THE ESSENCE OF JESUS MESSAGE

[Tristen]

6 hours ago, Questioning said:

That's what I decided, but was in the Church of Christ where they basically had set up a strict set of rules and rituals you had to go by to gain salvation.  I got branded as liberal and almost totally ignored.

“That's what I decided, but was in the Church of Christ where they basically had set up a strict set of rules and rituals you had to go by to gain salvation. I got branded as liberal and almost totally ignored”

I feel like I have to be cautious here. The term “liberal” Christian usually refers to those compromising Biblical morality in an attempt to appeal to outsiders. Christians are not subject to a list of written rules, but that does not mean anything goes.

Romans 3:8 - And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Romans 6:1-2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

1 Corinthians 9:21 - to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law

Ephesians 4:17-24 - This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Galatians 5:13 - For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh.

Galatians 6:7-8 - Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

I'm not pretending to know your circumstances. Jesus and the Apostles also suffered at the hands of the religious who were determined to subject Christians to the Law.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

 

“But that was Jesus answer to the question of what is the greatest commandment. How could it be an important secondary message?”

Loving God is “secondary” to the Gospel message of salvation - in the same sense that loving people is “second” to loving God (Mark 12:28-31).

- The purpose of our creation is to dwell with God forever. Jesus did not suffer the cross just to remind us to love God and each other. His death was a sacrifice for our sins – to save us from just accountability due us because of our sins; to wash us clean and thereby reconcile us to God forever.

- Furthermore, we can not love with God's love until God saves us. That is, we can not keep the commandment to love without God's direct influence in our life.

1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us

Salvation itself is initiated by God's love (“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” - John 3:16)

Love is a fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22) – and not something we can do on our own.

- The primary (or “core”) message of scripture is to reveal God's plan for the salvation of corrupted humanity. A “secondary” (or subsequent) message is how we should respond to that love – i.e. having received His salvation by faith, we should endeavour to respond in kind by loving both God and people.

The reason this is an important distinction is because I've had conversations with non-believers who try to dismiss the Gospel aspect of Christianity for the errant premise that 'All religions are the same – basically saying we should be nice to each other'. However, the superlative “message” of Christianity is the Gospel of Christ – that we are all condemned by our sin, but then God has provided us a pathway to pardon. And our response to this offer of salvation determines our everlasting destiny. That Gospel “message” is the reason Christianity exists. Every other “message” in Christianity is supplemental to that Gospel.

 

“The words are to love neighbor "as self". I take that to mean we should love neighbor the same as self. We have equal importance”

No question that we are important. Jesus suffered the cross to purchase our pardon. There is no higher price.

Nevertheless, to walk in love means to place the best interests of others above ourself – As Jesus did for us when He sacrificed Himself to save us.

 

[Thomas V]

In my opinion, the divisions began with Paul. The Lord gave him one job by his own admission. He told him to go and preach his gospel to the Gentiles. He did far more than that. Paul addresses this splintering somewhat in 1st Corinthians when he chastises those who were at Corinth. He said such are the behaviors of carnal men then he turned around and called them wise in Christ. His teaching is all over the place. Personally, I think Peter was just being kind and focused on keeping the peace in supporting Paul's "hard to understand" teaching. 

I believe he had good intentions but carnal men will be carnal men. 

As far as Jesus's message,

Paraphrased:

"have faith unto obedience to the words that I speak and my Father will love you and I will love you and will manifest myself to you and We will come and dwell with you"

Once you have died and risen in Christ, he will teach you all you need to know by the anointing and that to me was the simple message of the gospel.

"Out of genuine love and desire, strive and attain the Kingdom of God and everything else you need to know will follow."

That's really the only race that matters  in this life.

Glory to God in Jesus Christ. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Thomas V

[Waggles]

19 hours ago, Questioning said:

So I got a red letter edition of the New Testament and read the words attributed to him.  When I looked at the essence of his teaching and living, I noticed it wasn't about a bunch of rules and rituals, and the right day to worship, the way to worship, or even the proper way to be saved, etc.

Only in contrast to the previous Covenant based on Moses and the Law. Yes there is liberty in Jesus in respect to living unto God that is free from the theocracy of the Levitical priesthood and the Temple. Now the gospel is to redeem all the nations and open to the "gentiles" of the world:

Rev 7:9  After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

BUT there are plenty of warnings and commandments from Jesus about doing things the correct way that is pleasing to God > obedience is required.

One example is water baptism which is commanded to be done by Jesus and the apostles and clearly reiterated in the epistles, BUT there are many churches that do not uphold this fundamental commandment.

What then? How does God respond to this? Are they saved? Will God overlook this? 

John 14:23  Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 
24  Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 

Matt 7:21  “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Waggles

[Questioning]

5 hours ago, Tristen said:

 

I feel like I have to be cautious here. The term “liberal” Christian usually refers to those compromising Biblical morality in an attempt to appeal to outsiders. Christians are not subject to a list of written rules, but that does not mean anything goes.

 

Why do you feel like you have to be cautious here?  If you are familiar with the Southern Church of Christ you know that if you disagree with their rigid rules, you are considered liberal.  

 

5 hours ago, Tristen said:

 

Nevertheless, to walk in love means to place the best interests of others above ourself – As Jesus did for us when He sacrificed Himself to save us.

 

I stand by what Jesus said.  He said to love God and neighbor AS SELF.  Not more than self.  And that was the answer to the question about the greatest commandment.  Did he make a mistake?  

