

Believe it or not, at this point I'm ready to just throw my hands up and say "whatever!"

Jesus Christ has come into my life and transformed me into a new creature. I have been born again by His Spirit. I have been sealed unto the day of redemption.

Are we now going to try and improve upon that with observance of the Law?

So, is it "Jesus + observance of the Law" that now saves?

If anyone thinks so they nead to read the epistles of Galatians and Romans a few times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why does everyone mix Salvation with obedience? This I don't understand,

Please tell me what YOU think "If you love me keep my commandmenst" means to you.

[Guest Zayit]

I speak only for myself.  I beleive that faith in the Messiah is most certainly what saves us.  We all transgress the Law.  However, G-d would very much like us to walk according to His instruction (His Torah).  Yeshua said:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

and I believe is was Torah to which He was referring here.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

This is a restatement of the original problem; some people came from Jerusalem and taught that circumcision of Gentiles was needed to satisfy the Torah. "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1). No mention was made of keeping the entire Torah by these men.

The Greek: legontes peritemnesthai kai terein ton nomon literally reads, "saying to be circumcised and so to keep the Law." The grammar in this verse makes it clear that the last part of the phrase (terein ton nomon-"to keep the Law") refers to a one time act. The Greek conjunction kai ("and so") is used here to emphasize the result of the preceding action peritemnesthai ("to be circumcised"). For the Gentiles, "to be circumcised" would enable them "to keep the Law." The Jewish men who had come to Antioch were simply teaching that it was necessary to circumcise the Gentiles in order to conform to the Torah. The subject was NOT the entire Law, but a single issue.

I don't think that anyone is here preaching that we must keep Torah to be saved. However, it is a wonderful thing to do. It is also something which we are free to do in Messiah. Keeping Torah is about being in love, not being in bondage. If you cannot understand that then it is best that you not keep Torah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keeping Torah is about being in love,.......... not being in bondage.

If you cannot understand that then it is best that you not keep Torah.

Halleluyah

Halleluyah

Halle-lu-Yah!

Baruch HaShem!

[apothanein kerdos]

I have not suggested that righteousness has ever come from the Law.  If you wish to eat a bacon double cheeseburger while shaving your face on Saturday you go right on ahead.  I do not think that you will be damned for it (though you may find it difficult).  I do, however, believe that Yeshua spoke of keeping Torah when He said

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

I have yet to see an argument to the contrary. 

It is clear from this passage that while it is possible to attain salvation without Torah, it is not G-d's ideal plan for us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both Romans and Galatians give ample evidence that the law has nothing to do with the way you interpret this verse in Matthew. For one, He is not talking about the Torah at all. He is talking about the commandments He had given prior. It wouldn't make any contextual sense on why He would command them one thing, and then refer to the Torah. Instead, Jesus was saying He would fulfill the Torah by following it perfectly and becomming a sacrifice. Their righteousness and perfection, however, would not follow the Torah but instead what Christ taught. We are not perfected, holier, or any better off by following the torah than we are if don't follow it. Again, this is absolutely clear from Romans and Galatians, the two books that cover extensively the problem of "converted" Jews trying to get Gentiles to revert to the Torah laws.

[Guest Zayit]

The law pointed us to righteousness and still does today.

[apothanein kerdos]

Did you forget that the New Testament is equal to the Old Testament? So what do you have to say about Paul's discourse on the Law in Romans and Galatians?

[Guest Zayit]

Why does everyone mix Salvation with obedience? This I don't understand,

Please tell me what YOU think "If you love me keep my commandments" means to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please

[Guest Zayit]

Another thing I keep asking and no one will answer:

Tell me, and I have asked this before but no one wants to answer, If you are in the New Covenant , which laws are written upon your heart?