By His stripes we are healed of what?

[appy]

We know that there were times in scripture when healing did not take place. We should never assume that a physical condition remains because of either lack of faith or because of sin. First of all, none of us humans can see into another person's heart and know for certainty that their faith is weak or the church they attend has weak faith.  We simply do not know the purpose of such situations or why some in today's world experience healing and others do not.  

There are people that have recovered from covid-19 and others in spite of their firm faith that God would keep the well, have died from covid-19. I know this to be true, because I have read their obituaries online.  

If God intended for all to be promised perfect health, then Paul, Timothy and Trophimus would have had perfect health from the get go.  And the pastors who contracted Covid-19, would still be with us today. They would not of been excluded from the promise.   The life of the Apostles in Scripture speaks contrary to the idea all Christians will live a life of health, wealth, and a pleasant and happy life.  For they certainly had great faith didn't they? And yet they experienced unpleasantness.   Scripture says Abraham died without having received in his lifetime all that was promised him.

I do like the living bible's paraphrase of 2 Corinthians 12:10

Since I know it is all for Christ’s good, I am quite happy about “the thorn,” and about insults and hardships, persecutions and difficulties; for when I am weak, then I am strong—the less I have, the more I depend on him.

Same verse but NIV

That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Same verse but KJV

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

In summary,

It is NOT wrong to ask God to heal others or ourselves. Nor is it wrong to expect healing to happen.  No one should ever be told that the reason they are sick or their loved one died, is because of a lack of faith or because a past relative sinned. Or sorry, but healing isn't for today.  Being told this has certainly ship wrecked a lot of Christians faith, and/or caused them unnecessary grief.  Instead, we as brothers and sisters in Christ should comfort those who are experiencing discomfort.

 

[Paul James]

9 hours ago, Jacob75 said:

Yes indeed.  Perhaps you missed the significance of Jesus quoting and fulfilling Isaiah.

Jesus used Isaiah only to authenticate His identity as the Prophesied Messiah.  And, He used neither Isaiah nor His healing to indicate all healing should afterwards occur, nor that such wholesale healing is to be expected today.

God's Word is more than descriptive and clear, it gives boundaried definition for us.  Isaiah spoke nothing of the Church healing sickness because of Jesus being the healing Messiah.

 

 

Jesus validated Himself to John's disciples as the One whom John was expecting by describing the miracles and healing He was doing among the people.  Because today the Holy Spirit represents Jesus as if Jesus is still really here, His presence is validated in the same way.  Therefore if there are no supernatural instances of deliverance and healing there is no proof that the Holy Spirit is present and active where people claim Him to be.  Where there is no healing, deliverance, conviction of sin and conversions to Christ, for that church the Holy Spirit remains an indeterminate mist that "hovers" over the meeting but does nothing else of any useful value.

[Jacob75]

No Scripture speaks of any Holy Spirit "mist hovering" in a meeting of Christians.  No Scripture specifies visible Holy Spirit activity as a required sign of Salvation.  

 

 

[Jacob75]

10 hours ago, appy said:

We know that there were times in scripture when healing did not take place. We should never assume that a physical condition remains because of either lack of faith or because of sin. First of all, none of us humans can see into another person's heart and know for certainty that their faith is weak or the church they attend has weak faith.  We simply do not know the purpose of such situations or why some in today's world experience healing and others do not.  

There are people that have recovered from covid-19 and others in spite of their firm faith that God would keep the well, have died from covid-19. I know this to be true, because I have read their obituaries online.  

If God intended for all to be promised perfect health, then Paul, Timothy and Trophimus would have had perfect health from the get go.  And the pastors who contracted Covid-19, would still be with us today. They would not of been excluded from the promise.   The life of the Apostles in Scripture speaks contrary to the idea all Christians will live a life of health, wealth, and a pleasant and happy life.  For they certainly had great faith didn't they? And yet they experienced unpleasantness.   Scripture says Abraham died without having received in his lifetime all that was promised him.

I do like the living bible's paraphrase of 2 Corinthians 12:10

Since I know it is all for Christ’s good, I am quite happy about “the thorn,” and about insults and hardships, persecutions and difficulties; for when I am weak, then I am strong—the less I have, the more I depend on him.

Same verse but NIV

That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Same verse but KJV

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

In summary,

It is NOT wrong to ask God to heal others or ourselves. Nor is it wrong to expect healing to happen.  No one should ever be told that the reason they are sick or their loved one died, is because of a lack of faith or because a past relative sinned. Or sorry, but healing isn't for today.  Being told this has certainly ship wrecked a lot of Christians faith, and/or caused them unnecessary grief.  Instead, we as brothers and sisters in Christ should comfort those who are experiencing discomfort.

 

Jesus' could not do much of anything in His home town because of unbelief.  Jesus stated "Oh ye of little faith" when the Disciples could not heal In Mark 9.

The "conclusion" above is false.  Repent.

[appy]

@Jacob75

 I don't doubt God can heal people today, and there have been people who have said they received a healing. But by the same token, many are not for reason's we may not understand. It doesn't mean they didn't have faith.  It means that God has chosen something else for them.  Paul in contrast to the hometown of Jesus, certainly had faith.  He didn't doubt one iota, and yet God did not heal him of his ailment even though he pled with God. 