Edited February 12, 2021 by Questioning

[hdtwice]

5 hours ago, Waggles said:

 BUT there are many churches that do not uphold this fundamental commandment.

 Curious about this.  Do these churches just don't feel it's necessary so they don't offer it or are they actually against it and tell their people not to do it?

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, Questioning said:

Why do you feel like you have to be cautious here?  If you are familiar with the Southern Church of Christ you know that if you disagree with their rigid rules, you are considered liberal.  

 

I stand by what Jesus said.  He said to love God and neighbor AS SELF.  Not more than self.  And that was the answer to the question about the greatest commandment.  Did he make a mistake?  

“Why do you feel like you have to be cautious here? If you are familiar with the Southern Church of Christ you know that if you disagree with their rigid rules, you are considered liberal”

I am not “familiar with the Southern Church of Christ”.

'Liberal Christians' is a very specific phrase that usually refers to a so-called 'Christians' who are compromising Biblical morality – and usually with a motive to make the church supposedly more 'relevant' to the world.

Though I also acknowledge that someone may have used this phrase differently – to denigrate someone who is advocating for grace over their legalistic dogma. But I want to be careful not to endorse the former.

 

“I stand by what Jesus said. He said to love God and neighbor AS SELF. Not more than self. And that was the answer to the question about the greatest commandment. Did he make a mistake? ”

Do we really want to play that game?

John 15:12-13 - This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends

Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 12:10 - Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

1 Corinthians 13:4-5 - Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

Galatians 5:13 - For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Ephesians 5:1-2 - Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma

Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her

Philippians 2:3 - Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself

1 John 3:16 - By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Are these all mistakes?   

Because they all describe love as being self-sacrificial.

I would also note that Paul warned Timothy to “turn away” from those who are “lovers of themselves” (2 Timothy 3:1-5).

 

[Frits]

On 2/11/2021 at 6:17 AM, Questioning said:

I posted a question a few days ago but got it in the wrong section.   My forum title comes from something my Grandfather said when I was 8 years old, when he told me I asked more questions than any kid he had seen.  I guess I was born curious because I have always wanted to know "why", and what's over the next hill, and around the next corner.  

I notice here there are different opinions about scripture and it's interpretation, and early on I questioned why there were so many different denominations, and factions even in our church.  I finally decided that Jesus must have known he wouldn't be here for very long and must have left behind the important things we needed to know.  I found it interesting that we have nothing directly from him.  We have only what people said he said.  So I got a red letter edition of the New Testament and read the words attributed to him.  When I looked at the essence of his teaching and living, I noticed it wasn't about a bunch of rules and rituals, and the right day to worship, the way to worship, or even the proper way to be saved, etc.  It was about a different way of life, and was summed up in his answer to the question about the greatest commandment.  Which is to Love God, and neighbor as self.  A simple, profound message, that if followed would give us a different mind set about how we treat each other, and other nations.  We would simply ask, what is in the best interest of "WE", not "ME".  Is that his core message?  Have we got bogged down in other "doctrine"?

Next it came to me that in the Old Testament God gave clear instructions about what he wanted of his followers.  Books on how to do things.  Now my question.  Why didn't God do that in the New Testament??  It appears to be a collection of letters to different congregations about different things going on at that time.  And if God wanted to give a clear, easy to understand message, why have 4 gospels with different emphasis?  Why didn't he give us a clear, easy to understand set of instructions?  It certainly would have saved a lot of arguing over what it all means.

Hi bro Questioning,

I was one of those boys who started asking questions at the age of 8.  (By the way, that never passed.  ;-)
The preaching of our Lord Jesus Christ was about the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, the heavenly reality.
You can enter there only through your faith, through your faith in Jesus Christ: that He is Lord, pray to Him and follow Him.
That there are 4 Gospels writers, the Acts, 13 + 1 letters from Paul, James, 2 from Peter, Jude and 4 more from John, makes it all the more interesting!

They are all part of the doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and we may ask ourselves with every letter and every sentence: why is it here?
The Holy Ghost will answer every question as we walk in faith.
We enter His Kingdom through our faith in God.  By our faith we may there receive gifts — grace from Him.  And by our faith we continue on this High Way and follow Jesus until we have received the fullness in Him.
Then we will also fully know, and we will have an answer from God to all our questions.

Efe 4:13 KJV Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

God bless you.

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, hdtwice said:

 Curious about this.  Do these churches just don't feel it's necessary so they don't offer it or are they actually against it and tell their people not to do it?

I do not know as I have been sprinkled as a youngster in a Lutheran church font and much later as an adult baptised correctly by full immersion. 

I never realised that water baptism was such a controversial issue in various churches until I started using Christian chat and forum sites. 

If you want some answers to your question enjoy the following link

Does water baptism precede regeneration? - General Discussion - Worthy Christian Forums 

But it does raise some profound salvation issues - given that Jesus and the NT uphold full immersion water baptism then what happens when "believers" professing to be disciples of their Lord and God do not obey his commandments? 

[Questioning]

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

 

But it does raise some profound salvation issues - given that Jesus and the NT uphold full immersion water baptism then what happens when "believers" professing to be disciples of their Lord and God do not obey his commandments? 

 

Good question.  And I would add, what about those who don't understand it?  And what about those who have never heard the message?

[Questioning]

6 hours ago, Frits said:

The Holy Ghost will answer every question as we walk in faith.

 

The problem I have with that is, the Holy Ghost seems to give different people different answers to the same question.