Amigo42 Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 266 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 127 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 I ask this question because I believe that a lot of Christians are not prepared to respond to skeptics or people like Bart Ehrman who are scholars of the New Testament. I think that some Christians are too fundamentalist or narrow in a strict definition of inerrant. Is every single word in the Gospels exactly accurate and specific to exactly what occurred in history? Maybe not exactly, but that's not important. The point is that the Gospels give us a general and sometimes specific Outline of the ministry and purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of the details in the between are not as important for Christians to twist themselves into psychological or spiritual knots. Did Jesus walk 20 paces and preach or did he walk 40 paces? How many paces he walked is not important. In reality maybe he only walked 25 paces and neither account of the 20 or the 40 is correct. This is not important or relevant to the Gospel message. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regenerated-Adult Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 This is a difficult subject for many reasons. Personally, I think that the Bible is inerrant as a spiritual book but the surface level written words that we understand intellectually only may not be. For example, in his epistles Paul says things like, "I speak as a man" and so on, thus distinguishing what he has said from what the Spirit is saying. There are also things like greetings to the churches and people in them which seem to be peripheral and not important spiritually. The Old Testament appears to contain some odd passages that are hard to understand in light of God's love. And so on. Bart Erhman can be used by both Christians and skeptics. He says very clearly that he believes that Jesus was a real historical person, thus the Jesus Mythers can't use him in in their arguments. Yet he clearly says many things (That I hold to be contentious and incorrect) against the Bible that skeptics use as fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 Inerrant TRUTH PROPOSITIONS. It is obvious that it took many hands and editors to give us the scriptures. Many versions and some odd translations. But as a whole, it is a theological treatise and is full of TRUTH PROPOSITIONS. Anyone that says there are no textual variations is fundamentally wrong. The KJV only people have missed the texts in the Qumran discoveries. However, the truth propositions are what count. Use you noggin: study well: read scholarly peer-review presentations. Hebrew and Greek are online and the LXX is readily available. Read: study: and study more. Find the truth propositions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amigo42 Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 266 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 127 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 15, 2021 13 minutes ago, Regenerated-Adult said: This is a difficult subject for many reasons. Personally, I think that the Bible is inerrant as a spiritual book but the surface level written words that we understand intellectually only may not be. For example, in his epistles Paul says things like, "I speak as a man" and so on, thus distinguishing what he has said from what the Spirit is saying. There are also things like greetings to the churches and people in them which seem to be peripheral and not important spiritually. The Old Testament appears to contain some odd passages that are hard to understand in light of God's love. And so on. Bart Erhman can be used by both Christians and skeptics. He says very clearly that he believes that Jesus was a real historical person, thus the Jesus Mythers can't use him in in their arguments. Yet he clearly says many things (That I hold to be contentious and incorrect) against the Bible that skeptics use as fodder. I agree that Mr. Ehrman is an interesting character. In one hand, he comes across as a even handed, fair-minded person who gives both sides of a story. He does bring to light some issues that help Christians strengthen their understanding of the Word through the lens of wisdom. However, he also appears to be a disciple of the enemy to attempt to lead some Christians to doubt and disbelief even though he doesn't really say anything new. His arguments have been discussed for centuries, but he sensationalizes it for the masses who are not as well-versed in the spiritual depth of Christianity. My personal opinion is that he was a strict fundamentalist who thought the Bible was word for word perfect, and when he found that wasn't the case he couldn't handle it and went the other way. However, I think common sense would show that God himself did not write Bible though He certainly inspired it. Just because He inspired doesn't mean that every detail is inerrant. Humans are still imperfect, but God used them to present an overall message of His love for mankind. Let me give another example. God created this world and all life perfect because he is perfect. The design and creation of this world and all life is perfect. However, just because our creation is perfect doesn't mean that humans won't get sick or die. Because of sin, it has impacted even the perfect creation that God has made. So, I look at the writing of the Bible in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 30 minutes ago, Amigo42 said: My personal opinion is that he was a strict fundamentalist who thought the Bible was word for word perfect, and when he found that wasn't the case he couldn't handle it and went the other way. That is the great shame of many. One MUST be balanced in understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 31 minutes ago, Amigo42 said: The Old Testament appears to contain some odd passages that are hard to understand in light of God's love. And so on. Name these please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 The core issue I see is whether our faith is in God Himself via relationship or in intellectual propositions we hold about God (including the Bible). If our faith (i.e. trust and confidence) is in God Himself and is based in how He has revealed Himself to us in our lives and made us new creations in Christ, it is a relational type of trust like we might have in loved ones. It will grow over time. If our faith consists of not having doubts about intellectual propositions we hold about God, it's a lifelong struggle to explain away and deal with every doubt we have. Many eventually simply cover their eyes and ears and others have crises of faith when the doubts become too much. Sadly, many of the books and articles written about the Bible come from the perspective of "how to eliminate every intellectual doubt you have" which turns trust in scripture into an all or nothing proposition where the slightest doubt about one thing casts doubt on the entire Bible. Can the Bible be trusted as an adequate revelation of God for salvation through Jesus Christ? Of course. Can the Bible be trusted as a guide to living and belief? Of course. Did God use fallible human beings in the origin and transmission and translation of the Bible? Of course. I think much of what we believe about inerrancy is shown by how we act toward the Bible via how we read it, study it, and follow it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regenerated-Adult Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 36 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: Name these please? Do you know of any? There's passages like God commanding the Israelites to kill babies and animals and even trees I think, that belong to some pagan tribes. If there are reasons for this, I don't know what they are. Do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 11 minutes ago, Regenerated-Adult said: Do you know of any? There's passages like God commanding the Israelites to kill babies and animals and even trees I think, that belong to some pagan tribes. If there are reasons for this, I don't know what they are. Do you? Yes. It is a long story. I suggest you read "Unseen Realm" and "Reversing Hermon" by Dr. Heiser. His videos are on YouTube. You will then understand the Joshua Wars and why. It all began in Gen 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regenerated-Adult Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2021 16 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: Yes. It is a long story. I suggest you read "Unseen Realm" and "Reversing Hermon" by Dr. Heiser. His videos are on YouTube. You will then understand the Joshua Wars and why. It all began in Gen 6. I tried to read some of Heiser's books before but I didn't get very far to be honest. I don't think they read very smoothly and I don't have the patience. Plus I think some of his ideas are fringe. I might check out that book you mentioned and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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