As for NAR's beliefs and doctrines, which you asked about in another thread.  I'm not interested in what NAR doctrines teach.  There is some truth mixed in with new age ideas to make it palpable.

 

[Waggles]

On 2/25/2021 at 12:22 PM, Jacob75 said:

No Scripture specifies visible Holy Spirit activity as a required sign of Salvation.  

How wrong can a person be?

Mark 16:15  And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 
16  Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned. 
17  And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues; 
18  and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 

Acts 19:5  And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 
6  And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 

Acts 3:6  But Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but what I have, that give I thee. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean, walk. 
7  And he took him by the right hand, and raised him up: and immediately his feet and ankle-bones received strength. 
8  And leaping up, he stood, and began to walk; and he entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 

The indwelling Holy Spirit is about the power of God made manifest through the faith and lives of disciples > healings, miracles, signs, blessings - and not just for the disciple but also upon many who are prayed for (even those outside the fold). 

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa and Samaria, and unto the uttermost of the earth.

Romans 15:19  in power of signs and wonders, in power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of the Christ;

@Paul James is quite correct - unless your church is full of signs, wonders and miracles; the power of God by his Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is a theoretical construct; a mystery to those who do not have the Spirit of God. 

[Frits]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:10 AM, Paul James said:

Matthew 8:16-17 is quite clear. Perhaps you missed these verses.

Hi Paul James,

In Lk.4:40 it is added that the Lord Jesus laid hands on each sick person separately for healing.

What precious evidence is given here that the Lord Jesus touches the sick person, makes Himself one with him, because His Divine Life is certainly able to heal all disease.
Here we see the great love that God the Father expresses to us in His Son Jesus Christ. Hallelujah!

 

God bless.

[Paul James]

6 hours ago, Waggles said:

How wrong can a person be?

Mark 16:15  And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 
16  Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned. 
17  And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues; 
18  and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 

Acts 19:5  And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 
6  And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 

Acts 3:6  But Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but what I have, that give I thee. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean, walk. 
7  And he took him by the right hand, and raised him up: and immediately his feet and ankle-bones received strength. 
8  And leaping up, he stood, and began to walk; and he entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 

The indwelling Holy Spirit is about the power of God made manifest through the faith and lives of disciples > healings, miracles, signs, blessings - and not just for the disciple but also upon many who are prayed for (even those outside the fold). 

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa and Samaria, and unto the uttermost of the earth.

Romans 15:19  in power of signs and wonders, in power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of the Christ;

@Paul James is quite correct - unless your church is full of signs, wonders and miracles; the power of God by his Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is a theoretical construct; a mystery to those who do not have the Spirit of God. 

The trouble with most of our churches is that they are well below par of what the early church was and so we don't see the signs and wonders that were common in the First Century.   In the same way that Jesus couldn't any mighty works in His home town because of their unbelief, the Holy Spirit can't do any mighty works because of the general attitude of unbelief in our churches.

But there are churches and groups that have the positive attitude of faith in Christ that the early church Christians had, and signs and wonders do happen in those groups.  But, the unbelieving churches are so steeped in their unbelief that even in the light of many testimonies of healing and miracles, they won't believe that these are genuine and do all they can to try and prove they are fake, just like the Jewish Pharisees who actually witnessed the miracles of Jesus, yet refused to believe that He was their Messiah.

[Whyme]

is it possible that the healing miracles were just signs of Jesus and his apostles but are not promised to all people?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 2/22/2021 at 7:20 PM, Paul James said:

Jesus quotes the reference in Matthew 8:16-17.  Here is the passage:

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”

So it is obvious that Jesus' interpretation of the Isaiah reference is to do with divine healing.  Because John quotes Jesus in his gospel (14:12):

 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

When Jesus used the words, "most assuredly" He means what He says is the absolute truth without any doubt at all.  This means that genuine believers can, in the Name of Jesus, heal the sick in the same way He did.   The important point about this is that it has to be genuinely in the Name of Jesus (not just saying in the form of lip service), and not in one's own name as many television healing evangelists do.  Advertising a preacher as "God's man of faith and power" is actually saying that he is ministering healing in his own name and not really in the Name of Jesus.  Also, hero worshiping a special ministry as if the man (William Branham or Oral Roberts) were special people who God endowed something different from ordinary believers, implies that the man is also ministering healing in his own name.  I think this is why many don't get healed under ministries that are the object of hero worship.   But many healings have taken place through some unknown person without any reputation of a healing ministry, but has authentically ministered healing in the Name of Jesus, and the results have happened.

Do you have an independent study that shows that Isaiah 53: was fulfilled in Mathew 8:16,17

I do not question what happened in Matthew 8:16,17,

or John 14:12, or that people are healed in the name of Jesus Christ, I have no problem with that. 

My objection is that "by his stripes we are healed" is fulfilled in Mathew 8:16,17.

Because reading Isaiah 53: its obvious that it cannot be.